720 replies to this topic

[rahul]

Too right Butch. Carlo isnt even reactive and that's the mistake he's been making regularly.

What frustrates me is some fellow posters are not ready to accept it as Carlo's mistake and will give all sorts of ridiculous concocted reasons to justify his position.

[icecoolguy22]

So f* obvious, only the manager can't see it. As I see it, Carlo is just going through the motion with his team selection. He picks the most reputable 11 players, we lose, he can basically say - I got my best players on the field, what else you want me do? If he takes a chance, and backfired even to the slightest, he has a lot more questions to answer. Right now, he won't take a chance, if we lose, we will lose with Lampard, Drogba, Essien on the field. On another note, sending out Sturridge etc on loan sounds like a dodgy decision too, we could have used a couple of them in the last few matches, and Cole has backup to his position.

[Hutch]

rahul, on 20 February 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

Too right Butch. Carlo isnt even reactive and that's the mistake he's been making regularly.

What frustrates me is some fellow posters are not ready to accept it as Carlo's mistake and will give all sorts of ridiculous concocted reasons to justify his position.

You're so right. Week after week I hear "I like Carlo but... ", "he won us the double last season so surely... ". And that's what he's living on. A nice bloke who won us the double last season. This season he's taking us to hell in a handcart. People excuse his selections, people excuse his substitutions. They put it down to Ray Wilkins. If Ancelotti can't cope without Ray Wilkins, then it doesn't say a lot for him, does it? People talk about the players being in a comfort zone. What about Ancelotti?


This "moment" we've been in, has been going on for months now. "We were not able to play our football" he says. Why not? Because of the way the team was set up. Look at yesterday's first half performance. We started out - and I've said this so many times it's getting stale - repeatedly and persistently trying to bore (in more ways than one) our way through the middle of a packed Everton midfield and defence. Running into one blind alley after another. Why were we doing that? Because this is what Ancelotti wanted us to do. The team were following his instructions. Everyone could see it wasn't working, it didn't take a football genius to predict it wouldn't ever work, and yet this is how Ancelotti sent the team out to play.

I've just read a post by bjd about Ancelotti's lack of motivational skills, something else that's been all too apparent for all too long, and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

But never mind all that, he's a nice bloke. Charming even. And we won the double last season.

[dkw]

rahul, on 20 February 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

Too right Butch. Carlo isnt even reactive and that's the mistake he's been making regularly.

What frustrates me is some fellow posters are not ready to accept it as Carlo's mistake and will give all sorts of ridiculous concocted reasons to justify his position.

I guess I`m one of those who frustrates you, but I`m not accepting Carlo`s mistakes, I`m giving my opinion as to why I think he does these things.  I`m not saying I agree with them though.

[G4 Squared]

If you're good enough - you're old enough

[goose]

Several things have impressed me with Josh the few times I've seen him play. The way he finds space, control, acturacy of pass etc. What he has in his
game which I feel we are really lacking at the moment is his speed of pass. It's usually quick control and a sharp pass. At the moment we are so laboured
in mid-field and be the time we get the pass away the other team have read it.

So I'm all for Josh starting on Tuesday night and lets see some urgencey in our passing.

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I'd start him he can't do worse than whats out there

[Chippy]

rahul, on 20 February 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

Too right Butch. Carlo isnt even reactive and that's the mistake he's been making regularly.

What frustrates me is some fellow posters are not ready to accept it as Carlo's mistake and will give all sorts of ridiculous concocted reasons to justify his position.

If I'm one of the people that frustrates you rahul I'll have to post a bit more...just to even up the frustration I feel when reading the way you react to opinions that are not the same as yours.

I don't accuse you of concocting and I doubt anyone else who believes Carlo is the man for the Job does, I don't agree with a thing you say but I wouldn't accuese you of fabricating your reasons for believing the opposite to I believe.

Its a forum for discussing different opinions not for accusing people of concocting things.


Carlo has the full support of the board the players and next season will win the treble here while sending out the under twelves team in the CC final only to lose on Penalties to UTD at the end.

bit of a concoction there for you, hope it frustrates

[rahul]

OK maybe I went a bit far accusing people of concocting while it could very well be that its their view of things and they are in no way trying to deflect criticism from the manager by giving every kind of reason possible.

My question still is why can't you accept that a lot of things he's done in the last few months has gone tits up rather than question someone who questions his decisions? Your reasons for what he does or doesnt might well be correct but you seem to support every one of them while its clear that they aren't the best decisions for the club. SOmetimes its called blind support.

[Chippy]

rahul, on 20 February 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

OK maybe I went a bit far accusing people of concocting while it could very well be that its their view of things and they are in no way trying to deflect criticism from the manager by giving every kind of reason possible.

My question still is why can't you accept that a lot of things he's done in the last few months has gone tits up rather than question someone who questions his decisions? Your reasons for what he does or doesnt might well be correct but you seem to support every one of them while its clear that they aren't the best decisions for the club. SOmetimes its called blind support.

Oh good it was aimed at me then.

I was just coming back on to edit that post as I thought I'd taken liberties imagining it was my posts that had you so frustrated.

I've answered your question in my posts and it gets really boring keep repeating it, as boring as reading the posts that imply (so what he won the double that doesn't mean hes good) but quickly heres the gist of my opinion.

I think the cut backs the injuries and the hard time the best players are having recovering from their injuries have had a huge impact on the season, I think Drogbas lack of form aftter his injury and Malaria would have had a season wrecking effect on us whoever was in charge and I think because of these problems the whole team has had very fragile confidence.

I think the players we have have trouble adapting to new syatems / formations because we have no natural wide players and I think this can be papered over when our best players are in form but when they are not it ruins us.

I think Carlo has stuck with Drogba and Lampard because he feels getting them into form is the best bet for our CL chances and the alternatives being young and untried at the highest level would be a bigger risk, he knows what these two can do and Chelsea rarely lose a game when both Frank and Didier are on form.

I think losing Ray has had some bareing on conecting players and management although I doubt he was in charge of tactics anymore than to instill Carlos ideas on the team.

I feel hes looking after Josh but maybe a bit too much, I'm not one for saying try the youngsters they can't do any worse as I believe in the players I have seen prove themselves time and time again, I think Josh has done enough to get more time and I think he is the only player I would use that Carlo hasn't or hasn't enough.

I think Carlo done a great Job in his first season with a squad basically the same as Jose had in his third and short fourth season and thought needed a lot of strengthening, I feel sure that he is good in man managment as that team after going through a season and a half with Jose, three quarters of a seaon with Grant, three quarters of a season with Scolari and a short time with Hiddink without a title and then having a bad spell and looking like being out of the race again after going out of the CL put in a great run and gave us our best seaon ever,

After winning the title and setting all sorts of records, scoring more goals than ever and beating all the top teams hom and away I am covvinced this wasn't new manager effect but more than that, I am convinced that Carlo is a good manager and the right man for the job, I don't say the only man for the job as I still think most decent managers would do ok with what we have and what Roman will give us but I'd sooner have the stability and a man that has proven himself.

These are all my opinions offered up to counter the opposite opinions and they don't mean I think anyone concocts their ideas because they don't tally with mine,

[Hutch]

Chippy. When I responded to rahul's post I didn't take it as aimed at you at all. Again and again I've seen the same criticisms of Ancelotti, and I believe justifiably so, yesterday's slow-slow slow-slow-slow "counter attack" through the middle was just the icing on the cake. But, and forgive me if I'm wrong, it's my impression that the same people who've been crying out for changes - "why can't Carlo see that we need width" - "if this is a rebuilding season, fine if you give the youngsters a chance (but he's not)" have also been saying we should stick with Ancelotti, and their main reasons would appear to be that he's a nice bloke and that he won us the double last season.

This is all well and good, but if his heart's not in the job this season, if he really doesn't want to be here, which is I think a strong possibility at least, then the sooner he's gone the better.

[Chippy]

Hutch, on 20 February 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

Chippy. When I responded to rahul's post I didn't take it as aimed at you at all. Again and again I've seen the same criticisms of Ancelotti, and I believe justifiably so, yesterday's slow-slow slow-slow-slow "counter attack" through the middle was just the icing on the cake. But, and forgive me if I'm wrong, it's my impression that the same people who've been crying out for changes - "why can't Carlo see that we need width" - "if this is a rebuilding season, fine if you give the youngsters a chance (but he's not)" have also been saying we should stick with Ancelotti, and their main reasons would appear to be that he's a nice bloke and that he won us the double last season.

This is all well and good, but if his heart's not in the job this season, if he really doesn't want to be here, which is I think a strong possibility at least, then the sooner he's gone the better.

I thought it was aimed at me Hutch and his reply certainly didn't make me think I was mistaken but its not a problem if it was or wasn't.

I wouldn't be one to keep someone because they were nice, I've supported the team since I was four years old and they've ruined more weekends for me than they have made them, I would have Hitler in charge if it made us win games.

I defend people until I am sure they are not able to do the Job and for reasons stated above I'm sure Carlo is able to do the Job and able to do it well.

I have explained why I don't think hes given much time to the youngsters but I'd add that we haven't got a youngster that I would use that could give us the main thing we need which as you say is width.

You use you're feeling that Carlos heart isn't in the Job and fine thats your opinion and you are perfectly reasonble in stating it, I don't agree for a minute but I don't think you concocted it, in fact I'm surprised that you are of that opinion and surprised you are in the Carlo should go Camp as usually I agree with what you have to say...as I've said before though thats what its all about, nobody will agree on everything and heres one we differ in, I think maybe we Differ in the should Drogba stay debate as well but not usually on too much.

Anyway we'll see how things go and I'll be here voicing my opinions as to why I think we have one of the best Managers out there and should he be here next season I hope like last season to be proved right.
Should he be gone I will point you back here next season when I'm defending the new man.

Edited by Chippy, 20 February 2011 - 02:46 PM.

[Hutch]

Chippy, on 20 February 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

I thought it was aimed at me Hutch and his reply certainly didn't make me think I was mistaken but its not a problem if it was or wasn't.

I wouldn't be one to keep someone because they were nice, I've supported the team since I was four years old and they've ruined more weekends for me than they have made them, I would have Hitler in charge if it made us win games.

I defend people until I am sure they are not able to do the Job and for reasons stated above I'm sure Carlo is able to do the Job and able to do it well.

I have explained why I don't think hes given much time to the youngsters but I'd add that we haven't got a youngster that I would use that could give us the main thing we need which as you say is width.

You use you're feeling that Carlos heart isn't in the Job and fine thats your opinion and you are perfectly reasonble in stating it, I don't agree for a minute but I don't think you concocted it, in fact I'm surprised that you are of that opinion and surprised you are in the Carlo should go Camp as usually I agree with what you have to say...as I've said before though thats what its all about, nobody will agree on everything and heres one we differ in, I think maybe we Differ in the should Drogba stay debate as well but not usually on too much.

Anyway we'll see how things go and I'll be here voicing my opinions as to why I think we have one of the best Managers out there and should he be here next season I hope to be proved right.
Should he be gone I will point you back here next season when I'm defending the new man.

As you say, we all see things differently.

I've given as basis for my viewpoint, a comparison of this season's slump with the one that led to Scolari's sacking, a growing feeling that Ancelotti's heart hasn't been in the job for a long time - which would explain what I regard as the mysterious decisions, tactical lunacy (counter attack through the middle again) and so on.

Having said all that, even at this stage I would still love to be proved wrong, because like most of us here, I fully realise the importance and the desirability of managerial stability, but managerial stability depends on having the right man for the job. Sadly, I can't see that Ancelotti is that man.

[Eggy McMuffin]

rahul, on 20 February 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

OK maybe I went a bit far accusing people of concocting while it could very well be that its their view of things and they are in no way trying to deflect criticism from the manager by giving every kind of reason possible.

My question still is why can't you accept that a lot of things he's done in the last few months has gone tits up rather than question someone who questions his decisions? Your reasons for what he does or doesnt might well be correct but you seem to support every one of them while its clear that they aren't the best decisions for the club. SOmetimes its called blind support.

Rahul, you clearly don't like anything I post, that's fine, I can live with that. One thing I can't live with is the way you respond to it.

Instead of quoting my post, and telling me which parts you disagree with and more importantly why you think I'm wrong there, you create a post to try and parody mine. That isn't debating, that's what is called 'The Straw Man Fallacy.' It's where you create an obviously wrong position to argue against which isn't the position of the person you're debating. It's infuriating and gets this whole thing nowhere.

Instead of showing any respect for my posts or suppositions about Ancelotti's reasoning behind his decision to not play McEachran, you basically call me an idiot, and in fact anyone who makes the fatal assumption that Carlo isn't an idiot and may actually have reasons for his decisions (shock f**king horror) appears to have your utter contempt.

There is such a thing as blind support, yes, but there is also such a thing as a bandwagon. I think the bandwagon of Carlo hate has gone too far, so I keep making suggestions as to why Carlo has made the decisions he's made, even if they haven't worked out, and no doubt many of them have gone wrong. If Carlo has a sensible reason for making a decision, I'm going to support him making that decision, even if it doesn't work out. Nibs complained that Carlo brought Zhirkov on instead of Josh; haven't many people been crying out for width? Some complained that Carlo took Mikel off who had a good game; Essien although losing some control of the midfield added some pace to it.

Maybe Carlo could do with being braver, maybe he could make substitutions earlier, maybe he's overprotecting Josh, but my point is, there are reasons for these things. He does make changes (we played a normal 4-4-2 towards the end of the game today), even if they're not the changes you want (the only one you'll seemingly accept is playing Josh). Carlo has more experience as a manager than any of us here, more success as a manager than any of us here, so I feel it's safe to assume that he's not an idiot, and I feel it's safe to assume that he does make his decisions for a reason, even if they don't work out, and even if they mean Josh needs to be patient for a little while longer. I feel as if it's my duty here to propose the reasons he might have, because otherwise... well... we wouldn't have a manager, and we'd probably be stuck with Rijkaard or someone coming in, who in my opinion would do a far worse job than Carlo ever could.

[Chippy]

Hutch, on 20 February 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

As you say, we all see things differently.

I've given as basis for my viewpoint, a comparison of this season's slump with the one that led to Scolari's sacking, a growing feeling that Ancelotti's heart hasn't been in the job for a long time - which would explain what I regard as the mysterious decisions, tactical lunacy (counter attack through the middle again) and so on.

Having said all that, even at this stage I would still love to be proved wrong, because like most of us here, I fully realise the importance and the desirability of managerial stability, but managerial stability depends on having the right man for the job. Sadly, I can't see that Ancelotti is that man.

Do you think thats a fair basis to sack the man though?

Scolari was unproven in league management, the players constantly complained about his training methods etc and the excuses for te form slump were hardly as easily found as the ones Carlo has to deal with.

I don't understand what he said about counter attacking yesterday but again I wouldn't read much into what he says in an interview after a dissapointing result, I think we had far more of the attack in the game than Everton so maybe it was a new tactical ploy (counter attack before the opposition attacks ).

We could and should have won that game by a fair margin and although a lot of the shots we had were from a way out we still had enough proper chances to have won by four Goals, that to me and with the problems we have getting width with these players is not a bad game and certainly not a game to push so many over the edge on the coach's future.

I also find it hard to write off last seasons achievements so easily as you do when you  say " but managerial stability depends on having the right man for the job. Sadly, I can't see that Ancelotti is that man" and could point to other Managers who have not been anything like as impressive in their first few seasons but gone on to great things.

[Nibs]

Hutch, on 20 February 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

But, and forgive me if I'm wrong, it's my impression that the same people who've been crying out for changes - "why can't Carlo see that we need width" - "if this is a rebuilding season, fine if you give the youngsters a chance (but he's not)" have also been saying we should stick with Ancelotti, and their main reasons would appear to be that he's a nice bloke and that he won us the double last season.

This is a good point and I find myself in this category. I want Carlo to do well as he has a pretty decent track record and certainly won me over last season - not just by winning the double but the way he was very calm and dignified in defeat. But being a decent bloke will only get you so far and I think of that saying "fortune favours the brave" and brave is something Carlo clearly isn't. His answer to our shocking run of results just seems to be to stick with the tried and tested and it will eventually come good. Flogging a dead horse. And people talk about lack of options but whose fault is it that options like Stoch, Sturridge , Kakuta are no longer options?

I'd still like to see Carlo turn it around but unless he becomes a bit brave, it ain't gonna happen.

[Star]

What I would like to ask is, since Ray left more often than not we are accused of not moving the ball quickly
enough, it has to be asked why the team has lacked urgency and not performed as it can, of course confidence
plays a huge part, but any side surely can at least be motivated and be able to up tempo.

The situation will be decided in my mind on Tuesday, if the boys themselves cannot get themselves up
for the Champions League there is something clinically wrong in the dressing room.
We still have a team of winners, so for me with many players on last chance saloon we simply
must be nailed on for a top drawer performance on Tuesday.

I still think of games like Sunderland away last season and Bolton away this season when the
interchanging of play and players was like Barcelona in full flow, quite what has gone wrong has
to be addressed by Carlo, quotes like "We never started well, We never had enough movement or tempo"
just cannot wash for much longer.

At least with Josh you get movement, tempo and a quality passes in abundance if his rare run outs and
recent England performances are anything to go by.

[Hutch]

Chippy, on 20 February 2011 - 03:26 PM, said:

Do you think thats a fair basis to sack the man though?

If his heart truly isn't in the job, then yes he has to go. It's only speculation,  only a feeling, but if Ancelotti is at Roma for the beginning next season, then I think we have to ask serious questions about his present level of commitment. Here's an interesting twist. The Mirror today are reporting that Abramovich actually intends offering Ancelotti an improved contract. Ok it's only the Mirror and there are no direct quotes, but if this is the case, then could it possibly be that Abramovich suspects that Ancelotti wants out and is attempting to buy his commitment?

Quote

Scolari was unproven in league management, the players constantly complained about his training methods etc and the excuses for te form slump were hardly as easily found as the ones Carlo has to deal with.

I thought that Scolari was a mistake from the word go. My feeling was that he was appointed because he was the biggest name currently available rather than because of any managerial qualities he might have had. Also when the club looked to be in freefall under Scolari the overwhelming feeling was that a decision had to be made, that he had to go. This viewpoint was pretty much by the way Guus Hiddink managed to turn things round. Comparing the Scolari slump with this season, I suspect that if Hiddink was available now, Ancelotti might have already gone.

Quote

I don't understand what he said about counter attacking yesterday but again I wouldn't read much into what he says in an interview after a dissapointing result, I think we had far more of the attack in the game than Everton so maybe it was a new tactical ploy (counter attack before the opposition attacks ).

We could and should have won that game by a fair margin and although a lot of the shots we had were from a way out we still had enough proper chances to have won by four Goals, that to me and with the problems we have getting width with these players is not a bad game and certainly not a game to push so many over the edge on the coach's future.

Taken in isolation yesterday's game would have been just a cup upset. On the back of a run of results and performances stretching all the way back to Liverpool away, then it's just the latest in a long line of poor results encompassing losing twice to Liverpool, losing to Wolves, Sunderland, Birmingham, home draws agagainst Everton, Villa, points dropped at Fulham, Newcastle, and so on. A truly awful run of results, that would have us even further up sh*t creek if it wasn't for the way we started the season. We could and should have won yesterday, could and should have won at Fulham, at Birmingham... but we didn't. There's only so many times you can put it down to luck. We've lost the edge, that spark. And in all seriousness, it's the manager's job to motivate the team, to provide that spark, to get them to give that little bit extra, to instill a winning mentality.

Quote

I also find it hard to write off last seasons achievements so easily as you do when you  say " but managerial stability depends on having the right man for the job. Sadly, I can't see that Ancelotti is that man" and could point to other Managers who have not been anything like as impressive in their first few seasons but gone on to great things.

What makes it harder to cope with, or to understand, is the way things appear to have gone downhill so rapidly. Ok, we let a few players go. Fine, there was a plan in place to introduce a few youngsters, they haven't settled as quickly as might have been hoped. But have they been given enough of an opportunity? Debatable, I'd say not. I'll accept that this is a transitional season, and that changes need to be made. I'd accept not winning anything, even finishing outside the Champions League places, if there were signs that we were in the process of rebuilding. But those signs haven't been there. Again and again, Ancelotti has tended to stick with the same old faces come what may.

It's an either or situation. You either play your most experienced players and make an all out attack on various competitions, or you take the attitude that this is a transitional season and take the opportunity to give the youngsters playing time. What you don't do is play the same old faces and still go on to claim that it's a transitional period.

[Chippy]

Hutch, on 20 February 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

If his heart truly isn't in the job, then yes he has to go. It's only speculation,  only a feeling, but if Ancelotti is at Roma for the beginning next season, then I think we have to ask serious questions about his present level of commitment. Here's an interesting twist. The Mirror today are reporting that Abramovich actually intends offering Ancelotti an improved contract. Ok it's only the Mirror and there are no direct quotes, but if this is the case, then could it possibly be that Abramovich suspects that Ancelotti wants out and is attempting to buy his commitment?



I thought that Scolari was a mistake from the word go. My feeling was that he was appointed because he was the biggest name currently available rather than because of any managerial qualities he might have had. Also when the club looked to be in freefall under Scolari the overwhelming feeling was that a decision had to be made, that he had to go. This viewpoint was pretty much by the way Guus Hiddink managed to turn things round. Comparing the Scolari slump with this season, I suspect that if Hiddink was available now, Ancelotti might have already gone.



Taken in isolation yesterday's game would have been just a cup upset. On the back of a run of results and performances stretching all the way back to Liverpool away, then it's just the latest in a long line of poor results encompassing losing twice to Liverpool, losing to Wolves, Sunderland, Birmingham, home draws agagainst Everton, Villa, points dropped at Fulham, Newcastle, and so on. A truly awful run of results, that would have us even further up sh*t creek if it wasn't for the way we started the season. We could and should have won yesterday, could and should have won at Fulham, at Birmingham... but we didn't. There's only so many times you can put it down to luck. We've lost the edge, that spark. And in all seriousness, it's the manager's job to motivate the team, to provide that spark, to get them to give that little bit extra, to instill a winning mentality.



What makes it harder to cope with, or to understand, is the way things appear to have gone downhill so rapidly. Ok, we let a few players go. Fine, there was a plan in place to introduce a few youngsters, they haven't settled as quickly as might have been hoped. But have they been given enough of an opportunity? Debatable, I'd say not. I'll accept that this is a transitional season, and that changes need to be made. I'd accept not winning anything, even finishing outside the Champions League places, if there were signs that we were in the process of rebuilding. But those signs haven't been there. Again and again, Ancelotti has tended to stick with the same old faces come what may.

It's an either or situation. You either play your most experienced players and make an all out attack on various competitions, or you take the attitude that this is a transitional season and take the opportunity to give the youngsters playing time. What you don't do is play the same old faces and still go on to claim that it's a transitional period.

Hutch,

Mate every quote and answer you've given ignores the reasons I've given as to my opinion why what you're saying for me is not true, rather than requote you and retype what I have typed add infinitum I will just say if your reply was hopining for a counter reply I'm sure you know what mine would be.

I'm sure I've given my reasons for my belief and you have yours, no point in boring every other person patient even to read through.

[Hutch]

Chippy, on 20 February 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

Hutch,

Mate every quote and answer you've given ignores the reasons I've given as to my opinion why what you're saying for me is not true, rather than requote you and retype what I have typed add infinitum I will just say if your reply was hopining for a counter reply I'm sure you know what mine would be.

I'm sure I've given my reasons for my belief and you have yours, no point in boring every other person patient even to read through.

Fair enough. No point in going round in circles. Maybe this isn't exactly the right thread, but the main reason for my previous post was that I really wanted to keep the negativity out of the "Get Behind Carlo" thread.

This in a nutshell, is what it comes down to. Managerial stability is necessary and desirable, no argument there. However, managerial stability depends on having the right manager, and going by what I've seen this season, I'm not convinced that Ancelotti is the right manager.

But I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong.