January Window 17/18

[TomCFC85]

3 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Antonio Conte worries squad not big enough to compete as Chelsea handed nightmare run

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/12/11/antonio-conte-worries-squad-not-big-enough-compete-chelsea-handed/

 

I'm 90% certain Conte will leave at the end of the season.
 

[Zeta]

14 minutes ago, TomCFC85 said:

I'm 90% certain Conte will leave at the end of the season.
 

Probably. It's a shame, but we don't know if there's unrest because the board didn't back him fully, or the board didn't back him fully because there was already unrest. But at this point, with all that's been said, and no contract extension signed, it's hard to believe he really wants to stay for long.

[IliyaKrostin]

If we were working with our youth and playing with them, then I could understand that the board don't want to look for new players, but when we don't look for players and selling or loaning our youth, then it's really shaming.

[Ukraine Bolt]

Alex Sandro and Lemar rumours picking up a lot recently. Putting money we don't get either of them and they both end up at a rival?

[enigma]

who's this arthur melo, young brazilian centre mid? talented apparently and on our radar, but also being tracked by barcelona - and he's a barca fan. 

lemar would be great. i thought he looked one of the best of monaco's players and he's left footed so ideal for the right wing and cutting in. not sure he's as important as a lwb though. lwb is our weakest position. 

[big blue]

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Alex Sandro and Lemar rumours picking up a lot recently. Putting money we don't get either of them and they both end up at a rival?

Can't see Sandro moving until the summer, Lemar will cost at least £75m considering arsenal bid £90m for him on deadline day, which I doubt we would be willing to pay.

We seem reluctant to spend the really massive sums that are becoming the norm. 

Lemar is a good player, but unless he would be at lwb, his best position is where hazard plays in 343, as he has a deadly delivery from the left. 

There's some good left footed attackers in France, lemar, fekir, and malcom. 

[Ernie_blue]

I would like either Bertrand or Shaw at Chelsea. Both young and I would like to see a few more English players in the squad.

[didierforever]

15 hours ago, TomCFC85 said:

Because the German Ross Barkley isn't a natural winger...

Has played 90% of his professional career as a winger. Currently playing in a poor league for the best which is light years ahead of even the 2nd best team in the league (which just got ripped apart in the summer transfer window). All in all, hardly a great CV for the CM position. On the other hand, we have someone called RLC.

[didierforever]

19 hours ago, ducavis said:

He is a bit of an enigma. You sense there is something there but he hasn’t been able to nail down one role. He is currently playing the Fabregas role behind Cavani/Mbappe/Neymar, and he has been brilliant with 80%+ successful passes. Hate to say this but would take the gamble at around the £30m mark.

I would say thats 30mil wasted. Rather save it and buy a world class player and give that slot to RLC, who is actually a CM and knows the league inside out.

[didierforever]

5 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

I would like either Bertrand or Shaw at Chelsea. Both young and I would like to see a few more English players in the squad.

+1.

Shaw has 6 months left on his contract, right? 

5-10mil should do it.

[ducavis]

1 hour ago, didierforever said:

I would say thats 30mil wasted. Rather save it and buy a world class player and give that slot to RLC, who is actually a CM and knows the league inside out.

I get what you are saying, but in this current market I would say the ballpark figure for a world class player is about £90m+. Can the club afford to spend that money on 1 player going forward?

 

[yorkleyblue]

9 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

I would like either Bertrand or Shaw at Chelsea. Both young and I would like to see a few more English players in the squad.

So, Bertrand who proved he was not good enough for a guaranteed first team place, and has gone on to continue proving it, or Shaw who can't even get a place in the United team that relies on the 83-year old high-board diver Ashley Young?  Shaw has managed  just 45 minutes against Burton Albion in the League Cup, didn't greatly impress then, and is injured so often he makes Darren Anderton look like Geoff Capes.

Good to see our "expectations" are be lowered somewhat.

[didierforever]

2 hours ago, ducavis said:

I get what you are saying, but in this current market I would say the ballpark figure for a world class player is about £90m+. Can the club afford to spend that money on 1 player going forward?

 

Depends on the rest of our buys. 

We do spend, no doubt about it. 

What matters is how much we can avoid transfers like salah, cuadrado, etc etc, which might end up giving us a minimal profit (hardly that if you count the salaries).

With the amounts of money on world class players these days, its almost essential that we get a couple of youth players (Andreas, RLC, Aina, Tammy) through to the first team rather than spend 30mil to buy average players of same/similar calibre.

[Ukraine Bolt]

49 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

So, Bertrand who proved he was not good enough for a guaranteed first team place, and has gone on to continue proving it, or Shaw who can't even get a place in the United team that relies on the 83-year old high-board diver Ashley Young?  Shaw has managed  just 45 minutes against Burton Albion in the League Cup, didn't greatly impress then, and is injured so often he makes Darren Anderton look like Geoff Capes.

Good to see our "expectations" are be lowered somewhat.

There is a common denominator here though. Both of these players were deemed 'not good enough' by Mourinho during his fall from grace of the managerial elite. (also deemed Salah, KDB, Lukaku etc.)

 

Although i don't believe Bertrand would be a wise signing, since leaving us he has gone on to become a steady feature in the England setup and has been in the premier league team of the year. He'll be 29 before next season and will still have 3-4 years left on his contract so wouldn't make sense financially but he's a cracking player. 

Shaw on the other hand has received the KdB treatment from Mourinho and will never get a look in regardless of what he does. Under LvG Shaw was one of the best LB's in the league before his horrible leg break. With time on the pitch and with the right coach there is no reason he can't get back to that form at the age of 22. 

 

Antonio managed to turn Moses and Alonso into world class players last year so there is no reason he couldn't do the same with these two. 

 

I'm sure you'll just pick one line from this and reply with 'revisionist bullsh*t' like usual though. 

[yorkleyblue]

Actually, no, for once you talk a bit of sense.  

Bertrand has found his level, a nice enough lad, but not top level.  If he was, at his age he'd be displaying that at a top team.  Not really a "cracking player" though.

I don't think there was a KdB treatment, the lad just wasn't up to it at the time.  I'm not sure about the "one of the best LBs in the league" bit, but he was definitely one with potential. Sometimes the ones with potential don't realise it, and sometimes the one who looks like pub-team dross turn out to be better than expected.  Shaw and Kdb in a nutshell.

We have to stop lionising previous players who have moved on, regardless of the circumstances and no matter how obviously someone can be identified by the blame-storming culture we seem to have in here.

And we have to stop demonising previous managers because of a personal dislike.  Neither you nor I know anything about why Mourinho made whatever decisions he did, or even if he was in a position to make those decisions.  I happen to think he was right about both Bertrand and Kdb, the first because he deserved regular first team football at a lower level than Chelsea, the second because he was dross while he was with us, would have made me look like Ronaldinho.

[Ernie_blue]

3 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

So, Bertrand who proved he was not good enough for a guaranteed first team place, and has gone on to continue proving it, or Shaw who can't even get a place in the United team that relies on the 83-year old high-board diver Ashley Young?  Shaw has managed  just 45 minutes against Burton Albion in the League Cup, didn't greatly impress then, and is injured so often he makes Darren Anderton look like Geoff Capes.

Good to see our "expectations" are be lowered somewhat.

Bertrand has gone on to be a very good player, was he ever given a chance at Chelsea? So how can say he was not good enough.

When Mourinho doesn’t like you then you have no chance which is proven with Luis, Cuadrado, Salah, KDB, Lukaku. All have gone on to be better players.

The same can be said of Shaw, you really think Young is a better LB lol

[Zeta]

I'd take Shaw, if he can prove his fitness.

I hope we stay miles away from Barkley, but I have a bad feeling we're going to go back in for him.

[Ernie_blue]

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

There is a common denominator here though. Both of these players were deemed 'not good enough' by Mourinho during his fall from grace of the managerial elite. (also deemed Salah, KDB, Lukaku etc.)

 

Although i don't believe Bertrand would be a wise signing, since leaving us he has gone on to become a steady feature in the England setup and has been in the premier league team of the year. He'll be 29 before next season and will still have 3-4 years left on his contract so wouldn't make sense financially but he's a cracking player. 

Shaw on the other hand has received the KdB treatment from Mourinho and will never get a look in regardless of what he does. Under LvG Shaw was one of the best LB's in the league before his horrible leg break. With time on the pitch and with the right coach there is no reason he can't get back to that form at the age of 22. 

 

Antonio managed to turn Moses and Alonso into world class players last year so there is no reason he couldn't do the same with these two. 

 

I'm sure you'll just pick one line from this and reply with 'revisionist bullsh*t' like usual though. 

I never realised Bertrand’s age, thought he was younger for some reason. I’ve changed my mind on him but still think his a good player. I’m a fan of Shaw though and IMO under the right manager would be a top player.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ernie_blue

[yorkleyblue]

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

Bertrand has gone on to be a very good player, was he ever given a chance at Chelsea? So how can say he was not good enough.

When Mourinho doesn’t like you then you have no chance which is proven with Luis, Cuadrado, Salah, KDB, Lukaku. All have gone on to be better players.

The same can be said of Shaw, you really think Young is a better LB lol

Bertrand was given loads of chances with us - like I said, he's a decent enough player who has found his level.  Sadly, that level isn't what we should be aspiring to.

As for Mourinho's opinions, that isn't "proven", it's your opinion.  Luis is not a better player than he was with us, he has always been a quality back, Cuadrado was pants, referred to in here several times as "bambi on ice".  Would you REALLY want him in the team today? Salah is having a purple patch at the moment, in a team formation that suits his speed.  It's too early to say if he is going to be a world-class player or not.  As I have said many,many times before, KdB was dog-sh*te when he was with us, and was rightly let go.  He could have turned out to be the latest in a long line of Borinis, Kakutas or McCreachans.  You never can tell, and anyone who says they knew how he would turn out when he was with us is bull-sh*tting or delusional.  I didn't want us buying Lukaku and I wouldn't take him now.

I think Young is less injury-prone and performs for the team.  If he wasn't consistently performing better than Shaw in training, he wouldn't be playing instead of Shaw.  Not even Mourinho would be so stupid to play a worse player just to make a point.

[Ernie_blue]

35 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Bertrand was given loads of chances with us - like I said, he's a decent enough player who has found his level.  Sadly, that level isn't what we should be aspiring to.

As for Mourinho's opinions, that isn't "proven", it's your opinion.  Luis is not a better player than he was with us, he has always been a quality back, Cuadrado was pants, referred to in here several times as "bambi on ice".  Would you REALLY want him in the team today? Salah is having a purple patch at the moment, in a team formation that suits his speed.  It's too early to say if he is going to be a world-class player or not.  As I have said many,many times before, KdB was dog-sh*te when he was with us, and was rightly let go.  He could have turned out to be the latest in a long line of Borinis, Kakutas or McCreachans.  You never can tell, and anyone who says they knew how he would turn out when he was with us is bull-sh*tting or delusional.  I didn't want us buying Lukaku and I wouldn't take him now.

I think Young is less injury-prone and performs for the team.  If he wasn't consistently performing better than Shaw in training, he wouldn't be playing instead of Shaw.  Not even Mourinho would be so stupid to play a worse player just to make a point.

Mourinho loves Fellani which doesn’t say a lot, Young isn’t better than Shaw. It doesn’t always have to be about ability but also attitude. 

KDB was never given a fair chance at Chelsea, one game where he played well and then it was over. Salah, Luis, Cuadrado, Bertrand and the rest was never given a fair chance. Just like Batman with Conte, managers don’t like certain players. You can make all the excuses in the world but you need to be given a fair chance in this league with the backing of the manager.

Your talking sh*t about KDB, he was never ever given a fair chance and Mourinho made his mind up pretty early.

This isn’t a slag off against Mourinho because I have defended him massively but he did do somethings wrong and not giving certain players a fair chance is one, the reason being he is a short term manager looking for short term success.

[big blue]

Kdb was a 20/21 at the time, he had just been named young player of the year in Germany, so it was abundantly clear he had great potential. 9 appearances mostly off the bench for young player in a new league is nowhere near enough time to come the conclusion he wasn't good enough. 

Plenty of players have struggled initially in the premier league, bakayoko should be shown the door as soon as possible if we are judging players based on their first 10 games.

If kdb came through our academy he would've been given infinitely more slack.

We don't know what goes on in training, but you would expect mourinho a world class manager to see that kdb had talent and potential. If he wasn't in the managers plans then fine, send him out loan, or if you are going to sell him, put a buy back clause in. 

 

 

[Snedger]

I can't argue about Salah or Lukaku as I was not at all disappointed to see either leave (well a bit disappointed about Lukaku, but that was more that I had hoped he could make the grade, but ultimately didn't think he ever would). In the case of KdB, I admit that he didn't rip up any trees in his very short stint at the Bridge, but I truly believed he had ability and potential as I'd seen him on the box playing in Germany and for Belgium and it was pretty clear he could play. Obviously I don't know what exactly went wrong at Chelsea, but I find it hard to accept that Mourinho as (was?) a great football manager and especially a manager who puts a lot of store in his ability as a psychologist, could not have worked with DeBruyne and given himself another 12 months to mould the player as he has done with others. I always get the impression that Mourinho gave up way too quickly. And it definitely can't be argued now that DeBruyne isn't a very good player who used correctly can make a significant contribution at a top level side.

Bertrand was given a chance and he did enough to warrant being kept on longer. The difficulty at Chelsea just seems to be that for pretty much any player, potential and ability aren't enough - they need to be at it right now in the eyes of the present coach.

[yorkleyblue]

25 minutes ago, Snedger said:

.................................a lot of sensible stuff, some of which I actually agree with (except KdB, obviously!) ...and then..........................................

, potential and ability aren't enough - they need to be at it right now in the eyes of the present coach AND the short-termist fanbase who pile on dog's abuse whenever we aren't 5 up within 20 minutes and who appear to loathe and detest whichever player is this week's scapegoat, who want win, win, win, but also want some pre-pubescent starlet to get more game time than seasoned internationals, just because.

 

[Ernie_blue]

36 minutes ago, Snedger said:

I can't argue about Salah or Lukaku as I was not at all disappointed to see either leave (well a bit disappointed about Lukaku, but that was more that I had hoped he could make the grade, but ultimately didn't think he ever would). In the case of KdB, I admit that he didn't rip up any trees in his very short stint at the Bridge, but I truly believed he had ability and potential as I'd seen him on the box playing in Germany and for Belgium and it was pretty clear he could play. Obviously I don't know what exactly went wrong at Chelsea, but I find it hard to accept that Mourinho as (was?) a great football manager and especially a manager who puts a lot of store in his ability as a psychologist, could not have worked with DeBruyne and given himself another 12 months to mould the player as he has done with others. I always get the impression that Mourinho gave up way too quickly. And it definitely can't be argued now that DeBruyne isn't a very good player who used correctly can make a significant contribution at a top level side.

Bertrand was given a chance and he did enough to warrant being kept on longer. The difficulty at Chelsea just seems to be that for pretty much any player, potential and ability aren't enough - they need to be at it right now in the eyes of the present coach.

Thats how Chelsea as a club is run. When a manager joins he knows his stint is a short term stay so success needs to be immediate. 

[Snedger]

23 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

.................................a lot of sensible stuff, some of which I actually agree with (except KdB, obviously!) ...and then..........................................

, potential and ability aren't enough - they need to be at it right now in the eyes of the present coach AND the short-termist fanbase who pile on dog's abuse whenever we aren't 5 up within 20 minutes and who appear to loathe and detest whichever player is this week's scapegoat, who want win, win, win, but also want some pre-pubescent starlet to get more game time than seasoned internationals, just because.

I'm a bit confused as I didn't say anything that can be interpreted as what you typed after 'AND'.

However, I stand by what I said (kind of as you changed quite a bit of it). I believe that the ambitions of the club in recent years and in turn pressure on a whole line of coaches has meant that young talented players haven't been afforded much opportunity. I'm definitely not one who thinks that these inexperienced players should just be in the team on mass as that would surely be carnage. I just don't think we're that good at smoothly introducing them little and often in order to get a better and real sense of their first team potential. Obviously Christensen is proving something of an exception to that, but many others have little more to show than 4 minutes of a game where we're already 3 goals up and the game is in effect finished or an early round cup game against lower level opposition where the starting 11 is so unconventional that it is closer a pre-season friendly (and often even the opposition filed a second string these days).

Anyway, as regards the thread subject of the transfer window. Winter windows rarely change a lot as most players capable of making a significant change are either happy where they are, ludicrously priced or cup tied (or all three). Despite Conte's complaints, I think we're plenty good enough to finish in the top four and I don't think any amount of signings of even the finest players is going to stop City wining the title this season now. It's really all down to getting it right on the night in cup matches now as far as wining a tin pot is concerned.

11 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Thats how Chelsea as a club is run. When a manager joins he knows his stint is a short term stay so success needs to be immediate. 

I think as Christensen is proving though, if you're good enough, and the manager can see it, then one or even two young players can be integrated in a season without threatening success. I'm sure it's easier to make a final call on a player if they've had some first team experience at Chelsea rather than a season at Crystal Palace. How to successfully bring in youth players at Chelsea is certainly one of the great mysteries of the modern game.