Vidahost - UK Web Hosting
Vidahost - UK Web Hosting


Barrettinator

Virgil Van Dijk

143 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, bola said:

Those qualities are not usually associate with a defender, you even used hazard for your example..  It's not easy to find one but when you do manage to find one, chance is, he's not very good at defending..

Make no mistake, I'm not against getting this so called ball playing defender but I prefer my defender to be solid when defending but that's not to say I prefer an orthodox no nonsense defender because like I said before I don't like my defenders doing blind clearance too casually.. I don't even like them going to ground too easily for the tackle..

 

Just name your targets..

 

 

 

....stop would you mate, those are the attributes of a ball playing CB and plenty of them have it, luiz has all of those attributes, I highlighted hazard as an extreme example as specifically labelled as such to illustrate why those attributes are useful so there was no duspute, then you say "you used hazard as An example"  and I knew you would hence I outlined, "extreme example" honestly you don't know what you're talking about there is no point...don't think I need to name my targets you could look at the title of this thread...top of the class stuff ehh 

Edited by DonAntonio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, DonAntonio said:

....stop would you mate, those are the attributes of a ball playing CB and plenty of them have it, luiz has all of those attributes, I highlighted hazard as an extreme example as specifically labelled as such to illustrate why those attributes are useful so there was no duspute, then you say "you used hazard as An example"  and I knew you would hence I outlined, "extreme example" honestly you don't know what you're talking about there is no point...don't think I need to name my targets you could look at the title of this thread...top of the class stuff ehh 

Ok, just 1 more time and after that I'll probably stop as requested.. this time I'll cut to the chase..  Since you mentioned luiz, let's talk about him.. Luiz could make that hollywood pass but he missed by quite a lot which immediately turn to lost of possession.. He could dribble away past his marker but being last defender, it's risky, for example his ball was stolen in the spurs game when he tried to dribble away and that immediately turned into a promising counter attack for the opposition.. Luiz has been phenomenal for us since his return but overall in his career, he's not someone who people would label as a solid defender, part of the reason for that is because of his so called ball playing attribute.. 

 

When it comes to VVD, you sound like a football fan turned into sales promoter in the way you rave about this player, you sound pretty excited about this recruit and by no means I have any intention of being critical over that so don't get the wrong idea and be offended.. It's just that you still think it's a good buy despite his pricetag... 60mils should be off limit really for a defender, our defensive record is quite good and more than anything, it's actually been our strong point for quite a while..

I know you have addressed that it's not just about the defending but the complexity for a ball playing defender is like what I described about luiz.. It's too risky for the last outfield player to try anything than playing it safe.. There is a chance getting a ball playing defender could decrease our defensive solidity and adding 60mils into contention, it's too big of a risk.. 

didierforever likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, bola said:

Ok, just 1 more time and after that I'll probably stop as requested.. this time I'll cut to the chase..  Since you mentioned luiz, let's talk about him.. Luiz could make that hollywood pass but he missed by quite a lot which immediately turn to lost of possession.. He could dribble away past his marker but being last defender, it's risky, for example his ball was stolen in the spurs game when he tried to dribble away and that immediately turned into a promising counter attack for the opposition.. Luiz has been phenomenal for us since his return but overall in his career, he's not someone who people would label as a solid defender, part of the reason for that is because of his so called ball playing attribute.. 

 

When it comes to VVD, you sound like a football fan turned into sales promoter in the way you rave about this player, you sound pretty excited about this recruit and by no means I have any intention of being critical over that so don't get the wrong idea and be offended.. It's just that you still think it's a good buy despite his pricetag... 60mils should be off limit really for a defender, our defensive record is quite good and more than anything, it's actually been our strong point for quite a while..

I know you have addressed that it's not just about the defending but the complexity for a ball playing defender is like what I described about luiz.. It's too risky for the last outfield player to try anything than playing it safe.. There is a chance getting a ball playing defender could decrease our defensive solidity and adding 60mils into contention, it's too big of a risk.. 

Mate we aren't talking about how he may or may not lose the ball sometimes, Kante loses the ball quite a bit too, it happens they are in tight spaces where the forwards are pressing them hence the more composed they are the more comfortable they are with the ball the easier it is to stop the opponents getting on top of you, matic and Kante are good at turning over play, breaking up attacks but they got bossed by Tottenham, if in the mould of the defenders I'm describing you have a ball player it takes pressure off the team, it's very important if we are going to play in this new way, people say Tottenham was one game, well they bossed us last game too we just had a great second half and took out chances, with city we did the same we could have got blown away if KDB took that chance that he would score 9 out of 10 times, when teams pressure us we are vulnerable, only luiz and Dave are top class defenders the other 3 are decent but not good enough at this level, we can consistently beat smaller teams but the big teams will hassle us till we sort this which was the opposite of mou's Chelsea, conte is far better at getting a good consistent football philosophy and keeping the dressing room happy, making the players play for each other but tactically he is a bit behind Mou so we need the right players who can help us not only be consistent but manage big games better, GC, Moses and Alonso have been flattered by this system, but this is the best they will get we also need a quality CM, Kante and matic were bossed all game  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2017 at 16:29, DonAntonio said:

It's not about making superstar passes every time it's about being quick with the ball at your feet, making space, changing direction,  going past a player if you have to, picking out the pass quick, composure, those are the qualities of a ball playing defender, it's very relevant when the high press is on, this is an extreme example but for illustration purposes:  if hazard was back defending when we are under pressure would he get out? Yes, because you can't take the ball off him, he shields it well, changes direction, picks out a pass, not because he hit's 50 yard diagonals,  if you don't understand the concept ask don't be critical and sound silly. 

And to think Garry Cahill won the Champions league the year after he came from Bolton Wanderers....

Im not saying every player that comes from mid table teams is bad, but its very common to see a mid table team player get bought by a bigger club and they fail to reproduce the form that got them the club change in the first place

didierforever likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, DonAntonio said:

Mate we aren't talking about how he may or may not lose the ball sometimes, Kante loses the ball quite a bit too, it happens they are in tight spaces where the forwards are pressing them hence the more composed they are the more comfortable they are with the ball the easier it is to stop the opponents getting on top of you, matic and Kante are good at turning over play, breaking up attacks but they got bossed by Tottenham, if in the mould of the defenders I'm describing you have a ball player it takes pressure off the team, it's very important if we are going to play in this new way, people say Tottenham was one game, well they bossed us last game too we just had a great second half and took out chances, with city we did the same we could have got blown away if KDB took that chance that he would score 9 out of 10 times, when teams pressure us we are vulnerable, only luiz and Dave are top class defenders the other 3 are decent but not good enough at this level, we can consistently beat smaller teams but the big teams will hassle us till we sort this which was the opposite of mou's Chelsea, conte is far better at getting a good consistent football philosophy and keeping the dressing room happy, making the players play for each other but tactically he is a bit behind Mou so we need the right players who can help us not only be consistent but manage big games better, GC, Moses and Alonso have been flattered by this system, but this is the best they will get we also need a quality CM, Kante and matic were bossed all game  

But the prospect of a ball playing defender to overplay is genuine though.. remember how costa scored the goal in the west brom game?  There were also other examples like john stones for city..

When the player have ball playing attributes, they tend to be keen on trying to execute them and for a ball playing defender, I don't think the success rate is as high as you believe.. lets face it, if their ball playing attribute is so good, they wouldn't be a defender in the 1st place, don't you think?  I just think for the last outfield player to try anything other than playing it safe is a bit too risky..

 

Obviously there are pros and cons but i think you underestimate the cons...  If it's the striker, midfielder, fullback/wingback, I agree and I actually demand them to be having good ball playing attributes.. I think the risk is still manageable since they are not the last man.. 

 

Oh regarding jose mourinho being better tactically than conte, what made you think so? what has jose done this season to suggest he's a better tactician? 

My own view about jose is that his signature move (against decent side) is actually very passive, in his 4-2-1-3 formation, he's practically making the wide attacking players as second additional fullbacks, 2 sitting defensive midfielder and 1 mobile 'defensive midfielder' and the main idea of his gameplan is to sit back and only attack through counter which doesn't involve too much genius for this kind of offence.. He will only let his team play against minnows but his signature move is more often than not is like the 1 I described..

Speaking of his subs, not sure if moves like bringing roberth huth as striker in a hoof ball gameplan would be considered as tactical genius, I also remember he put torres, eto'o and ba all 3 on together but still playing the same formation.. whatever he did with his subs, he rarely changed his default formation..

didierforever likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, bola said:

 

 

Oh regarding jose mourinho being better tactically than conte, what made you think so? what has jose done this season to suggest he's a better tactician? 

 

well lets see, winning the CL with Porto, which will never happen again in History, winning it with Inter, winning league titles in 4 countries,  Big game management, look at his track record against Top 6 teams, and the signature move of being passive is complete bollox, I suggest you watch replays of his real team, a better manager than conte, i wouldnt say that for reasons including his man managment etc but tactically he is, that's more fact than opinion, everyone has their strengths but judging by my name you would say I'm quite pleased to have conte, he is good tactically but Mou has teh edge in that department, alos there are no cons to a ball playing Cb it's like saying a fast player has his cons, well no, being fast and useless has it's cons but thats at the loss of other attributes, if you have those other attributes its always a pro, a good defender who can play with teh ball at his feet it always a pro. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JJP said:

Im not saying every player that comes from mid table teams is bad, but its very common to see a mid table team player get bought by a bigger club and they fail to reproduce the form that got them the club change in the first place

And it's just as common to see them excel, the club you come from is less of a factor than the club you go to and how you fit in the system and with the managers style of play. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DonAntonio said:

well lets see, winning the CL with Porto, which will never happen again in History, winning it with Inter, winning league titles in 4 countries,  Big game management, look at his track record against Top 6 teams, and the signature move of being passive is complete bollox, I suggest you watch replays of his real team, a better manager than conte, i wouldnt say that for reasons including his man managment etc but tactically he is, that's more fact than opinion, everyone has their strengths but judging by my name you would say I'm quite pleased to have conte, he is good tactically but Mou has teh edge in that department, alos there are no cons to a ball playing Cb it's like saying a fast player has his cons, well no, being fast and useless has it's cons but thats at the loss of other attributes, if you have those other attributes its always a pro, a good defender who can play with teh ball at his feet it always a pro. 

 

Ok so it's the summary of achievements is where you're coming from.. well, jose has certainly won more, that can not be denied.. I take it if that's the barometer then conte has alot to catch up before anyone has a chance to argue.. Whether jose's so called signature move is passive or not, he almost always play passive whenever up against top side.. maybe not enough to be called his signatured move for you but the existence of that very move is a fact rather than just opinion.. is that move bad or good?  It's opinion...

I think that's it for the side dish, I'm not that interested into who's better actually, I just wanted to know where you're coming from and you've delivered and that should be all..

 

Back to the main dish, my english is not very good, I don't know in what other way that I can get across the cons of a ball playing defender to the team in general, I've said enough in my previous posts and you still seemed very firm and fixed on your view so I think this 1 is over too..  sorry for dragging it for 2 posts longer than initially decided as you requested mate.. 

 

 

 

 

didierforever likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, bola said:

 

Ok so it's the summary of achievements is where you're coming from.. well, jose has certainly won more, that can not be denied.. I take it if that's the barometer then conte has alot to catch up before anyone has a chance to argue.. Whether jose's so called signature move is passive or not, he almost always play passive whenever up against top side.. maybe not enough to be called his signatured move for you but the existence of that very move is a fact rather than just opinion.. is that move bad or good?  It's opinion...

I think that's it for the side dish, I'm not that interested into who's better actually, I just wanted to know where you're coming from and you've delivered and that should be all..

 

Back to the main dish, my english is not very good, I don't know in what other way that I can get across the cons of a ball playing defender to the team in general, I've said enough in my previous posts and you still seemed very firm and fixed on your view so I think this 1 is over too..  sorry for dragging it for 2 posts longer than initially decided as you requested mate.. 

 

 

 

 

You're english is fine mate, to sum up managers I think Jose is more about game management and conte is about general football philosophy he is tactical also but again I give mou the edge, then again look how well conte did with Italy and competition football usually tells a lot about a managers tactics, don't get me wrong I'm very happy with conte overall I prefer him, and I was a big Mou man, I wouldn't swap them now no chance, I'm very interested to see how conte does in the CL if you look at joses first team they were better than our current team on the pitch, they demolished Barca and Bayern and I'd argue we have more tallent now but that team was much much better overall, I think once conte gets some players in the summer and starts the CL we will get a far better idea of his capabilities and like everyone I think he is up fir the challenge, remember he is quite a young manager his tactics will develop maybe he will surpass Mou in that way but again to finalise I think he has been fantastic who wouldn't but I think he approaches big games like he does any other because he believes in is philosophy but I'd like to see a little more big game tactics, also remember he has moulded played to his philosophy rather than getting the players in he wanted, I can only imagine how good we will be if he gets the players in he wants 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would love to VVD personally...could be what Ivanovic used to be for us before father time caught up with him

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree donantonio. I think Cahill is quite good with the ball. If there are any issues it's a slight lack of pace and occasionally poor positioning/decision making.

Overall very happy with our back three. Only Alonso is just a touch below standard, maybe matic. Kante has been a bit pressured in recent games. I think a break would do them some good.

STATS, Jezz and didierforever like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it depends on what you would refer to as "good on the ball". Next to Zouma, Cahill looks excellent. He can receive and pass it off just fine, he will never be able to ping it 40 yards on the money like Luiz, but very few can. I also think its a bit unreasonable to expect all your defenders to take it past the first line of pressure. Again, very few can actually do that. What does become a problem is when we face sides that play with a high pressure ( pretty much all the top teams) Cahill just cant cope with it in terms of passing. He has to receive the ball, look up and then decide, something teams like Spurs, City, Liverpool wont allow you. So if he doesnt lose the ball its eiher back to Courtois or a long clearence. This really hurts our build up and is a large part of why we keep invitibg so much pressure on ourselves. This was even more clear last year when he didnt have Luiz as a safety valve.

 

Will be interesting to see if Aké can force himself into the side as his passing is already at a much higher level. Same with Andreas that hopefully comes back next year

Bobbywoodhogan and DonAntonio like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/01/2017 at 00:36, ozboy said:

I don't agree donantonio. I think Cahill is quite good with the ball. If there are any issues it's a slight lack of pace and occasionally poor positioning/decision making.

Overall very happy with our back three. Only Alonso is just a touch below standard, maybe matic. Kante has been a bit pressured in recent games. I think a break would do them some good.

Not true mate he is terrible under pressure someone commented on that in the Peterborough game, he gets the hall taken off him regularly under press, he can pass ok but that's not what's meant by ball at feel ability 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Southampton probably dont want to part with him and rightly so...he'd be the missing piece in our defensive game imo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DrogbaIsKing said:

Southampton probably dont want to part with him and rightly so...he'd be the missing piece in our defensive game imo

People don't get that so few people understand what a ball playing CB is and how they help the way we play tremendously, even if we tabled 50mil we wouldn't get him in this window and people are like nah dont need him we have ake 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was watching Southampton Spurs a few weeks ago and my sister who knows and cares f**k all about football pointed out that Van Djik was hot...so there's that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Van Dijk is really good and would def be an upgrade,but if we go for a CB now or next summer I'd rather we go after Koulibaly.

Now this guy could be the ultimate end game. Think Napoli will sell this summer but I have a feeling RM would be interested too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.