75 replies to this topic

[Lofty]

dkw, on Jan 18 2009, 13:43 PM, said:

i can understand you frustration chippy as im in pretty much the same boat on here and with just. ive been close to not bothering coming on here lately due to some of the utter tripe thats been posted and also the amount of people who dont back up their argument with any salient points. i knew as soon as stoke scored the threads wanting scolari out would start and they wouldnt listen to any of facts or lay the blame anywhere else.

Sorry but this sounds very much as if you're writing off opinions that differ from yours as wrong. When I've had a go at Scolari, Iv'e repeatedly backed it up with reasons why I think it was a mistake to appoint him in the first place, including the string of unnacceptably poor performances and results. I've even started an "Excuses" thread. As for yesterday - when it looks, judging by recent results, to all intents and purposes as if we were going to lose to the team with the poorest away record in the league, what do you expect? When Stoke scored, what happened to me, was memories of every one of this season's atrocious home results, from Newcastle to Southend the long way round, came flooding back, I could hear the Stoke fans chanting "you're getting sacked in the morning" and at that precise moment, it was difficult to argue.

Make no mistake about it - Scolari got lucky yesterday, not just with his enforced revised squad selection/substitution, but also, don't forget, we were also very very lucky not to go a goal down in the first minute. Maybe yesterday's result will be a turning point - it'll certainly do wonders for morale. Problem is our general play most of the time - dominating possession but with a painfully slow buildup that makes it easy for teams to defend. Did you see MOTD last night? Lawrenson summed this up perfectly.

[loz]

There have been many times in history where a young player only got their initial chance due to injury/suspension or a fall out. For me what has gone on before is now in the past and Scolari should now be judged on whether he makes the most of the opportunity that has fallen in his lap. His words so far have been encouraging.

However us, as fans, need to be patient with the kids as well they are unlikely to explode into the first team and are going to take time to establish themselves (if they do)

[dkw]

geezer, on Jan 18 2009, 14:01 PM, said:

I disagree.........

you bloody would....

[loz]

I don't think Scolari got lucky yesterday - I think he was very unlucky up until the last 5 minutes. I did thnink his cahnegs were odd (although they worked) however I don't think he could have done much else yesterday. We dominated the match and time and time again failed to put the ball in the net. Other than pulling on his boots and playing himself up front I can't really see how much more Scolari could do about that.

[dkw]

Lofty, on Jan 18 2009, 14:01 PM, said:

Sorry but this sounds very much as if you're writing off opinions that differ from yours as wrong. When I've had a go at Scolari, Iv'e repeatedly backed it up with reasons why I think it was a mistake to appoint him in the first place, including the string of unnacceptably poor performances and results. I've even started an "Excuses" thread. As for yesterday - when it looks, judging by recent results, to all intents and purposes as if we were going to lose to the team with the poorest away record in the league, what do you expect? When Stoke scored, what happened to me, was memories of every one of this season's atrocious home results, from Newcastle to Southend the long way round, came flooding back, I could hear the Stoke fans chanting "you're getting sacked in the morning" and at that precise moment, it was difficult to argue.

Make no mistake about it - Scolari got lucky yesterday, not just with his enforced revised squad selection/substitution, but also, don't forget, we were also very very lucky not to go a goal down in the first minute. Maybe yesterday's result will be a turning point - it'll certainly do wonders for morale. Problem is our general play most of the time - dominating possession but with a painfully slow buildup that makes it easy for teams to defend. Did you see MOTD last night? Lawrenson summed this up perfectly.

it wasnt aimed at you lofty and i have no problem at all with people having a differing opinion to mine. in fact i enjoy debating any points but what i was getting at was people coming on and just saying "scolari should be sacked" and thats all. on yesterdays game to blame scolari was ridiculous, he set the team up ans sent them out and we created loads of chances yet never converted any of them. so i dont see how that could be scolaris fault.

[Lofty]

loz, on Jan 18 2009, 14:07 PM, said:

I don't think Scolari got lucky yesterday - I think he was very unlucky up until the last 5 minutes. I did thnink his cahnegs were odd (although they worked) however I don't think he could have done much else yesterday. We dominated the match and time and time again failed to put the ball in the net. Other than pulling on his boots and playing himself up front I can't really see how much more Scolari could do about that.

Half full / half empty. As I said, when Stoke scored, I was thinking "here we go again", and be honest, before Belletti's equalised, did anyone honestly expect us to win the game? Don't underestimate the effect of luck, whether good or bad. A certain team not a million miles from Birkenhead have been living on their luck for years. I think it's undeniable that we've put in a several diabolical performances this season, but also at times we've been desperately unluckly.

In other words, if you agree that Scolari did get lucky yesterday, and if (another massive if) this is the beginning of a much needed spell of good luck, then getting lucky is no bad thing at all.

[Lofty]

dkw, on Jan 18 2009, 14:10 PM, said:

it wasnt aimed at you lofty and i have no problem at all with people having a differing opinion to mine. in fact i enjoy debating any points but what i was getting at was people coming on and just saying "scolari should be sacked" and thats all. on yesterdays game to blame scolari was ridiculous, he set the team up ans sent them out and we created loads of chances yet never converted any of them. so i dont see how that could be scolaris fault.

Fair enough. One thing I should say, just in case it isn't obvious, is that even though I'm still, how shall I say this? extremely sceptical about Scolari's suitability for the jon, I would dearly love to be proved wrong.

[dkw]

Lofty, on Jan 18 2009, 14:14 PM, said:

Half full / half empty. As I said, when Stoke scored, I was thinking "here we go again", and be honest, before Belletti's equalised, did anyone honestly expect us to win the game? Don't underestimate the effect of luck, whether good or bad. A certain team not a million miles from Birkenhead have been living on their luck for years. I think it's undeniable that we've put in a several diabolical performances this season, but also at times we've been desperately unluckly.

In other words, if you agree that Scolari did get lucky yesterday, and if (another massive if) this is the beginning of a much needed spell of good luck, then getting lucky is no bad thing at all.

i fully agree scolari got lucky, but im also of the thinking that you make your own luck. and speaking of luck, if we had some over the last couple of months we could easily have murdered some teams. we are creating chances other than the utd debacle and as long as were doing that then i think scolairs doing a decent job. if we went 6 or 7 games with barely a single chance then i the criticism would be more than justified and i also would join in. the one thing thats really got to me lately though is the heaping of ALL the blame on scolari when i believe most of the players have deserved a hell of a lot of it. there see, a nice salient argument.

[dkw]

Lofty, on Jan 18 2009, 14:16 PM, said:

Fair enough. One thing I should say, just in case it isn't obvious, is that even though I'm still, how shall I say this? extremely sceptical about Scolari's suitability for the jon, I would dearly love to be proved wrong.

dont know what the jons got to do with it, im sure his toilet habits arent a problem.....

[just]

Chippy, on Jan 18 2009, 13:05 PM, said:

Before I begin let me say I have hated having to write any of this post. But I feel I have had to respond to your post Chippy because it's moving away from football and arguing different views, and becoming personal.



Firstly I will admit that I have been at lash out point for a while and while I'll add that I didn't lash out at you I may of let a bit of pent up frustration out but no more than that I will explain why.

I went through the same thing here with Grant, where the man had been given his Job and tried hard to do it and I still believe he done a good Job.

I had debates with a big percentage of people on the forum and I count the ones with you as the ones where I felt I was being patronised the most, Most other posters had the same outlook as me where we could argue one thing but be friendly the next,

To be frank I'm struggling to remember it. But I'm sorry if you felt I was patronising you in that debate. It's not intentional, perhaps it's how you interpret my style of writing. I tend to write from the heart and not pull punches but I can't write any other way. And we may never have been pally and met up for a beer, nor exchanged PM's, but I don't think we have ever, even once, been unfriendly to each other in our posts. Not that I can remember anyway. In fact the only two things I think we have ever disagreed on was Grant's management and now the club's youth policy.

And I would add I never write posts to purposefully upset anyone. Two times I have written things on here I genuinely regretted. Once to Tim a while back and recently to Butch and Dorset in the thread about JT's challenge against Everton. I knew I was wrong on both occaisions and apologised immediately.

Take Bluebeard as an example...we would disagree on anything football, from the manager to how far up Terry should pull his Socks but if he had a problem and PMd me I would be down to the coast to help him out within an hour and a half.

Take Ethical, we argued nearly to the extent of name calling but in other threads we would agree with each other..

Niether of these made out I had a hidden agenda where if I could twist an outcome to suit me I would come back and say "I told you so"

I'm truly sorry if I inferred that, but I have not, at any point, said you have a hidden agenda. Nor do I think you have one.

There are many examples of people who disagee with me that reading this know I am speaking the truth...Mod we dont agree on much but he knows I dont keep a score,

Loz wants Scolari out..we disagree but do you think I'm out to make him look silly or him me? no because we do it not for people to read our posts and think "Loz knows more than Chippy" or Chippy was right and Bluebeard was wrong" but because we all have opinions and if one of us is right and one wrong then at least we had a good and usually friendly debate about it.

For you to tell me what I would say in any certain event is to put words into my mouth and totally wrong, all I would say in any of the events you so prophetically forecast is that its 's the managers choice and he sees more than I do of those players, I trust his decision.

You trust his decisions and that's fine, but surely, if I don't, I am just entitled to make my point and say why I don't as often as I like. One thing no-one can ever accuse me of is of just making bald statements. I always, always back up my arguments with my reasons and wherever possible, relevant examples.

The raw nerve was touched on because yesterday I was out and missed the first half...I came home and got straight on my favourite friendly site and asked what had been happening, people helped me out and found me a stream to watch and I started debating the second half.

Soon we went behind but I had already been pleased with our commitment and thought we would get back in and that if we didn't at least we were again creating chances and I thought the overall performance was better.

People soon started slagging the manager off and giving up before the end of the game and thats something I can't do..It ruined my enjoyment almost as much as their Goal did and yes I got pissed off.

OK you got pissed off, but surely you can't include me in that!! I made no comment at all on Scolari during the game. And I haven't been one of those asking for him to be sacked. Like you, at this point in time, I really don't see what it would achieve. That's not say he's getting everything right. He plainly isn't. And for me, the opportunities he has given to the youngsters so far, is something he is doing wrong. Though, as ES says, there are signs that may be changing.

I told the forum I was getting off and would likely come back later to defend the manager and said hope we get back in.

when I later look I see your accusing post and the hints at my hidden agenda as if I care if people think you know anything I dont about football...you are really living in a different world to me if you think that.

Oh god. Do you really believe I think like that? Is what I have written, or the way I have made my points, so aggresive or accusing you think that I'm doing it just to try and make me look clever or you stupid? Chippy, couldn't it simply be I am just adding to my argument, making additional points, giving further examples of why these kids should be getting a reasonable chance. Aren't you possibly just being overly sensitive here?

Oh and whatever stoch did with his two touches, to give him MOM would be very disrespectful to the rest of the team and not just the two or three stand out performers who deserved it. IN MY OPINION.

Accepted. But getting back to the topic, (and I really hope we can), I would still love to know if you think any of the youngsters should start next week against Ipswich?

Edited by just, 18 January 2009 - 05:56 PM.

[Chippy]

Just

As I said I may have been a bit over the top with my reaction initially and I have explained in detail why,

That said every time I read back to the part of your post that said



"You're in a win-win situation here Chippy. Scenario 1. Stoch and Di santo come on and don't perform, and we lose. You're line would be, "well perhaps we can all agree now, these lads are not ready yet". Scenario 2. They come on and do a job, (and they did), the line is "well perhaps now we can all agree, Scolari is obviously doing a good job with the kids. This shows he is handling them perfectly" "


It irks me a little bit more,

If I had have written something like that and put words in your mouth that is the part I would be apologising for,

You have made it look like I am willing to twist the situation to make me come across as being right and as I have said there is in my opinion no right or wrong to be found,

for me it is right to trust the manager who is seeing much more of these boys than you or I and if he plays them from the off for ninety minutes and they fail Its not you who was wrong it would be him, if they were great, again its not you who was in the right to me it's him.

I understand you wanting to see them as I do too but I don't understand critisizing him for not doing it without giving him the benefit of the doubt that he thinks they are not quite ready.

They looked good yesterday and I would rather have Di santo at this stage than Drogba purely for team spirit but I can't say that I know he offers as much in a purely footballing sense as I cant say I think Stoch offers more than Joey.

I'm quite happy to trust Scolari with the decision although there will be times I am shouting as loud as you for him to bring one of them on, the difference is if he doesn't do it I won't be giving him stick on here about it.

As for the Ipswich game, again it's hard because it's taken on more importance with the drop in league form and CC exit,

I think Kalou and Malouda both played well enough to warrent a place but I would like to see more of Stoch and Di santo, maybe a look at Mancienne would be good but I dont know if I would rather see us go ahead before we bring them on.

As I say whatever the manager chooses is fine by me but if I was to be manager for a night and my job never depended on it I would likely have a back four of Bosingwa, Mancienne, Terry and Ash. a midfield of Lampard, Belletti, Stoch and Malouda and a front two of Anelka and Di Santo.

Again I would rather Scolari picked the team and chose the tactics than me.


Edit

after again reading your last post I see you have said "I'm truly sorry if I inferred that, but I have not, at any point, said you have a hidden agenda. Nor do I think you have one." and somehow I read it quickly and it didn't sink in.

Does this mean you dont think I would have made something to suit my argument out of either of your hyperthetical scenarios ? If so then that is fine and I am equally sorry if I over reacted in any way.

Here is my outstretched virtual hand, lets shake and move on.

Edited by Chippy, 18 January 2009 - 07:00 PM.

[just]

Chippy, on Jan 18 2009, 18:40 PM, said:

Edit

after again reading your last post I see you have said "I'm truly sorry if I inferred that, but I have not, at any point, said you have a hidden agenda. Nor do I think you have one." and somehow I read it quickly and it didn't sink in.

Does this mean you dont think I would have made something to suit my argument out of either of your hyperthetical scenarios ? If so then that is fine and I am equally sorry if I over reacted in any way.

Here is my outstretched virtual hand, lets shake and move on.

That is exactly, 100% what I was saying there Chippy. Hand shaken and I've already moved on.

And your team for Ipswich is pretty much the same as mine. The only change I'd make, if I could, would be Sinclair on the left in place instead of Malouda. So if were manager I'd be in that office at 8.00am tomorrow morning trying to get him back from his loan deal at Birmingham.

[Lofty]

dkw, on Jan 18 2009, 14:20 PM, said:

dont know what the jons got to do with it, im sure his toilet habits arent a problem.....

Poxy proofreaders: you just can't get the staff these days!

[mad_mac]

Great debates alround guys, this is what a Forum is for. Interesting reading, and glad it didn't digress into petty name calling! Keep up the good work folks, we're all not going to agree on every aspect; if we did, there would be no point for the forum at all

[ivorycoast]

Found these on the net.

http://www.milanlalk.../index.php?id=1

Milans homepage which has some videos on it.



Frank Nouble Comp. The Goals are very Drogba-like i think.

[PloKoon13]

Lofty, on Jan 18 2009, 14:14 PM, said:

be honest, before Belletti's equalised, did anyone honestly expect us to win the game?

I did, actually. I had a tingling feeling.
Also my stream was about two minutes slow, so the shouts from downstairs were a giveaway