*Official* Pedro to Chelsea

[jack_super_class]

On 15/02/2018 at 10:02, abramovich said:

All we have to do is build a time machine, go back a few years and show the CFC board what KDB and Salah are capable of now. Then have them sack Jose instead of selling the players. Voila, we've got us a Hazard-KDB-Salah attacking unit. 

Can anyone believe we bought those two for 7m and 11m? Of all the sh*tty things Mourinho has done to us, this is one that keeps coming back to haunt us every time I watch City or Pool play. What a disaster.

If we still had all those 3 we'd be laughing right now, our attack is the reason we are 4th at the moment. I can't blame Mourinho for Salah because he was pretty useless for us although he was always a handful in every game he played he just looked out of his depth. However KDB is all mourinhos fault i can't believe people defend him for it, just poor management.

[Munkunku]

[Ukraine Bolt]

5 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

"On the opening day of the season, Mourinho puts De Bruyne in the starting XI against Hull, alongside Hazard and Oscar." - Not competing with Oscar for that one.

He wasn't frozen out, he wasn't actually good enough then to compete with Mata, Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle and eventually Willian as well.  ALL internationals.  Tell me which one of those he was better than at the time?

People blaming Mourinho seem to be ignoring that and the fact that Mourinho said  “If De Bruyne doesn’t play 20 games this season, than it’s because he doesn’t deserve it. If he deserves it, he will play. If you guys in Belgium are afraid, talk to him. Put pressure on him. Tell him, ‘Hey kid, you have to become man of the match’. I can live with that. Kevin is a great player, but there’s a lot of competition. In the national place he’s probably a guaranteed starter, and with Werder too. But this is another level. "

 

And then "he gets his chance to prove Mourinho wrong in the Capital One Cup game against Swindon, but he fails to impress. He’s hooked after 78 minutes. The manager doesn’t like what he sees. He leaves de Bruyne of out the squad for the game at Spurs. Mourinho explains in his press conference: “If we all agree that Juan Mata deserves his chance, I have to leave one player out of the squad. Kevin hasn’t convinced me against Swindon, so he’s out of the squad. Kevin has to understand that Chelsea aren’t Werder Bremen. You have to fight for your spot every single training and every single game. The next time he’s play – and he will play – he has to understand he plays for his next game.”

Mourinho also said in a press conference " I try to be honest with Kevin. He’s not selected because I didn’t like the match he played against Swindon and I didn’t like the way he was training."

Why is it that people just can't accept he was not great for us, has become a great player with experience, but that a team fighting for top honours cannot afford to play some one of a lower level for weeks and weeks in the hope that he will come good and be a world beater.  With hindsight, maybe he could have been kept.  At the time he did NOTHING to warrant displacing any of the other attacking midfielders in the team..

This comes from the same manager that continually selected Ivanovic after about 20 sh*t games on the bounce. It was nothing to do with KdB's performance, it was Mourinho not knowing how to handle and nurture a youth player again.

[yorkleyblue]

If you say so.  I don't think you really understand football management, or the requirements of, and pressures on, a top football club, but you keep on with your anti-Mourinho stance, if it makes you happy.

[Munkunku]

———————————————

That’s me drawining a line under it. Please @coco or @Mod Stark make it stop! Won’t somebody please think of poor old Pedro and his hijacked thread?

[coco]

10 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

———————————————

That’s me drawining a line under it. Please @coco or @Mod Stark make it stop! Won’t somebody please think of poor old Pedro and his hijacked thread?

This forum exists for just this, debate within the house rules.

[Munkunku]

6 minutes ago, coco said:

This forum exists for just this, debate within the house rules.

I feel this debate won’t stop until somebody dies 

[coco]

1 minute ago, Munkworth said:

I feel this debate won’t stop until somebody dies 

If you leave two people to 'discuss' their polar beliefs long enough, they get a room together.

[dkw]

8 minutes ago, coco said:

If you leave two people to 'discuss' their polar beliefs long enough, they get a room together.

Ah, now we see coco's courting techniques, bludgeoning the poor girl with arguments until she just gives in.... 

[coco]

Just now, dkw said:

Ah, now we see coco's courting techniques, bludgeoning the poor girl with arguments until she just gives in.... 

I met my Mrs when we were 18, she decided straight away i was right, since then it's been up all the way.

[dkw]

7 minutes ago, coco said:

I met my Mrs when we were 18, she decided straight away i was right, since then it's been up all the way.

Too much information...... 

[BiafranBlue]

Starting tonight and he is playing well albeit against poor Hull.

[yorkleyblue]

3 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I feel this debate won’t stop until somebody dies 

My belief in the general concept that all people have  modicum of common sense has now died.

3 hours ago, coco said:

I met my Mrs when we were 18, she decided straight away i was right, since then it's been up all the way.

Up what? or where?  Up the Arsenal?

[coco]

10 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

My belief in the general concept that all people have  modicum of common sense has now died.

Up what? or where?  Up the Arsenal?

[Munkunku]

So ——>Pedro<—— ran around a lot and scored a goal tonight. Good for him to score after he missed a few good chances lately, might get his confidence up a bit. 

[Davey Baby]

At the risk of upsetting yorkley and having my entire post dismissed as just "stuff" and having him bare his arse* at me, I'll wage into the debate about KDB.

 

When a young player breaks into the first team, if they're to have any chance at all, you have to be a bit patient. I remember Lampard at the age of 23 coming to Chelsea. He wasn't that good. I remember people saying he was sh*t. I also remember people calling for patience. You can't rush to a judgement with new players, particularly young ones, and Lampard wasn't even that young.

 

What Lampard did have was a nurturing manager, and that's where he got lucky. By the time Jose came along he was already a fabulous player, as was JT. Jose may have taken their game up a notch but had he arrived at Chelsea three or four years earlier there's no way JT or Lampard would have even been at the club, and if they were, their development would have been stifled, and they'd never have become the same players.

 

KDB was bought by Chelsea with an immense reputation. He was already a Belgian international. He had inspired Genk to the title, as well as other domestic cups. He was getting goals and assists galore, and he was a teenager. This was a prodigious talent, and in those days, we had enough clout to get him.

 

He spent the next year and a half on loan, with a year in Germany, where he scored 10 goals in 30 games. Not bad for a 21 year old kid, playing his first season in a major league. Not a bad goal tally, considering he wasn't a striker, he either played central midfield or on the flank. I remember saying at the time, on this forum, that he reminded me of David Beckham, and I predicted he would be even better. I'm not blowing my own trumpet. It was obvious he had quality. We knew he had quality. That's why we went out and spent good money on a teenager.

 

So, a year and a half after signing, he finally gets his chance, and what a debut, man of the match in a resounding win, Sky giving him the award. I remember that game vividly. I had waited a long time to see him in a blue shirt and I was very excited to see him develop. It was clear he had massive potential. I also remember that game for another reason. We were 2-0 up at HT, playing some lovely free-flowing stuff and the second half promised to be fun, except, sadly, Jose had different ideas. "Fun" wasn't what Jose did. The football was clearly too free-flowing. The players were playing with a carefree abandon. At half-time he rectified it, and the second half turned into a non-event, but I'm sure Jose was happy with it, because the players were no longer ignoring his instructions.

 

There was the warning sign right there. Jose put the handbrake on at half-time and ordered the players to conform to his structure, and, having played Hull off the park in the first half, he succeeded in sucking all the life out of the game. I remember being very disappointed.

 

Tellingly, KDB didn't feature in the next match. He had impressed everybody watching but not the manager, and therein lies the story.

 

KDB got a few games after that, I'm not sure how many but not many, and then he was out, because he wasn't doing what Jose wanted him to do tactically, or maybe because he simply wasn't interested. I have a hunch (which is backed up by a reliable source) that KDB felt that Jose was too intent on making him a better defensive player, rather than a better offensive one. KDB wanted a little creative licence, a little freedom on the park, and in that sense it soon became apparent he had the wrong manager. KDB wasn't obeying his instructions to the letter and Jose lost patience, rather quickly, and took him out the side. KDB was given scant opportunities after that, the odd game here or there, but Jose felt this wasn't a player who hung on his every word and worshipped the ground he walked on, so he was sold. It was a pitiful lack of judgement, but KDB had got his judgement bang on.

 

Jose was happy. He could turn Oscar into Lee Cattermole instead.

 

There are those that say he deserved to be sold, because he did nothing in a blue shirt. Laughable. He. Wasn't. Given. A. Chance. Same with Salah under Mourinho. Not. Given. A. Chance. A handful of games does not constitute a chance, especially when you're young and foreign, and especially when you're new to a big league and a big club, with all the pressure that brings. Some managers want to build, some want to nurture, some are only thinking of the short-term and go into a sulk when they can't have ready-made stars to fill every position. Jose was one of the latter. He wasn't interested if a player was going to be good tomorrow, and KDB had shown enough promise hitherto in his career to suggest he was going to be very good tomorrow, otherwise I don't think Wolfsburg were going to smash their transfer record for him. They knew something we didn't. They knew he was f**king good.

 

KDB and Salah played a handful of times for Chelsea, and yet we have fans saying they deserved to be sold. How could they possibly know? They hadn't seen them for any meaningful period. They'd watched them for about ten minutes. The problem wasn't the players. It transpires it was the manager, giving them too many messages, messing with their heads, telling them to track back instead of forward. Either way, people shouldn't be too quick to judge. Give a player a little time, before you make your assessment. You never know they just might surprise you. Look at Lampard.

 

So KDB went to Germany, and immediately won POTY in the Bundesliga, just like he'd won the award for best young player when we'd loaned him to Germany previously. Fancy that. He was good before he joined us, and good immediately after. Maybe he was good when he was with us. He just wasn't given a chance.

 

He could have stayed at Chelsea of course and picked up his wages but he took a step down because he wanted to play and he knew he was good enough. Sadly his manager at Chelsea wasn't so astute. It was the best career move the player ever made.

 

Of course many Chelsea fans felt we got good money when we sold him, and they were happy to see him go. I wasn't one of them, but there you go, we all get some things right and some things wrong. Since he's left however, it's been amusing watching people trying to convince themselves he isn't that good. He was great in Germany but it was only Germany. He looked good for City but what had he won for them? He never turned up in big games apparently. Strange, because all I ever saw was a great player, a top player, who was only ever getting better. 

 

* It's a great arse. Let's make no bones about it.

[didierforever]

2 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

At the risk of upsetting yorkley and having my entire post dismissed as just "stuff" and having him bare his arse* at me, I'll wage into the debate about KDB.

 

When a young player breaks into the first team, if they're to have any chance at all, you have to be a bit patient. I remember Lampard at the age of 23 coming to Chelsea. He wasn't that good. I remember people saying he was sh*t. I also remember people calling for patience. You can't rush to a judgement with new players, particularly young ones, and Lampard wasn't even that young.

 

What Lampard did have was a nurturing manager, and that's where he got lucky. By the time Jose came along he was already a fabulous player, as was JT. Jose may have taken their game up a notch but had he arrived at Chelsea three or four years earlier there's no way JT or Lampard would have even been at the club, and if they were, their development would have been stifled, and they'd never have become the same players.

 

KDB was bought by Chelsea with an immense reputation. He was already a Belgian international. He had inspired Genk to the title, as well as other domestic cups. He was getting goals and assists galore, and he was a teenager. This was a prodigious talent, and in those days, we had enough clout to get him.

 

He spent the next year and a half on loan, with a year in Germany, where he scored 10 goals in 30 games. Not bad for a 21 year old kid, playing his first season in a major league. Not a bad goal tally, considering he wasn't a striker, he either played central midfield or on the flank. I remember saying at the time, on this forum, that he reminded me of David Beckham, and I predicted he would be even better. I'm not blowing my own trumpet. It was obvious he had quality. We knew he had quality. That's why we went out and spent good money on a teenager.

 

So, a year and a half after signing, he finally gets his chance, and what a debut, man of the match in a resounding win, Sky giving him the award. I remember that game vividly. I had waited a long time to see him in a blue shirt and I was very excited to see him develop. It was clear he had massive potential. I also remember that game for another reason. We were 2-0 up at HT, playing some lovely free-flowing stuff and the second half promised to be fun, except, sadly, Jose had different ideas. "Fun" wasn't what Jose did. The football was clearly too free-flowing. The players were playing with a carefree abandon. At half-time he rectified it, and the second half turned into a non-event, but I'm sure Jose was happy with it, because the players were no longer ignoring his instructions.

 

There was the warning sign right there. Jose put the handbrake on at half-time and ordered the players to conform to his structure, and, having played Hull off the park in the first half, he succeeded in sucking all the life out of the game. I remember being very disappointed.

 

Tellingly, KDB didn't feature in the next match. He had impressed everybody watching but not the manager, and therein lies the story.

 

KDB got a few games after that, I'm not sure how many but not many, and then he was out, because he wasn't doing what Jose wanted him to do tactically, or maybe because he simply wasn't interested. I have a hunch (which is backed up by a reliable source) that KDB felt that Jose was too intent on making him a better defensive player, rather than a better offensive one. KDB wanted a little creative licence, a little freedom on the park, and in that sense it soon became apparent he had the wrong manager. KDB wasn't obeying his instructions to the letter and Jose lost patience, rather quickly, and took him out the side. KDB was given scant opportunities after that, the odd game here or there, but Jose felt this wasn't a player who hung on his every word and worshipped the ground he walked on, so he was sold. It was a pitiful lack of judgement, but KDB had got his judgement bang on.

 

Jose was happy. He could turn Oscar into Lee Cattermole instead.

 

There are those that say he deserved to be sold, because he did nothing in a blue shirt. Laughable. He. Wasn't. Given. A. Chance. Same with Salah under Mourinho. Not. Given. A. Chance. A handful of games does not constitute a chance, especially when you're young and foreign, and especially when you're new to a big league and a big club, with all the pressure that brings. Some managers want to build, some want to nurture, some are only thinking of the short-term and go into a sulk when they can't have ready-made stars to fill every position. Jose was one of the latter. He wasn't interested if a player was going to be good tomorrow, and KDB had shown enough promise hitherto in his career to suggest he was going to be very good tomorrow, otherwise I don't think Wolfsburg were going to smash their transfer record for him. They knew something we didn't. They knew he was f**king good.

 

KDB and Salah played a handful of times for Chelsea, and yet we have fans saying they deserved to be sold. How could they possibly know? They hadn't seen them for any meaningful period. They'd watched them for about ten minutes. The problem wasn't the players. It transpires it was the manager, giving them too many messages, messing with their heads, telling them to track back instead of forward. Either way, people shouldn't be too quick to judge. Give a player a little time, before you make your assessment. You never know they just might surprise you. Look at Lampard.

 

So KDB went to Germany, and immediately won POTY in the Bundesliga, just like he'd won the award for best young player when we'd loaned him to Germany previously. Fancy that. He was good before he joined us, and good immediately after. Maybe he was good when he was with us. He just wasn't given a chance.

 

He could have stayed at Chelsea of course and picked up his wages but he took a step down because he wanted to play and he knew he was good enough. Sadly his manager at Chelsea wasn't so astute. It was the best career move the player ever made.

 

Of course many Chelsea fans felt we got good money when we sold him, and they were happy to see him go. I wasn't one of them, but there you go, we all get some things right and some things wrong. Since he's left however, it's been amusing watching people trying to convince themselves he isn't that good. He was great in Germany but it was only Germany. He looked good for City but what had he won for them? He never turned up in big games apparently. Strange, because all I ever saw was a great player, a top player, who was only ever getting better. 

 

* It's a great arse. Let's make no bones about it.

Well said brother!!! 

Honestly everything I and others have wanted to say. Brilliantly put.

[Spiller86]

All fair points @Davey Baby, but no idea how you remember all that! I had to check Shed End Hansard to see what I thought at the time. 

Certainly he is one of the biggest mistakes of the Mourinho era, but I remember being far more enraged by the mistreatment and sale of Mata than I was about KdB. Certainly there was an element of fault on Kevin's side as well. His ability to follow instructions in games or training left a lot to be desired.

The silly thing is that Oscar was prioritised over both because of his ability to press. Shame he was useless at everything else. 

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Spiller86

[Alejandro]

I think the mistake was to sell him instead of loan. This January we did correctly to loan - not sell - Michy.

[Davey Baby]

10 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Certainly he is one of the biggest mistakes of the Mourinho era, but I remember being far more enraged by the mistreatment and sale of Mata than I was about KdB. Certainly there was an element of fault on Kevin's side as well. His ability to follow instructions in games or training left a lot to be desired.

 

He had a manager that wanted to straightjacket him, Spiller, a manager that would never dream of letting a young player make mistakes, or heaven forbid, play his natural game. De Bruyne knew what he was capable of, and he got out of there as fast as he could. He was clear and he was decisive and he's been proven correct. Shame our manager was so short-sighted.

[Argo]

24 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

He had a manager that wanted to straightjacket him, Spiller, a manager that would never dream of letting a young player make mistakes, or heaven forbid, play his natural game. De Bruyne knew what he was capable of, and he got out of there as fast as he could. He was clear and he was decisive and he's been proven correct. Shame our manager was so short-sighted.

Watching Mason Mount play for Vittese i feel with the right development he could be a similar player to KDB and therefore for all intents and purposes it will feel like a second chance. With Mount, Hudson Odoi, Amps and Sterling coming through it's CRUCIAL that whoever replaces Conte this summer has a good track record with young players (Poch would be perfect but that isn't happening). I wasn't that arsed with the previous batch of youngsters because Tammy aside i felt and still feel for various reasons they will never be CFC quality  (Ruben and Boga because they don't  influence games enough, Musonda and Kenedy because they are all style and little substance, Ake and Traore could have been squad players but weren't that arsed when they left) but those four are absolute diamonds who can be anything they want to be.

If we are refusing to compete with the big boys financially then it's crucial we developed the potential £100m players we have got, because that's the only other way to compete with them long term spending little net in comparison. 

[Backbiter]

12 hours ago, Munkworth said:

So ——>Pedro<—— ran around a lot and scored a goal tonight. Good for him to score after he missed a few good chances lately, might get his confidence up a bit. 

I've watched every games he's played for us, and my opinion remains the same: I can't decide if he's a quality player or not. He has qualities, plenty of them: he can finish, he shows some great touches, he is prepared to work hard. But he is ridiculously inconsistent, he's not a great passer of the ball, and he often goes into headless chicken mode. I'm not fence-sitting, he just confuses me, but on balance produces more frustration in me than admiration. 

[BiafranBlue]

2 hours ago, Backbiter said:

I've watched every games he's played for us, and my opinion remains the same: I can't decide if he's a quality player or not. He has qualities, plenty of them: he can finish, he shows some great touches, he is prepared to work hard. But he is ridiculously inconsistent, he's not a great passer of the ball, and he often goes into headless chicken mode. I'm not fence-sitting, he just confuses me, but on balance produces more frustration in me than admiration. 

I swear, even the way he runs.

He runs like a headless chicken.

 

 

[Ballack & Blu]

8 hours ago, Backbiter said:

I've watched every games he's played for us, and my opinion remains the same: I can't decide if he's a quality player or not. He has qualities, plenty of them: he can finish, he shows some great touches, he is prepared to work hard. But he is ridiculously inconsistent, he's not a great passer of the ball, and he often goes into headless chicken mode. I'm not fence-sitting, he just confuses me, but on balance produces more frustration in me than admiration. 

What a crock of sh*t.......imho of course

[Davey Baby]

9 hours ago, Argo said:

Watching Mason Mount play for Vittese i feel with the right development he could be a similar player to KDB and therefore for all intents and purposes it will feel like a second chance. With Mount, Hudson Odoi, Amps and Sterling coming through it's CRUCIAL that whoever replaces Conte this summer has a good track record with young players (Poch would be perfect but that isn't happening). I wasn't that arsed with the previous batch of youngsters because Tammy aside i felt and still feel for various reasons they will never be CFC quality  (Ruben and Boga because they don't  influence games enough, Musonda and Kenedy because they are all style and little substance, Ake and Traore could have been squad players but weren't that arsed when they left) but those four are absolute diamonds who can be anything they want to be.

If we are refusing to compete with the big boys financially then it's crucial we developed the potential £100m players we have got, because that's the only other way to compete with them long term spending little net in comparison. 

 

I'll have to take your word about Mount and Sterling, but I agree about Ampadu and Hudson-Odoi. They are both clearly the real deal, in terms of potential. Whether they fulfil that potential remains to be seen. 

 

I agree about manager. I've said before we need a builder. Conte is already on his 8th job and he's been managing less than 12 years. Before we hired Jose for a second time I was an advocate of David Moyes. Perhaps not my finest moment although I couldn't see a whole range of alternatives. Jose came in, a manager incapable of staying at a club beyond three years, a manager uninterested in nurturing and developing youth. For me the principle remains the same. If we want to see Ampadu and Hudson-Odoi get significant minutes next season, as we do, then I agree with you, bring in the right kind of manager, a different kind of manager, one that relishes the challenge and the opportunity to work with so much talent rather than one that demands the finished article in every single position. Klopp is the one I really admire, more so than Pochettino. The thought of Luis Enrique just leaves me cold.