Eden Hazard - Chelsea Legend

[Ernie_blue]

2 minutes ago, Argo said:

Hasn't he already reached it? He is likely to be on 4 trophies in 5 years this summer and maybe even 5 in 5.

Unless you were a United player under Fegie, Milan in 90s or Barca last ten years I don't think there is a significantly better trophy ratio than that.

That's very true. I just think he has reached a high performance level for years and he is 33 now which is quite old for a winger.

I just thought I would try and explain why I don't think Hazard is world class. It's just an opinion which means nothing, I was interested to hear Cundy say the same thing. It was also interesting to hear him say that the term world class is used too much and that's exactly how I see it. 

[STATS]

14 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

My point was more going towards those players have been on par playing wise. No one has the quality of Hazard but because he has more quality it doesn't mean his automatically world class. You need more than ability to be World class.

Mane has had a better season than Hazard and the others I mentioned are around the same level performance wise for me. Silva hasn't been great but has had good seasons before. Mahrez and Payet was probably double the player Hazard was last year does that make them world class? 

I just don't think Hazard is consistent enough to be regarded world class, doesn't make him a bad footballer. I don't rate any of those players as World class by the way.

Mane has not had a better season than Hazard. Don't be silly. He has had a very good season but Hazard has been better. Hazard when I last checked was top of the SQUAKA ratings and is favourite for PFA player of the year. But, yeah I think people have different definitions of world class. I would call Hazard world class as I think Conte and majority other people would. Cundy would not but that is a minority.

[Ernie_blue]

2 minutes ago, coco said:

I bet if you asked Conte if Eden Hazard was World class or not, he would just laugh at you for asking such a dumbass question.

If he was asked that on telly you think he would say No? 

[Ernie_blue]

5 minutes ago, STATS said:

Mane has not had a better season than Hazard. Don't be silly. He has had a very good season but Hazard has been better. Hazard when I last checked was top of the SQUAKA ratings and is favourite for PFA player of the year. But, yeah I think people have different definitions of world class. I would call Hazard world class as I think Conte and majority other people would. Cundy would not but that is a minority.

This isn't to disagree with what you said but I'm interested in squaka. I have never shyed away from showing my dislike for stat websites like this on the forum but how does it work? Are the stats based on someone's opinion like match rating or is it more official like pass completion?

[STATS]

24 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

This isn't to disagree with what you said but I'm interested in squaka. I have never shyed away from showing my dislike for stat websites like this on the forum but how does it work? Are the stats based on someone's opinion like match rating or is it more official like pass completion?

Not fully sure. With that one I think they take a lot of things into perspective such as dribbling, passing success, goals, assists, team goals (maybe). I don't read all into stats but even if he is not at his best he always does the littlest of things that have a big influence in games. I agree that he needs to be more consistently quality though. For example by his standards he has been poor last couple of games but against Swansea he prob will now give us a performance to behold.

[pacquiao]

5 hours ago, STATS said:

Everton, Southampton, Leicester, West Ham, Burnley and Bournemouth he was our best player by far in those games. He was brilliant.

Yeah and I could name so many games where he hasn't turned up against the small teams

[STATS]

11 minutes ago, pacquiao said:

Yeah and I could name so many games where he hasn't turned up against the small teams

Your point was that he does not turn up in games against small teams. I have given a list of 'small teams' who he has torn apart. That is several games where he has been our best player. So just pointing out that the statement you made is inaccurate and there is no player who is good against every small team.

[bola]

10 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

IMO Hazard is a inconsistent player. I would even say so this season. To me he don't look interested sometimes. Willian is just consistently bad.

 

inconsistent in term of end product you mean maybe? that's true to some certain extent however, he's quite consistent in term of making our attacks going... Most of the times, our build up play, the good one, hazard was consistently involved in that..

 

 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

13 hours ago, coco said:

If you don't have Hazard down as World class, apart from Messi and Ronaldo, who is currently World class ?

Suarez, Bale, Neymar, they're all ahead of him.

Im not saying he's not bordering on world class. He has wolrld class moments but he lacks the consistency and as I have said before people need to stop been so sensitive when he's criticised. If we can praise him when he's sh*t hot then we can certainly criticise him when he plays like he did against Wolves. I'm getting really tired of people on here having a f**king Paddy every time someone says he didn't play well.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bobbywoodhogan

[Bobbywoodhogan]

12 hours ago, coco said:

Who is better then Eden in the Prem in the attacking midfield position ? If you can't name one Eden must be World class as no AM in this league comes close to him.

Just because you're the best in that position in your league does not automatically make you world class. 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

Chelsea Fancast had this very debate about Hazard. Recommend listening it's really on the nose what they say.

[Ukraine Bolt]

10 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Robben was very good for Chelsea. Injured too much to really judge his Chelsea career. I was talking about his whole career. He went to Madrid and won trophies. Has been at Bayern for ages and consistently won trophies. That's a level I don't think Hazard would reach IMO, would love to be proven wrong.

Surely trophies is more down to the team than the player though? Unless you're looking at the players individual trophies, in which case Hazard has won POTY or YPOTY the majority of seasons.

[Ukraine Bolt]

27 minutes ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

Suarez, Bale, Neymar, they're all ahead of him.

Im not saying he's not bordering on world class. He has wolrld class moments but he lacks the consistency and as I have said before people need to stop been so sensitive when he's criticised. If we can praise him when he's sh*t hot then we can certainly criticise him when he plays like he did against Wolves. I'm getting really tired of people on here having a f**king Paddy every time someone says he didn't play well.

I agree with Suarez as i believe he's top 3 in the world and to an extent Bale, however i don't agree with peoples opinions on Neymar. He's been beyond average this entire season and went about three months without scoring a goal from open play in la liga, which is shocking when you're surrounded by the players he is. 

[Bobbywoodhogan]

22 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I agree with Suarez as i believe he's top 3 in the world and to an extent Bale, however i don't agree with peoples opinions on Neymar. He's been beyond average this entire season and went about three months without scoring a goal from open play in la liga, which is shocking when you're surrounded by the players he is. 

Fair enough, can't say I've took much notice of him this season was more going on previous that I'd seen him.

[IliyaKrostin]

I have always rated Hazard more than Neymar, Neymar might be more skillful and has better freekicks. If Hazard will replace him in Barcelona he will offer much more, Hazard is world class and few poor games don't really describe who he is.

 

[Argo]

1 hour ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

Chelsea Fancast had this very debate about Hazard. Recommend listening it's really on the nose what they say.

The frustrating thing about this is ten years ago and/or if Messi and Ronaldo never showed up, there wouldn't be any debate. I mean one of the main critique's is he doesn't score enough yet he scores a damn sight more than Robben did (for Chelsea) and the Dutchman was never accused of not doing enough and was basically salivated over (rightfully may i add, if people back then accused him of not doing enough i'd be almost as incandescent as i am now). Infact, another left winger Ryan Giggs, one of the best players in PL history, his goal record? 168 in 963. In 24 season's he hit double figures 5 times, Hazard has already done that 7 season's out of 9.

If Hazard was about 12 years ago he would have been right up Ronaldinho's arse in terms of the best player, infact those famous Chelsea vs Barca games would have been marketed as Hazard vs Ronaldinho.

[coco]

1 hour ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

I'm getting really tired of people on here having a f**king Paddy every time someone says he didn't play well.

alt+f4

[Argo]

1 hour ago, Bobbywoodhogan said:

Suarez, Bale, Neymar, they're all ahead of him.

Im not saying he's not bordering on world class. He has wolrld class moments but he lacks the consistency and as I have said before people need to stop been so sensitive when he's criticised. If we can praise him when he's sh*t hot then we can certainly criticise him when he plays like he did against Wolves. I'm getting really tired of people on here having a f**king Paddy every time someone says he didn't play well.

Not "having a paddy" i just happen to disagree on a lot of occasions, not at Wolves incidentally (that was one of the 10% of games he genuinely was having a bad time). However i'm off the opinion that the underappreciation of Hazard even by his own fans is beyond ridiculous and for as long as it exists, i'll be here to wade in with my side of my argument.

What would truly vindicate my side of the argument is if he got sold or we had to do without him for a long period, but my god i hope that never happens, Willian-Costa-Pedro trio with Bats on the bench makes our 10-11 strike options look creative!!!!!!

[PythonLu]

12 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

That's very true. I just think he has reached a high performance level for years and he is 33 now which is quite old for a winger.

I just thought I would try and explain why I don't think Hazard is world class. It's just an opinion which means nothing, I was interested to hear Cundy say the same thing. It was also interesting to hear him say that the term world class is used too much and that's exactly how I see it. 

You can restrict the term world-class to the best five players, our man Hazard would still be world class.

[Van Butsen]

Can't believe this is even a debate.

He's the best player in the premier league and clearly one of the best players in the world.

[Argo]

3 minutes ago, Van Butsen said:

Can't believe this is even a debate.

He's the best player in the premier league and clearly one of the best players in the world.

It's like the reverse of the Torres situation when people thought he was better than Sturridge/Eto'o and the Barca/City goals alone meant he wasn't a flop, insane.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Argo

[ashwin]

Ernie your dislike of stats, your private definition of "world class", these are all fads clearly removed from any rationale... How can you even dislike what you dont understand? You clearly do not even know how these stats are calulated (by your own admission) and yet you dislike them. 

You talk about consistency as a measure of being world class, you then talk about trophies. 

Here are two things everyone expects from any educated individual.

1) If you are interested in Squaka as you claim you are, please put in the effort of finding out how it works before you reach a judgement. Your opinion about stats is grounded in complete ignorance otherwise. Like Trump's refusal to believe in climate change. He would say "I have no idea how they do their science or draw these conclusions or what the conclusions even are but I disagree anyway".

2) Stay consistent in your arguments and never refer to any stats to prove your point when you will not allow anyone else to use them. Trophy numbers is a stat (even worse than goals or assists as an overly simple measure of an individuals performce especially given that it is a team stat). 

Please also define "world class" objectively so we know what you are talking about. It cant just be an abstract phrase. For me the defenition is that a wold class player must be good enough to get into the the squad of players chosen to represent the world. Hazard would be picked in such a squad by the majority of people around the world and he would even start for me.

Sorry for the trump reference, it quite a 'fad' nowadays.

@Ernie Please try and respond to every point made in this post, not just a line of your choice.

[Nibs]

16 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

For me Courtois, Neuer, De Gea and Buffon are world class keepers. Defender's like Ramos, Hummels, Alba and a few more. Iniesta, Busquets, Kroos. Just off the top of my head really.

Kroos? Would take Hazard over him all day long. Have seen him have loads of average games and get subbed often.

 

13 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Robben was very good for Chelsea. Injured too much to really judge his Chelsea career. I was talking about his whole career. He went to Madrid and won trophies. Has been at Bayern for ages and consistently won trophies. That's a level I don't think Hazard would reach IMO, would love to be proven wrong.

Blimey, I think most players could go to Madrid and Bayern and pick up a sh*t load of trophies!! 

I do agree though, Hazard just has this look at times of not being 100% committed and it is frustrating but then he does what he did against Arsenal (& Spurs and Liverpool last season) and it's hard to argue that he isn't World Class.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Nibs

[Ernie_blue]

46 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Kroos? Would take Hazard over him all day long. Have seen him have loads of average games and get subbed often.

 

Blimey, I think most players could go to Madrid and Bayern and pick up a sh*t load of trophies!! 

I do agree though, Hazard just has this look at times of not being 100% committed and it is frustrating but then he does what he did against Arsenal (& Spurs and Liverpool last season) and it's hard to argue that he isn't World Class.

 

 

Well Kroos plays a different position. Hazard has more talent than Ramos, Modric etc but Ramos for me is more a world class CB than Hazard is a winger.

I didn't just mean the trophies but Robben has been on a consistent level for quite some time. Played in champions league and World Cup finals. TBH Madrid haven't won the league for is it around 5 years so they are not as dominant over the years as Barca. Bayern at home is like the French league. His still scoring at 33. 

[Ernie_blue]

59 minutes ago, ashwin said:

Ernie your dislike of stats, your private definition of "world class", these are all fads clearly removed from any rationale... How can you even dislike what you dont understand? You clearly do not even know how these stats are calulated (by your own admission) and yet you dislike them. 

You talk about consistency as a measure of being world class, you then talk about trophies. 

Here are two things everyone expects from any educated individual.

1) If you are interested in Squaka as you claim you are, please put in the effort of finding out how it works before you reach a judgement. Your opinion about stats is grounded in complete ignorance otherwise. Like Trump's refusal to believe in climate change. He would say "I have no idea how they do their science or draw these conclusions or what the conclusions even are but I disagree anyway".

2) Stay consistent in your arguments and never refer to any stats to prove your point when you will not allow anyone else to use them. Trophy numbers is a stat (even worse than goals or assists as an overly simple measure of an individuals performce especially given that it is a team stat). 

Please also define "world class" objectively so we know what you are talking about. It cant just be an abstract phrase. For me the defenition is that a wold class player must be good enough to get into the the squad of players chosen to represent the world. Hazard would be picked in such a squad by the majority of people around the world and he would even start for me.

Sorry for the trump reference, it quite a 'fad' nowadays.

@Ernie Please try and respond to every point made in this post, not just a line of your choice.

My biggest problem with stats is the way people manipulate them. I think you learn a lot more about players just by watching a football match. For example on here I could say Kante was brilliant and Matic wasn't. Then someone will come back at me and say how do you work that one out when a stat website says Matic has 90% pass rate and Kante had 80%.

This is the start of a very big problem with stats. First of all just because someone has a higher success rate of passing doesn't mean they played better. Then you need to work out was the passes short or long, sideways and forwards. Was the player in question caught in a position where it was difficult to find a pass? Did one player miss place a pass in the opponents area or did the other lose the ball outside his own area giving the opposition chances. From those simple stats that people like to use as facts and have to be right to prove a point there are so many questions that you can simply have a better judgement from what a football match.