37 replies to this topic

[ethicalstrategy]

PloKoon13, on 24 August 2010 - 01:51 PM, said:

The reason I specifically asked for solutions which didn't involve playing Ramires or Essien playing at DM for extended periods of time is because it's not really practical. Imagine if Mikel broke a leg, for example, and was out for a given number of months. It simply isn't practical to shunt Essien out of his preferred position for that amount of time. I think it would be to the detriment of the team.
My point is that we only have one player whose expertise is the defensive midfield position, one which is extremely important to the team as I'm sure you'll agree. If he is out for an extended period of time, then we are weakening other areas of the team to cover for him. Surely it would be wise to keep hold of Matic just in case? I'm not saying Essien cannot slot into the defensive mid position, I am saying that I'd much rather see him as the box-to-box destroyer, where he is a greater asset to the team than if he is stuck back in defensive midfield.
Would you really want to lose a player who is arguably our best for months on end?

We have three players for two midfield positions and so one or other of Essien, Ramires and Mikel will be on the bench. If Mikel is injured then one or other of Ramires or Essien can cover. If Essien is injured then Ramires can cover for him. We won't see both Ramires and Essien playing together unless one is in the holding role or Frank is injured. Not having Essien in his best position would be a shame, but we managed well enough without him last season.

[Granticus]

PloKoon13, on 24 August 2010 - 01:51 PM, said:

The reason I specifically asked for solutions which didn't involve playing Ramires or Essien playing at DM for extended periods of time is because it's not really practical. Imagine if Mikel broke a leg, for example, and was out for a given number of months. It simply isn't practical to shunt Essien out of his preferred position for that amount of time. I think it would be to the detriment of the team.

I don't think it's likely that all three of them would be playing together much. Frank is pretty much irreplaceable in the midfield, so if we lose Mikel meaning Ramires or Essien switches to that position, we only lose the one that wouldn't have been playing anyway (Ramires, most likely.)

Edit: ethicalstrategy beat me to it, and much better put too.

Edited by Granticus, 24 August 2010 - 03:20 PM.

[Ruh Buh Juh]

I think Essien may well be the one to go there, we all remember his performance against Liverpool on that Champions League Quarter-Final first leg. Essien has the discipline to play there, but also he gives something different than Mikel, because with Mikel, he would win the ball and immediately pass it to Essien/Lampard etc leaving them to set up the attack, but with Essien there, he can win the ball back, offload it to whoever, BUT he can also drive through the middle of the field with one of his runs. I don't see putting Essien in Mikel's role as putting him into defensive midfield, he goes into an out-and-out centre midfielder.

[BlueNose]

Again,we get the same critic saying he wont be missed,ramires will force him out etc,mikel is still young himself and over the past 5 years has kept his head down and tried to do his best for the team,he recieves abuse the moment one of his passes goes astray,and its unfair on him,his ball to anelka at the weekend was one xavi or iniesta would have been proud of and i cant remember the last time mikel actually did anything to hinder the team? maybe he's just fun to have a go at,as is kalou,but i think we need to support mikel,and when he does get injured,or replaced,support that player rather than criticise him after a great game at the weekend.

[Barry Bridges]

Lampard, Essien, Mikel, Zhirkov, Malouda, Benayoun, Ramires ................. I mean thats a lot of cover for 3 spots without even casting a glance at youth...... and 3 of those (Essien. Mikel, Ramirez) would slot right into that CDM/holding role as they have before either for club or country. And yes Malouda is playig up with the forwards, but you could easily switch in Kalou so he can drop back. Zhirkov could in a pinch, although I wouldnt against top level competition. Ivan I believe also could step in well.

I think this wont be a problem, and while I understand we want to have top level coverage in all positions, its not practicle in terms of the wages we would have a mass wage cap and no path for our youngsters to progress. We simply have to take the gamble that we can cope with injuries with what we have if we ever want to see a youth product make it into the first team......even with our current roster its going to be very difficult to get our youths any real pitch time.

[PloKoon13]

One person I forgot to bear in mind is Michael Mancienne...

If Bruma is the fourth centre back and Ferreira the second [third if you count Ivanovic] right back, then maybe after his performances for Wolves last year Mancienne is in the squad for that purpose? Although I'd hardly be surprised if he went out on loan again...

I understand your points about Ramires and Essien, I just don't really like the idea of playing either of them out of their preferred positions for long periods of time, but I guess it's better for one of them to be played out of position rather than not play at all.

[Orangutan]

PloKoon13, on 24 August 2010 - 11:26 PM, said:

One person I forgot to bear in mind is Michael Mancienne...

If Bruma is the fourth centre back and Ferreira the second [third if you count Ivanovic] right back, then maybe after his performances for Wolves last year Mancienne is in the squad for that purpose? Although I'd hardly be surprised if he went out on loan again...

I understand your points about Ramires and Essien, I just don't really like the idea of playing either of them out of their preferred positions for long periods of time, but I guess it's better for one of them to be played out of position rather than not play at all.

Not trying to be flip, but how do we all know what Essien's preferred position is. Maybe he said it in an interview but I don't recall hearing it. Essien has played as a defensive midfielder in the past and I'm sure he'll play as one in the future, too. It's not as if we're "losing" Essien if he doesn't play further forward. We're just utilizing his immense talent in a different way. I wouldn't be opposed to signing a dedicated CDM but I think Ramires, Essien, and Mikel have it covered between the three of them with Mancienne possibly capable of covering as well (as I already mentioned).

[smileysmiles]

I have seen Mikel do 1 good thing this season so far and thats the ball over the top. Apart from that he just looks too lethargic in defence and a liability. I was hoping we would have signed another defensive midfielder because I think Essien is wasted there.

[smileysmiles]

PloKoon13, on 24 August 2010 - 11:26 PM, said:

One person I forgot to bear in mind is Michael Mancienne...

I cannot see him ever making it at Chelsea.

[dkw]

smileysmiles, on 26 August 2010 - 10:22 AM, said:

I have seen Mikel do 1 good thing this season so far and thats the ball over the top. Apart from that he just looks too lethargic in defence and a liability. I was hoping we would have signed another defensive midfielder because I think Essien is wasted there.

Seriously? So in the 2 games we have dominated and won 6-0 our defensive midfielder hasnt done much. Who would have thunk it.

[G4 Squared]

Ivan can also play there. In the two games so far this season I reckon John "Ob La Di Ob La Da" Mikel has played really well

[Eggy McMuffin]

Tim W, on 26 August 2010 - 02:01 PM, said:

Ivan can also play there. In the two games so far this season I reckon John "Ob La Di Ob La Da" Mikel has played really well

I agree, he's looked as composed as ever, but one of the major complaints many have had about him, is his refusal to play a forward pass, and he's had the freedom, and confidence to do that recently. I don't think he's anywhere near a liability, he's good defensively... not great, but he's young and positioning is something which tends to come later in a player's career. The only time I feel he seems like a liability is when he's caught one on one with a player (Champions League, last year), but if he is, it means one of the centre backs has gone missing (Alex in that case I believe). If a centre back goes missing and he's one on one with a player, there isn't much he can do, the same could be said of most central midfield players, as they tend to lack pace, with exceptions being Essien and Ramires... Makelele would have had to foul the player and smile at the ref, Mikel is too scared to get sent off to do that sort of thing, due to his record of sending offs.

I like Mikel a lot as a player, and Nibs will probably disagree with all of what I've said because he doesn't like Mikel (although that may be to do with his aversion to the holding midfield position as much as anything), but he probably won't be in our best side next season with the purchase of Ramires, which is unfortunate, but then again shows the strength of our squad. Like I said before, I really like the idea of playing Essien and Ramires in a double pivot at the base of midfield in a 4-2-3-1, but that may just be to do with it being in vogue right now.

[Barry Bridges]

Eggy McMuffin, on 27 August 2010 - 12:41 AM, said:

I agree, he's looked as composed as ever, but one of the major complaints many have had about him, is his refusal to play a forward pass, and he's had the freedom, and confidence to do that recently. I don't think he's anywhere near a liability, he's good defensively... not great, but he's young and positioning is something which tends to come later in a player's career. The only time I feel he seems like a liability is when he's caught one on one with a player (Champions League, last year), but if he is, it means one of the centre backs has gone missing (Alex in that case I believe). If a centre back goes missing and he's one on one with a player, there isn't much he can do, the same could be said of most central midfield players, as they tend to lack pace, with exceptions being Essien and Ramires... Makelele would have had to foul the player and smile at the ref, Mikel is too scared to get sent off to do that sort of thing, due to his record of sending offs.

I like Mikel a lot as a player, and Nibs will probably disagree with all of what I've said because he doesn't like Mikel (although that may be to do with his aversion to the holding midfield position as much as anything), but he probably won't be in our best side next season with the purchase of Ramires, which is unfortunate, but then again shows the strength of our squad. Like I said before, I really like the idea of playing Essien and Ramires in a double pivot at the base of midfield in a 4-2-3-1, but that may just be to do with it being in vogue right now.

I think it may be Mikel being restricted with his forward passing rather than self imposed. He has that beaut to Anelka vs Wigan and again with Drogba at Portsmouth last season so he has the ability and he was a attacking mid when he came here, we've drilled him into a CDM and I think drilling him so hard into that role may of (intentionally or unintentionally) make him shy away from those probing forward passes.

Diffenately something I would like to see more of from him and I think we will this season as his confidence(and ours/coaching staff) in that area is growing it appears!

Edited by Barry Bridges, 27 August 2010 - 01:21 AM.

[Planet Drogba]

smileysmiles, on 26 August 2010 - 10:22 AM, said:

I have seen Mikel do 1 good thing this season so far and thats the ball over the top. Apart from that he just looks too lethargic in defence and a liability. I was hoping we would have signed another defensive midfielder because I think Essien is wasted there.

I don't know which Mikel you've been watching because he's been phenomenal. I remember one stray pass in the West Brom game and towards the end of the Wigan game (I think we were up 4-0 at the time) he started to get lazy. Let's be a bit more open-minded, shall we?

[BLUENUT]

Tim W, on 26 August 2010 - 02:01 PM, said:

Ivan can also play there. In the two games so far this season I reckon John "Ob La Di Ob La Da" Mikel has played really well

Make that 3 games....he was knocking it about like Hoddle at the weekend!

[bjd]

BLUENUT, on 30 August 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

Make that 3 games....he was knocking it about like Hoddle at the weekend!

He really was, and i have been pleasantly surprised this season.

However, he hasnt really been tested. We havent yet faced a real attacking midfieldfield player, one who plays 'in the hole' if you like.

Traditionally thats where he struggles, so im not getting carried away just yet. He has had plenty of space and not a lot of pressure.

Even on Saturday there were one or two sluggish, lazy moments. He needs to cut these out.

[Fabio2010]

Mikel's injury is not a problem. We have Essien, Ramires and Lampard to replace him.

I think the real problem lies on the defense. We only have Ivanovic who can replace Terry or Alex as a central defender. But he played as a right back last season, if he moves to play as a central defender, we would only have Ferreira to play right back. I still remember how Bale embarrassed him last season. So I think we need to find another Central defender now.

[dkw]

Fabio2010, on 31 August 2010 - 01:14 PM, said:

Mikel's injury is not a problem. We have Essien, Ramires and Lampard to replace him.

I think the real problem lies on the defense. We only have Ivanovic who can replace Terry or Alex as a central defender. But he played as a right back last season, if he moves to play as a central defender, we would only have Ferreira to play right back. I still remember how Bale embarrassed him last season. So I think we need to find another Central defender now.

Lampard would never be used as a defensive midfielder, and we also have Bruma who can play central defence.