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The Nathan Ake Thread


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3 minutes ago, didierforever said:

RLC "was" at the same level as Alli 2 years ago. Both were starting their respective careers and RLC looked the real deal. I have already said what the difference in their development has been. In one short word: GAME TIME.

Performing a year in the eredivise compared to 2 very successful PL loans, looking great at an age of 17 playing in the europa and literally whenever given a shot. Not even comparable.

As for Cork, no one, not even he himself would have ever thought that he was Chelsea first team material. He had some very average loan spells too. If I remember correctly he was sold in 2011. A time when we were in dire need of a CM. Essien was gone, injured and battered. Mikel was well Mikel. Rambo had a shaky first season (10-11) and Lamps was on the decline. It was in those conditions that people wanted Cork to be given an opportunity. 

Comparing any of these players to Ake simply means that you dont rate him, meanwhile I feel he is one of the most talented players in the academy. "Jack of all trades" because he has the talent to play those roles as well as the footballing IQ. Selling such a player, that too Home grown, that too club trained  (for CL purposes) is one of the stupidest moves we could have made. 

Ruben never looked like the real deal, he made a couple of long bursting runs with his athletic frame and people thought we had our own Yaya Toure because of it. I have tried to convince myself otherwise with him for a while myself, but enoughs enough.

It wasnt the 10-11 conditions that had people calling for Cork, he had a solid spell in Burnley during the double season.

It's not really about comparing them, it's more to stress the point i have heard it all before. I think Ake is a decent player but i think Everton will be his ceiling as a starter. Would have been nice to have kept him as a squad player for the reasons you have gave, but if he didn't want that, what could we do?

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28 minutes ago, Argo said:

Ruben never looked like the real deal, he made a couple of long bursting runs with his athletic frame and people thought we had our own Yaya Toure because of it. I have tried to convince myself otherwise with him for a while myself, but enoughs enough.

It wasnt the 10-11 conditions that had people calling for Cork, he had a solid spell in Burnley during the double season.

It's not really about comparing them, it's more to stress the point i have heard it all before. I think Ake is a decent player but i think Everton will be his ceiling as a starter. Would have been nice to have kept him as a squad player for the reasons you have gave, but if he didn't want that, what could we do?

"Solid spell".That pretty much would have been my gist too. Sorry, But never heard ANYONE say that Cork was a gem. He was/is a decent player and thats what people have said.

RLC "never" looked like the real deal, huh? So mate, do tell me the how many minutes you have seen him play to come to that conclusion. Playing a professional game once in 4 months and that too for a 5 minute spell is never easy knowing that you need to create a moment of magic to even stand a chance of getting noticed. RLC has shown plenty of times that he is a top notch talent. Another one that we have wasted.

I can say the same thing. I have heard it all. Look at Lukaku, KDB, Bertrand. Other players like Salah who were never given a proper "chance". Ake is a GEM!! Not just a decent player.

 

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15 minutes ago, didierforever said:

"Solid spell".That pretty much would have been my gist too. Sorry, But never heard ANYONE say that Cork was a gem. He was/is a decent player and thats what people have said.

RLC "never" looked like the real deal, huh? So mate, do tell me the how many minutes you have seen him play to come to that conclusion. Playing a professional game once in 4 months and that too for a 5 minute spell is never easy knowing that you need to create a moment of magic to even stand a chance of getting noticed. RLC has shown plenty of times that he is a top notch talent. Another one that we have wasted.

I can say the same thing. I have heard it all. Look at Lukaku, KDB, Bertrand. Other players like Salah who were never given a proper "chance". Ake is a GEM!! Not just a decent player.

 

There is a reason 3 managers haven't given RLC much of a chance it's not like he is a blinding player and 3 managers haven't played him because there is a dark conspiracy to ruin youth at Chelsea. He looks big and powerful, he moves well and seems technical but there is a lot come than that to being a PL football player, he obviously hasn't quite got it.

ake is a good player but hardly a gem, will be very surprised if he becomes  a top tier player but if he does we have been smart  enough to put in a  buy back for a change 

Edited by DonAntonio
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2 minutes ago, DonAntonio said:

There is a reason 3 managers haven't given RLC much of a chance it's not like he is a blinding player and 3 managers haven't played him because there is a dark conspiracy to ruin youth at Chelsea. He looks big and powerful, he moves well and seems technical but there is a lot come than that to being a PL football player, he obviously hasn't quite got it.

ake is a good player but hardly a gem, will be very surprised if he becomes  a top tier player but if he does we have been smart  enough to put in a  buy back for a change 

AVB, RDM, Rafa Benitez, Jose mourinho - 4 managers  who did not give Lukaku a Chance. Were they all blind? Yet here we are now, buying for 70mil pounds as soon as he got a fair opportunity.

Just not smart enough to utilise his talent. 

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14 minutes ago, didierforever said:

AVB, RDM, Rafa Benitez, Jose mourinho - 4 managers  who did not give Lukaku a Chance. Were they all blind? Yet here we are now, buying for 70mil pounds as soon as he got a fair opportunity.

Just not smart enough to utilise his talent. 

He was 19 when Jose was there and was in the squad, even got to take a pen in the super cup,  however he wanted to lead the line for a team that won the CL just over a year before, he was and is a diva, he was 17/18 when AVB was about so there isn't much you can do with him. I wasn't sad to see him go and sure ain't happy he is coming back but what we should have had is a buy back on a sell on commission, that was the stupid part, not selling him. It's very hard to tell with youth almost impossible, and many clubs sell young players that end up becoming great, and on the flip side we passed up on mbappe who was on trial with us so we could let solanke and Tammy develop, you just can't tell with youth, there is only indicators but it's hit or miss, we can't give them all a chance it doesn't work, play yourself into the team or that's it, there is no charity at this level 

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28 minutes ago, DonAntonio said:

He was 19 when Jose was there and was in the squad, even got to take a pen in the super cup,  however he wanted to lead the line for a team that won the CL just over a year before, he was and is a diva, he was 17/18 when AVB was about so there isn't much you can do with him. I wasn't sad to see him go and sure ain't happy he is coming back but what we should have had is a buy back on a sell on commission, that was the stupid part, not selling him. It's very hard to tell with youth almost impossible, and many clubs sell young players that end up becoming great, and on the flip side we passed up on mbappe who was on trial with us so we could let solanke and Tammy develop, you just can't tell with youth, there is only indicators but it's hit or miss, we can't give them all a chance it doesn't work, play yourself into the team or that's it, there is no charity at this level 

Give them "all" a chance. Are you kidding me? Who exactly have we given a chance? Lukaku scored about 20 with wba and Everton and still did not get a chance. Ake has not put a foot wrong, still does not get a chance. Christensen is a common feature in a CL level bundealiga side is still deemed "not good enough". How does one play himself in the team when he is doing wonders at Bournemouth, then he is called back and made to sit on the bench for 4 months. Really, are you kidding me?  You are right though. This is not charity. Hence over paying for players we would have had to pay a dime for, if only we could show a bit of patience. Patience not charity is the right word here.

lukaku wanted to lead the line of a club that had just won the Cl and yet was in its worst position in over a decade. 19th may 2012 will be my best night, but let's not fool ourselves. Dd, anelka, kalou had left. Torres was pathetic and Sturbridge is glass. Lukaku was our best option and should have been given a chance. Also who cares how old he was. How does being 19 make you unclassified in leading a line. How old is mbappe? He was our best striker in 13-14 and yet Jose trusted the likes of Torres and grandpas like etoo and was chasing rooney instead of giving lukaku a shot. I am very sure mbappe would still have made a name for himself even in those circumstances. As for being a "diva", don't know how one becomes a diva by wanting to play, but no issue. Whatever floats your boat.

in the end, we have been proven to be stupid in letting lukaku go, buy back or no buy back. It is not because he actually has become one of the best strikers in the Pl, it's because anyone who understands football even a little could see it happening for some time. Yet we are so short sighted, that we did not even give him a chance to actually show his worth and just sold him. Very very similar to what we are doing with Ake. It's actually sad watching how the club views these youngsters. Just like commodities, a way to work around the FFP, instead of trying to blood them in. 

Edited by didierforever
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32 minutes ago, didierforever said:

 ..way to work around the FFP, instead of trying to blood them in. 

 

My question is this, is FFP even in existence anymore? I never hear the club or press talk about it. I feel like hardly any other club works to contort itself to FFP like we do. What is the latest with the whole implementation of FFP and all that? Not being snide because I genuinely have no idea.

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It is but not as heavily enforced in my view. We tend to abide by it as Roman was one of the owners who wanted it.

That said we don't really have any concerns these days because our revenue is enormous. We also just fobbed off Oscar for 60m to China.

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1 hour ago, didierforever said:

 

in the end, we have been proven to be stupid in letting lukaku go, buy back or no buy back. It is not because he actually has become one of the best strikers in the Pl, it's because anyone who understands football even a little could see it happening for some time. Yet we are so short sighted, that we did not even give him a chance to actually show his worth and just sold him. Very very similar to what we are doing with Ake. It's actually sad watching how the club views these youngsters. Just like commodities, a way to work around the FFP, instead of trying to blood them in. 

I don't think we're as worried about FFP as just turning over more profit with these young players to fund more buying. Nonetheless it's a shame how we operate with these kids. Yea Jose won us a title the 2nd time around and thats great but we may be in a better position long term if someone more willing to play young players were in charge. Like you said, it's short sighted. After that WBA loan there was no reason to loan Lukaku out again except the manager's hubris. Could you ever imagine Fergie doing the same?

Same goes for Ake now, he's proven he can play, they tried to outright buy him afterward and we kept him to sit the bench. They want him so much they're willing to pay 20m for him which probably makes him the most expensive player in their history. You're right he's hardly done a thing wrong, like Lukaku, yet we are still out looking for players to replace him with. Chalobah and Baker are in danger of this happening to them soon unless Conte is the one to break the tradition. God forbid Tammy scores 20 goals this season, we loan him out again because he wants to play and eventually have to pay 100m for him. 

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3 hours ago, didierforever said:

Give them "all" a chance. Are you kidding me? Who exactly have we given a chance? Lukaku scored about 20 with wba and Everton and still did not get a chance. Ake has not put a foot wrong, still does not get a chance. Christensen is a common feature in a CL level bundealiga side is still deemed "not good enough". How does one play himself in the team when he is doing wonders at Bournemouth, then he is called back and made to sit on the bench for 4 months. Really, are you kidding me?  You are right though. This is not charity. Hence over paying for players we would have had to pay a dime for, if only we could show a bit of patience. Patience not charity is the right word here.

lukaku wanted to lead the line of a club that had just won the Cl and yet was in its worst position in over a decade. 19th may 2012 will be my best night, but let's not fool ourselves. Dd, anelka, kalou had left. Torres was pathetic and Sturbridge is glass. Lukaku was our best option and should have been given a chance. Also who cares how old he was. How does being 19 make you unclassified in leading a line. How old is mbappe? He was our best striker in 13-14 and yet Jose trusted the likes of Torres and grandpas like etoo and was chasing rooney instead of giving lukaku a shot. I am very sure mbappe would still have made a name for himself even in those circumstances. As for being a "diva", don't know how one becomes a diva by wanting to play, but no issue. Whatever floats your boat.

in the end, we have been proven to be stupid in letting lukaku go, buy back or no buy back. It is not because he actually has become one of the best strikers in the Pl, it's because anyone who understands football even a little could see it happening for some time. Yet we are so short sighted, that we did not even give him a chance to actually show his worth and just sold him. Very very similar to what we are doing with Ake. It's actually sad watching how the club views these youngsters. Just like commodities, a way to work around the FFP, instead of trying to blood them in. 

By the time lukaku did that Jose was back and knew he was bringing in a world class striker, wasn't going to start a 19 year old lukau over incoming costa, lukaku wanted out. It's very easy if we have youth good enough to play they will we are not going to play youth thta are inferior to first team players just to develop them, doesn't happen in any elite club in world football, too much money involved, too much competition, too much pressure on managers, can't do it won't do it, none of them do, so you can bang the youth drum and tug at teh heart strings all you like, it's not viable in world football unless our managers are all f**king idiots and you have it right, if you want to watch youth come through, chelsea is the wrong club for you and thats the reality, thsi topic is really boring and had been milked dry to the bone. My only issue is get buy back clauses and sell on commission and it seems we have learned that is necessary. 

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4 hours ago, didierforever said:

"Solid spell".That pretty much would have been my gist too. Sorry, But never heard ANYONE say that Cork was a gem. He was/is a decent player and thats what people have said.

RLC "never" looked like the real deal, huh? So mate, do tell me the how many minutes you have seen him play to come to that conclusion. Playing a professional game once in 4 months and that too for a 5 minute spell is never easy knowing that you need to create a moment of magic to even stand a chance of getting noticed. RLC has shown plenty of times that he is a top notch talent. Another one that we have wasted.

I can say the same thing. I have heard it all. Look at Lukaku, KDB, Bertrand. Other players like Salah who were never given a proper "chance". Ake is a GEM!! Not just a decent player.

 

Whether he was seen as a gem or not is neither here nor there, fact is a lot of people wanted him to be given a shot and weren't happy when it didn't happen.

Saw him through youth level and never saw this amazing prospect everyone else seemed too (although when it became clear he was the one getting promoted i tried to kid myself otherwise), most of the time he looked like someone who doesn't want to be there but was forced by his parents. The 2014 YC final summed it up, with RLC on the pitch we were disjointed and 2-3 down, he goes off the team look so much better, we take control and we win 5-3, im not judging him solely on that its just the most extreme example and the one that stick's out the most. He's made 32 appearances for the first team, so what if a lot of appearances were off the bench you still need to make an impact (i remember him coming on a few times to see out games under Guus and doing the opposite, his pathetic attempt at closing down Drinkwater for example) and he hardly ever did. Outside of cup games vs league one (which is the league i think he will end up) oppo he only ever impressed me vs Stoke this season and Liverpool on his debut, any other time he's been average to awful and done jack all to warrant more chances and lucky to even get what he's got, its basically Oscar all over again (churning up constant rubbish display's but getting excused because of his supposed potential) but with Ruben thankfully getting less game time.  When i compare what i see of RLC to what i see of Abraham in terms of application especially, the difference is astranomical. 

Bertrand was given chances he played almost 60 times for us and was average, even though i don't agree with Lukaku being a mistake or Ake being a gem i can see the argument's on the contary, with Bertrand all i see is a standard full back who has found his level, if City sign him i will be doing cartwheel's because they are strong attacking fullback's away from becoming a scary force.

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2 hours ago, DonAntonio said:

By the time lukaku did that Jose was back and knew he was bringing in a world class striker, wasn't going to start a 19 year old lukau over incoming costa, lukaku wanted out. It's very easy if we have youth good enough to play they will we are not going to play youth thta are inferior to first team players just to develop them, doesn't happen in any elite club in world football, too much money involved, too much competition, too much pressure on managers, can't do it won't do it, none of them do, so you can bang the youth drum and tug at teh heart strings all you like, it's not viable in world football unless our managers are all f**king idiots and you have it right, if you want to watch youth come through, chelsea is the wrong club for you and thats the reality, thsi topic is really boring and had been milked dry to the bone. My only issue is get buy back clauses and sell on commission and it seems we have learned that is necessary. 

Lukaku wanting out had nothing to do with Jose playing schurlle as a false 9 at OT rather than giving lukaku a go. So for lukaku to get a chance Torres, ba and even schurrle had to unavailable. But don't let such facts ruin your one sided opinion about lukaku "wanting" to leave.

i am sorry, but it does not happen at any "elite" club? Are you sure? Asensio, morata, muller, kroos, lahm, alaba, busquets, xavi, iniesta etc Etc. By elite I think you meant the likes of Bayern, Barca, Madrid, all of which have had youth coming through. Infact the success of Bayern and Barca have mainly depended on a core of youth players. So there you go. "Can't do it, none of them do" and all that jazz that you just wrote is a myth. Nothing else

On the other hand, are we even elite at the moment. Since 2009-10 we are in transition and always look to be in one, I wonder why? Maybe it's the fact that most of our success is based on short term approach which does have a negative impact on the long term. So you see it's not just about tugging at the heart strings, is it? It's also a way to be uber successful. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we go and play a team of musonda, tammy, boga; silva, chalobah, rlc, aina;jcs, ake, Andreas. What I do mean is that if we have a chance like having 2 CBs who are 30+ and would need to be replaced in the near future, then we get long term replacements from the youth if they are of that level, which both of ake and Andreas have shown to be. This was literally the perfect the scenario for getting ake/andreas in the team. Don't worry though. I am sure he will be back in 2 years' time.

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3 hours ago, Argo said:

Whether he was seen as a gem or not is neither here nor there, fact is a lot of people wanted him to be given a shot and weren't happy when it didn't happen.

Saw him through youth level and never saw this amazing prospect everyone else seemed too (although when it became clear he was the one getting promoted i tried to kid myself otherwise), most of the time he looked like someone who doesn't want to be there but was forced by his parents. The 2014 YC final summed it up, with RLC on the pitch we were disjointed and 2-3 down, he goes off the team look so much better, we take control and we win 5-3, im not judging him solely on that its just the most extreme example and the one that stick's out the most. He's made 32 appearances for the first team, so what if a lot of appearances were off the bench you still need to make an impact (i remember him coming on a few times to see out games under Guus and doing the opposite, his pathetic attempt at closing down Drinkwater for example) and he hardly ever did. Outside of cup games vs league one (which is the league i think he will end up) oppo he only ever impressed me vs Stoke this season and Liverpool on his debut, any other time he's been average to awful and done jack all to warrant more chances and lucky to even get what he's got, its basically Oscar all over again (churning up constant rubbish display's but getting excused because of his supposed potential) but with Ruben thankfully getting less game time.  When i compare what i see of RLC to what i see of Abraham in terms of application especially, the difference is astranomical. 

Bertrand was given chances he played almost 60 times for us and was average, even though i don't agree with Lukaku being a mistake or Ake being a gem i can see the argument's on the contary, with Bertrand all i see is a standard full back who has found his level, if City sign him i will be doing cartwheel's because they are strong attacking fullback's away from becoming a scary force.

Of course IT is an issue. Cork was never rated highly and we ourselves were short on midfielders. Ake on the other hand IS rated highly. Some people might be disappointed about Traore but I have never seen anyone say that he can ever lead our line. Most except that he can be a decent back up, similar to cork. There is a massive difference in expectations here. For me, ake would be a first teamer even at the moment. He has shown time and again, that he has the potential.

our assessment of RlC could not possibly be any more apart, so let's just agree to disagree. 

I do agree with Bertrand being a standard full back. As was ferreira. Did not see him do any crazy sh*t and he kept churning out solid 7/10 performances week in and week out. Bertrand did/does that too. And I would love to have such players in the team. I don't want city to buy Bertrand because then they will have at least someone who can actually "defend"

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2 minutes ago, didierforever said:

Of course IT is an issue. Cork was never rated highly and we ourselves were short on midfielders. Ake on the other hand IS rated highly. Some people might be disappointed about Traore but I have never seen anyone say that he can ever lead our line. Most except that he can be a decent back up, similar to cork. There is a massive difference in expectations here. For me, ake would be a first teamer even at the moment. He has shown time and again, that he has the potential.

our assessment of RlC could not possibly be any more apart, so let's just agree to disagree. 

I do agree with Bertrand being a standard full back. As was ferreira. Did not see him do any crazy sh*t and he kept churning out solid 7/10 performances week in and week out. Bertrand did/does that too. And I would love to have such players in the team. I don't want city to buy Bertrand because then they will have at least someone who can actually "defend"

Ake is better than Cork, but how good he is is another question, for me he will be Everton/Villareal level standard. He's good but compared to Christensen and the other best young defenders around (Lemos for example) i can see why we are not that fussed over selling him.

Fair comparison with Ferreira, but on the same note, i wouldn't have been to bothered had he left for West Ham in 2007 as was rumoured and i certainly wouldn't have pined for him or declared selling him a mistake.

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1 hour ago, didierforever said:

Lukaku wanting out had nothing to do with Jose playing schurlle as a false 9 at OT rather than giving lukaku a go. So for lukaku to get a chance Torres, ba and even schurrle had to unavailable. But don't let such facts ruin your one sided opinion about lukaku "wanting" to leave.

i am sorry, but it does not happen at any "elite" club? Are you sure? Asensio, morata, muller, kroos, lahm, alaba, busquets, xavi, iniesta etc Etc. By elite I think you meant the likes of Bayern, Barca, Madrid, all of which have had youth coming through. Infact the success of Bayern and Barca have mainly depended on a core of youth players. So there you go. "Can't do it, none of them do" and all that jazz that you just wrote is a myth. Nothing else

On the other hand, are we even elite at the moment. Since 2009-10 we are in transition and always look to be in one, I wonder why? Maybe it's the fact that most of our success is based on short term approach which does have a negative impact on the long term. So you see it's not just about tugging at the heart strings, is it? It's also a way to be uber successful. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we go and play a team of musonda, tammy, boga; silva, chalobah, rlc, aina;jcs, ake, Andreas. What I do mean is that if we have a chance like having 2 CBs who are 30+ and would need to be replaced in the near future, then we get long term replacements from the youth if they are of that level, which both of ake and Andreas have shown to be. This was literally the perfect the scenario for getting ake/andreas in the team. Don't worry though. I am sure he will be back in 2 years' time.

You're giving examples of players that a) broke through 10 years ago and b) are world class, we don't have and haven't had any world class youth if we do I promise they will get in the team, Andreas is the best we have had I'd say and he will likely end up in the team but today he still isn't good enough to put out Garry but I'm all for having him back, bringing youth through is great but it's not practical in the PL in 2017 a manager won't risk his job to develop youth in a league that saw Leicester win it at 500/1 then sack their manager the next season, it's just not going to happen, we always make money on our youth players unless we buy them back of course but you can fix that with a clause, our youth system is a money maker it serves a purpose and if we get a ronaldo or a messi great, but England haven't produced many top top players in years, Gareth bale was the only one until Kane and Ali when you see the players coming out of Spain, France, Germany, Italy we are miles behind so we are going to just buy them and if you are Spanish or German you're going to get caught by the domestic clubs so our best bet is to buy young French and Belgian players and that's what we have been doing. 

Edited by DonAntonio
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1 hour ago, DonAntonio said:

You're giving examples of players that a) broke through 10 years ago and b) are world class, we don't have and haven't had any world class youth if we do I promise they will get in the team, Andreas is the best we have had I'd say and he will likely end up in the team but today he still isn't good enough to put out Garry but I'm all for having him back, bringing youth through is great but it's not practical in the PL in 2017 a manager won't risk his job to develop youth in a league that saw Leicester win it at 500/1 then sack their manager the next season, it's just not going to happen, we always make money on our youth players unless we buy them back of course but you can fix that with a clause, our youth system is a money maker it serves a purpose and if we get a ronaldo or a messi great, but England haven't produced many top top players in years, Gareth bale was the only one until Kane and Ali when you see the players coming out of Spain, France, Germany, Italy we are miles behind so we are going to just buy them and if you are Spanish or German you're going to get caught by the domestic clubs so our best bet is to buy young French and Belgian players and that's what we have been doing. 

Busquets was world class when Pep chose him over YAYA? Kroos/Muller was world class when they were shoved into the first team? Asensio is world class? He is chosen ahead of James and Isco. None of them were anywhere close to world class when they broke through. They were potential world class players exhibiting the right characteristics. Exactly what we had with Lukaku, KDB. Ake might not be world class potential but sure has the potential to be a very good defender, infact he is one already. I would say Andreas truly has world class potential.

I am sorry, but you are wrong again. Managers have risked their jobs in bringing in the youth aka Poch. I would say Spurs is one of the best teams in the league. Add a couple of world class players like Hazard and Kante, and you would have PL champions. Point is we already have the likes of Hazard, Kante, Tibo, we are looking to buy the likes of Bakayoko and Sandro, we definitely have the chance to give some of our finest youth an opportunity aka Ake and Andreas. Most of our youth players are not english: Ake, Andreas, Musonda, Boga (atleast most of the youth which are highly rated), Tammy being the exception. So i Dont know why you are bringing in the english youth angle in here. We buy youth from all around the world (traore for example).

I totally agree that our youth system is a money making system, and its a real shame. There is a reason why we have players like Costa who are liteally looking for an opportunity to run away rather than players like JT who would fight it out even with broken ribs.

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Take a look around at the top teams in English football. They all play young players who aren't world class or the best in their position at their own club even. No team in the world is stacked with top level backup players bar Real and they're the only ones who get away with it because of money and the name on their shirt. 

Who had the most appearences for United? A 19 year old from their academy. City used a quite a few youth players, Iheanacho played nearly double what Chalo did (our most used academy player not counting JT). Iwobi 4x as much for Arsenal. We have a serious problem with trusting our top class, trophy laden youth players and young players in general. 

Sure buying a new CB would be an upgrade now but it pushes younger players, homegrown players, down the pecking order and they never see the light of day here. Do we live in a world where Ake isn't good enough to be a 2nd choice CB? 

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Our loan system kind of reminds me of farming/gardening games I used to play.

You buy seeds for a low price, so you can grow them into fresh vegetables that other people want, then you sell them and use that money to buy your own food, and to buy more seeds, so you can repeat the process.

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4 hours ago, TheChelseaBlues said:

Take a look around at the top teams in English football. They all play young players who aren't world class or the best in their position at their own club even. No team in the world is stacked with top level backup players bar Real and they're the only ones who get away with it because of money and the name on their shirt. 

Who had the most appearences for United? A 19 year old from their academy. City used a quite a few youth players, Iheanacho played nearly double what Chalo did (our most used academy player not counting JT). Iwobi 4x as much for Arsenal. We have a serious problem with trusting our top class, trophy laden youth players and young players in general. 

Sure buying a new CB would be an upgrade now but it pushes younger players, homegrown players, down the pecking order and they never see the light of day here. Do we live in a world where Ake isn't good enough to be a 2nd choice CB? 

And look where Iheanacho is now, about to sign for West Ham. Put it another way, Kelechi in two years made marginally more appearances that Bertrand did in 11-12 and 12-13, yet that's proof City trust there players and we don't? And where are these quite a few other young players? Are you counting the one's that faced us in the cup and got stuffed?

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4 hours ago, TheChelseaBlues said:

Iwobi 4x as much for Arsenal.

Personally I don't think it's a coincidence that Arsenal's late run at the back end of last season coincided with Iwobi being dropped (and arguably the likes of Walcott, Ox, Gibbs, and Wilshere may no longer have a future at the club). For me if we wish to retain (and attract) top players like Hazard we have to be careful not to fall into the same state of mediocrity.

Edited by the special one
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9 hours ago, didierforever said:

Busquets was world class when Pep chose him over YAYA? Kroos/Muller was world class when they were shoved into the first team? Asensio is world class? He is chosen ahead of James and Isco. None of them were anywhere close to world class when they broke through. They were potential world class players exhibiting the right characteristics. Exactly what we had with Lukaku, KDB. Ake might not be world class potential but sure has the potential to be a very good defender, infact he is one already. I would say Andreas truly has world class potential.

I am sorry, but you are wrong again. Managers have risked their jobs in bringing in the youth aka Poch. I would say Spurs is one of the best teams in the league. Add a couple of world class players like Hazard and Kante, and you would have PL champions. Point is we already have the likes of Hazard, Kante, Tibo, we are looking to buy the likes of Bakayoko and Sandro, we definitely have the chance to give some of our finest youth an opportunity aka Ake and Andreas. Most of our youth players are not english: Ake, Andreas, Musonda, Boga (atleast most of the youth which are highly rated), Tammy being the exception. So i Dont know why you are bringing in the english youth angle in here. We buy youth from all around the world (traore for example).

I totally agree that our youth system is a money making system, and its a real shame. There is a reason why we have players like Costa who are liteally looking for an opportunity to run away rather than players like JT who would fight it out even with broken ribs.

Nope poch firstly was over performing and his job is not at risk and expectations not as high, secondly the youth he brought in was better than the options he had, totally different, Chelsea would be taking out a first team player and replacing them with inferior players, is that what you are looking for? 

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7 hours ago, Argo said:

And look where Iheanacho is now, about to sign for West Ham. Put it another way, Kelechi in two years made marginally more appearances that Bertrand did in 11-12 and 12-13, yet that's proof City trust there players and we don't? And where are these quite a few other young players? Are you counting the one's that faced us in the cup and got stuffed?

Its proof other teams in England give chances to academy players. Getting stuffed is beside the point. They played and were trusted enough to do so. If they were class enough to beat us they wouldn't be backups which is all I'm asking for. I'm not suggesting we roll with Aina or RLC as our 1st choice players but they deserve the opportunity to prove they can or can't handle it. The kids who won all those u18 and u23 trophies especially deserve a shot at cracking the first team and playing.

Give some a chance at least. For God's sake we won't even use our 3rd gk slot on a homegrown player.

 

6 hours ago, the special one said:

Personally I don't think it's a coincidence that Arsenal's late run at the back end of last season coincided with Iwobi being dropped (and arguably the likes of Walcott, Ox, Gibbs, and Wilshere may no longer have a future at the club). For me if we wish to retain (and attract) top players like Hazard we have to be careful not to fall into the same state of mediocrity.

Yea Iwobi ain't very good, which makes it all the more puzzling. 

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6 minutes ago, TheChelseaBlues said:

Its proof other teams in England give chances to academy players. Getting stuffed is beside the point. They played and were trusted enough to do so. If they were class enough to beat us they wouldn't be backups which is all I'm asking for. I'm not suggesting we roll with Aina or RLC as our 1st choice players but they deserve the opportunity to prove they can or can't handle it. The kids who won all those u18 and u23 trophies especially deserve a shot at cracking the first team and playing.

Give some a chance at least. For God's sake we won't even use our 3rd gk slot on a homegrown player.

Yea Iwobi ain't very good, which makes it all the more puzzling. 

Proof? The main source of your argument was Iheanacho and it took me less than 10 second's to think of a player a player we gave similar game time to via a promotion. Ruben has had 32 appearance's to prove himself and he's failed, so what if many were off the bench would be similar with Kelechi.

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2 hours ago, DonAntonio said:

Nope poch firstly was over performing and his job is not at risk and expectations not as high, secondly the youth he brought in was better than the options he had, totally different, Chelsea would be taking out a first team player and replacing them with inferior players, is that what you are looking for? 

Obviously. I mean Alli and Dier were the highest rated youth players in england, right? Can you stop making up things? 

Also you conviniently opted to ignore the majority of my post which asked you which youth players were world class when they were given their first team opportunity. 

If it means having long term success then sure. Also, I dont think anyone here has said that Ake would be a starter this season. a 20-30 game season (cup games,some PL matches due to injury and suspension as well as sub perfomances) would be the perfect way to integrate him in a team where 2 out of the 3 starting Cbs are 30+

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1 hour ago, didierforever said:

Obviously. I mean Alli and Dier were the highest rated youth players in england, right? Can you stop making up things? 

Also you conviniently opted to ignore the majority of my post which asked you which youth players were world class when they were given their first team opportunity. 

If it means having long term success then sure. Also, I dont think anyone here has said that Ake would be a starter this season. a 20-30 game season (cup games,some PL matches due to injury and suspension as well as sub perfomances) would be the perfect way to integrate him in a team where 2 out of the 3 starting Cbs are 30+

I didn't conveniently ignore sh*t you write essays that require essays back, jumping from one thing to the next arguing to your last breath.

to answer all: There is no "which were world class" they are world class now , someone saw that and played them, by virtue of them being good enough. Not a coincidence.

Can I ask why you're obsessed with youth? Do you actually give a sh*t or it's just a like generator...call for the youth rhetoric and people will like it because they think it makes them real fans.

ill tell you about youth, managers couldn't give a sh*t and neither should we, they care about their career and results, if a player is good enough the loan system will show he is good enough, they assess before they sell, do you think they are all stupid?

The reason for mistakes like KDB who looks to be dipping in form anyway and Lukaku who in my opinion is a good goal scorer but not a good footballer is that it's hard to tell with youth unless they are standouts like the names you said. 

Look ag all our promising youth that amounted to f**k all, imagine if we played them would we have the success we have? 

And yea Alli was a standout and yes he was better than other option just because you didn't read about him the manager saw something in him, that's his job. 

Loaning out youth giving them a chance to prove themselves works, not bringing them in the first team of elite clubs how is that possible? 

You will always get ones that slip through like pogba in fact a great example a player who was f**ked off by the man who is famous for the class of '93, do you have any advise for fergie on not giving youth a chance since he let pogba go? See the difference in time? 

Its all bollox and you don't have to agree with me but by not you're disagreeing with every manager we have had in the past 10 years, the board and every other elite club for the past decade.

i don't get what you want, but moaning about youth is honestly very boring and you do it every other post, get over it mate we can't do it, if they are good enough they will prove themselves, If not they get sold on and the club have learned get in clauses on the sale problem solved. 

Hopefully you can get over it you're not going to change club policy and have no viable alternative, I have ignored your posts for a month because you're very argumentative and if I cave and make one comment it turns into a big debacle, we won't play youth, managers won't risk jobs, if stand out they will play, my points are finished, thanks. 

 

Edited by DonAntonio
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