24 replies to this topic

[Nibs]

.....It was the result that mattered".

Just how many times are England gonna use that phrase? I know everyone uses it from time to time (and Chelsea have certainly been guilty of it in recent seasons), but for England it gets wheeled out after just about every match. If you have a tricky away games against a side like Spain or Holland, then fine - grind out a result. But Wales? For large parts of that game we got outplayed and out passed by WALES? And the performance didn't matter? When WILL the performance matter?
Currently it's all about qualifying. When the tournament starts it will be all about getting through the group stage. After the grouo stage it will be about wanting to be in the quarter finals and then the semi's and then the final (AS IF!). so it will ALWAYS be about the result as far as England are concerned. What a cop out for keep churning out the same old rubbish.

I had the chance to go to last night's game but really couldn't be arsed and boy am I glad I didn't waste my time to watch that load of crap. Where is the progression? Large parts of that team and the whole coaching team need to go now. Lamps has been great and he was no worse than anyone else last night but people are talking about him having one last crack at an International tournament? If we go to the Euro's still with this tired old team we have ZERO chance of doing anything. We have to blood the next generation NOW. They keep talking about it but talk will get us nowhere.

Get rid of Capello and co now and whoever the new coach is must be told to paint from a fresh canvas.

[Cam]

Sounds like Australia may have put in a better shift against Wales than you lot did....

[just]

I very nearly lost the will to live watching the 2nd half last night Nibs. The Wales' fans got it spot on with......................... "4th in the World? You're havin a larf".

And kudos to John Hartson for his comments afterwards on Capello.

[blizeH]

What did Hartson say?

[Spiller86]

Nibs in my belief it won't make much difference who you go to the tournament with. Until the manager can sort out the situation with the English fans then you're up a creek without a paddle.

Ballack made a very interesting comment in his interview the other day, talking about English players, playing with fear. The criticism is so acute that players fear failure rather than crave success. Keep your head down and then get back to club duty next week is the attitude in my mind.

It's endemic and has been going on for as long as I've been following football. You can take Wilshere, Carroll and Sturridge instead of Lampard, Gerrard etc. But as soon as the booing when you're 0-0 at halftime starts, the same mindset sets in and the same issues will be repeated.

Just my two bob.

Edited by Spiller86, 07 September 2011 - 10:01 AM.

[Maksimov]

Talking of Wales, this one still makes me laugh:



I know he was pissed off after getting beat on their home turf, but still... How bitter can you be?

[Nibs]

Spiller86, on 07 September 2011 - 10:00 AM, said:

Nibs in my belief it won't make much difference who you go to the tournament with. Until the manager can sort out the situation with the English fans then you're up a creek without a paddle.

Ballack made a very interesting comment in his interview the other day, talking about English players, playing with fear. The criticism is so acute that players fear failure rather than crave success. Keep your head down and then get back to club duty next week is the attitude in my mind.

It's endemic and has been going on for as long as I've been following football. You can take Wilshere, Carroll and Sturridge instead of Lampard, Gerrard etc. But as soon as the booing when you're 0-0 at halftime starts, the same mindset sets in and the same issues will be repeated.

Just my two bob.

I agree to an extent. The players always seem to play with a fear - especially at Wembley. It is hard to understand when you consider their experience and quality.

But I think the fans would have a lot more patience if they could see the team was going in the right direction. To put out the same old faces who have failed time and time before - it's no wonder supporters get pissed off having made the treck to Wembley and forked out loads of money for tickets.

I'm not sure who the next coach will be but I do hope that whoever it is, he won't make the same mistakes. We have some bright young players to look forward to and it will be criminal if players like Wilshere, McEachran and Barkley end up mirroring the kind of dross we witnessed last night.

Edited by Nibs, 07 September 2011 - 11:21 AM.

[dkw]

The first 20 minutes showed exactly what is the biggest problem with England, they were terrified to try anything in case they got it wrong and got hammered for it. Once the goal went in they opened up and looked much more confident, but that soon went as we moved towards the end of the game the nerves kicked in again. Players are on edge anytime they play for England as they know one mistake will lead to a witch hunt. The one thing stopping England winning anything is simply English fans and media.

[Nibs]

dkw, on 07 September 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

The first 20 minutes showed exactly what is the biggest problem with England, they were terrified to try anything in case they got it wrong and got hammered for it. Once the goal went in they opened up and looked much more confident, but that soon went as we moved towards the end of the game the nerves kicked in again. Players are on edge anytime they play for England as they know one mistake will lead to a witch hunt. The one thing stopping England winning anything is simply English fans and media.

I think that is simplying things and also being too kind to the current crop.

I know it's never gonna happen but if there were assurances that the players were nnot going to get slaughtered, do you honestly believe that this team could win the Euro's or the next World Cup?

No, the media and fans don't help, but that's another easy excuse - I'm sure Italian and Spanish fans / media can be just as hard on their national teams but it hasn't stopped them winning trophies.
A good start would be for our coach to be able to speak the language and communicate with the players.

[dkw]

Nibs, on 07 September 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think that is simplying things and also being too kind to the current crop.

I know it's never gonna happen but if there were assurances that the players were nnot going to get slaughtered, do you honestly believe that this team could win the Euro's or the next World Cup?

No, the media and fans don't help, but that's another easy excuse - I'm sure Italian and Spanish fans / media can be just as hard on their national teams but it hasn't stopped them winning trophies.
A good start would be for our coach to be able to speak the language and communicate with the players.

No on can say for certain whether they would win, but I can say with 100% certainty that the venomous and poisonous atmosphere that surrounds the England squad makes it a a hell of a lot more difficult. Frankly I wouldnt be surprised to see future generations of English players who are loathe to join the squad after seeing the way current players are treat. I asked a question in another thread about fans and media of other countries and whether they are as bad, the general consensus was no, at least not in the lead up to a tournament or during one.

[Celery1989]

I don't think you can really single out one factor as to why the England setup has been so abject for so many years. There are so many detrimental factors at play in my opinion: the respective attitudes of the media and the fans which merely exacerbates the fear that the players feel, the behaviour of the manager, the relatlively simplistic nature of English football and finally the lack of top quality coaching on the right aspects of the game at the "grassroots level".

I actually think that last point is perhaps the most crucial. English players (generally) just can't seem to think the game anywhere near as efficiently as the Spanish for example. What I mean by this is, look at Xavi/Iniesta/Alonso/Fabregas, they're always thinking two or 3 passes ahead and its no wonder that they can always play incisive through balls and carve teams apart. Whereas someone like Lampard or Gareth Barry gets the ball, takes an hour to turn, and then has nowhere to play it. Add to that that English players are so static and that their technique just isn't good enough and its no surprise that they find it hard to break down a team like Wales. A lot of this could be fixed if we had better and more coaching at youth level, focussing more on technique, possession etc. Might be an idea to scrap the 442 from English football completely because the overly rigid and basic ethos of English football becomes ingrained by young players through this formation. Notice how not a single team in world football (club or international) that enjoys any success ever uses a 442. Barca are even employing a 343 without a true centre-forward right now!!

Edited by Celery1989, 07 September 2011 - 02:16 PM.

[goose]

Slightly off topic but I thought that Ramsey had a good game last night and outshone anything in the English mid-field.
Had he been English I doubt if Capella would have given him a start.

[Ruh Buh Juh]

Ramsey was excellent yesterday, actually pretty much the whole Welsh team was excellent, aside from Earnshaw...Darcy Blake was superb at centre back, absolutely superb. We still have a long way to go, but I'm looking forward to the next few years of Welsh football with Bale and Ramsey being the fixtures in our team for the next 10 years, with a bit of luck.

[undertow]

Maksimov, on 07 September 2011 - 10:38 AM, said:

Talking of Wales, this one still makes me laugh:

I know he was pissed off after getting beat on their home turf, but still... How bitter can you be?

Talking of Finland, any chance you lot keep a few points at home against the Swedes in October? ;)

[Spiller86]

Nibs, on 07 September 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think that is simplying things and also being too kind to the current crop.

I know it's never gonna happen but if there were assurances that the players were nnot going to get slaughtered, do you honestly believe that this team could win the Euro's or the next World Cup?

No, the media and fans don't help, but that's another easy excuse - I'm sure Italian and Spanish fans / media can be just as hard on their national teams but it hasn't stopped them winning trophies.
A good start would be for our coach to be able to speak the language and communicate with the players.

There is a difference though Nibs. How many other nations media would have revelled in the public vilification of a senior player like Terry over nothing more than an affair. Capello himself said in Italy that thing just simply wouldn't matter. How many stadiums in the world would a player be actively booed for reasons other than performance like Cole and Terry are?

The two problems are very closely linked. The expectations game plays a bigger role in this than anyone might think as well. If England had played to their absolute best at WC 2010 was there any chance they could have won? Probably not, because Spain were at another level to most other teams. But still the carry on occurred, because there seems to still be this sort of antiquated idea that because England invented the game and it's the national sport that they should be the best in the world at it as well. So instead of being able to work into the tournament perhaps a little under the radar as a team like Uruguay (who didn't qualify four years previously) did, England (who didn't qualify for their last major tournament either) have the same expectation placed on them as always, win the tournament or be damned. So when it finishes 1-1 against the US, the recriminations begin already after one game. It's a downward spiral, one which England must escape to finally break their drought.

[Celery1989]

undertow, on 07 September 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Talking of Finland, any chance you lot keep a few points at home against the Swedes in October? ;)

Who's the other Finn!? Moi mita kuuluu!

[The Moos]

undertow, on 07 September 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Talking of Finland, any chance you lot keep a few points at home against the Swedes in October? ;)

NO!

[undertow]

The Moos, on 08 September 2011 - 12:40 PM, said:

NO!

Were you as confident as Ibrahimovic before the Hungary match?

I was getting sick of always being in the same qualifying group as Sweden, but now we got a repeat of The Netherlands in the WC qualifying and suddenly Sweden seems to be a much more lucrative option.

[The Moos]

undertow, on 08 September 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

Were you as confident as Ibrahimovic before the Hungary match?

Absolutely not. Playing away against Hungary is always tough, even when they're missing great players, so I certainly didn't think it was an easy three points. I knew it would take hard work to win. Unfortunately only a few players showed up for Sweden and our defence was absolute s*ite.

[Maksimov]

undertow, on 07 September 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Talking of Finland, any chance you lot keep a few points at home against the Swedes in October? ;)

There's always a chance, but we haven't done too well against the Swedes in our recent matches. And besides, the team is going through a transitional period as the older more established players who used to be the spine of our team are retiring and we're now forced to play many inexperienced and/or young players. It should've been done more gradually over the years and now we're paying the price.Then again, we do have a love/hate relationship with our neighbours the Swedes, so I certainly hope that our boys will at least put up a proper fight. If it was Germany, I'd be more hopeful of getting something out of the match...