57 replies to this topic

[Lofty]

I'm not saying he is. I'm saying does it matter all that much if there's a difference between who's perceived to be running things and who's really running things? As a spokesman, Grant does very well as a contrast to Jose, or even Clarkey, and may well be seen by RA as a  calming influence in the wake of the potential uproar following Jose's departure.

Then there's Ten Cate, who I can't ever remember ever being interviewed. I'm not saying he hasn't given any interviews, but if he has, I've managed to miss them. Back to Grant. It would be stretching credibility to the limit to state that his experience with Israel's national team followed by whatever job he had at Portsmouth has given him the experience and ability needed to manage any Premier League club, let alone step into the footsteps of Jose Mourinho.

If Roman Abramovich wants the world to believe that Avram Grant is Chelsea's manager in more than name only, then that's fine. If it works, don't knock it.

[Blue Sun Tzu]

"mez":jp5b9ec9 said:

...you still can't claim that the man who sits and watches Chelsea play
football is anything other than a spectator.   He's not a great manager.

Mezandand

To suggest that AV is a mere spectator is overtly harsh.  As I mentioned in an earlier post and reiterated by Lofty, AV's role is more akin to an old-fashioned manager rather than coach.  The footballing side is dealt in the main by Stevie and Ten.  It rather like the relationship between a General and a Field Marshall during a war or a Producer and a Director when making a movie.  

For example, I would suggest that Man U's success on the footballing side these days is down in the main to coach Carlos Queiroz as it was Archie Knox, Brian Kidd and Steve MacLaren before him (when Carlos left to manage Real Madrid, Man U found themselves 15 points behind Arsenal in the Premiership).  That is not to suggest that Fergie is anything but a great manager.

Of course I am not suggesting that AV is of Fergie's stature but, at the end of the day, a manager can only be judged by results and under him ours have been pretty impressive.

[loz]

I'm more curious to know how you are so well informed about the specifics of who does what behind the scenes mez.  It appears you have some pretty good insider information that, so far nobody else has managed to get (well other than the tabloids but they had a bit of a habit of trusting fiction over fact), care to share some more juicy inside info with us, in particular how you  know he doesn't do any trainig when our training sessions are very much behind closed doors now.

[g3.7]

"loz":3anbme2z said:

I'm more curious to know how you are so well informed about the specifics of who does what behind the scenes mez.  It appears you have some pretty good insider information that, so far nobody else has managed to get (well other than the tabloids but they had a bit of a habit of trusting fiction over fact), care to share some more juicy inside info with us, in particular how you  know he doesn't do any trainig when our training sessions are very much behind closed doors now.

can I ask, how do you manage to not get so completely exasperated and not go into wind up mode? it's so, so tiring even reading these types of posts year on year, let alone being bothered to string together a relevant response...

don't the errors and contradictions make you feel like there is some internal bleeding in your brain?

the most patient man in all scotland, people.

[ethicalstrategy]

"loz":1gsj0v18 said:

I'm more curious to know how you are so well informed about the specifics of who does what behind the scenes mez.  It appears you have some pretty good insider information that, so far nobody else has managed to get (well other than the tabloids but they had a bit of a habit of trusting fiction over fact), care to share some more juicy inside info with us, in particular how you  know he doesn't do any trainig when our training sessions are very much behind closed doors now.

The basic format of how the new structure is working has been pretty well documented, not just in the tabloid press but also the broadsheets.  I don't think there is a serious dispute that it isn't correct.

Lofty's point is the more relevant, in as much as it really doesn't matter as long as it's working - which you'd have to concede that it is as far as results go - and for me that's the most important thing.

[Qaz]

"gullit4":2z1v5fw6 said:

"loz":2z1v5fw6 said:

I'm more curious to know how you are so well informed about the specifics of who does what behind the scenes mez.  It appears you have some pretty good insider information that, so far nobody else has managed to get (well other than the tabloids but they had a bit of a habit of trusting fiction over fact), care to share some more juicy inside info with us, in particular how you  know he doesn't do any trainig when our training sessions are very much behind closed doors now.

can I ask, how do you manage to not get so completely exasperated and not go into wind up mode? it's so, so tiring even reading these types of posts year on year, let alone being bothered to string together a relevant response...

don't the errors and contradictions make you feel like there is some internal bleeding in your brain?

the most patient man in all scotland, people.

HAHAHA  {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif

Ur a funny one G4

[mez]

Quote

The basic format of how the new structure is working has been pretty well documented, not just in the tabloid press but also the broadsheets. I don't think there is a serious dispute that it isn't correct.

Lofty's point is the more relevant, in as much as it really doesn't matter as long as it's working - which you'd have to concede that it is as far as results go - and for me that's the most important thing.

Yes it is working ... and perhaps a front man who doesn't make any decisions is what was needed as there may be too many influential / powerful people behind the scenes and you need someone like Grant who just spectates for balance.

Even so, I still can't convince myself he's anything other than this.

Mez

[callista]

"loz":2tlfmjxu said:

I'm more curious to know how you are so well informed about the specifics of who does what behind the scenes mez.  It appears you have some pretty good insider information that, so far nobody else has managed to get (well other than the tabloids but they had a bit of a habit of trusting fiction over fact), care to share some more juicy inside info with us, in particular how you  know he doesn't do any trainig when our training sessions are very much behind closed doors now.

I understand why you've challenged Mez about his rather harsh critique of my boyfriend's contribution to the Chelsea cause but in fact there have been a number of serious articles in the papers over the last few months and contributions from players such as Lampard, Terry et al that confirm what Grant does (or should that be does not) actually do in terms of training etc.

Lofty:

Quote

Back to Grant. It would be stretching credibility to the limit to state that his experience with Israel's national team followed by whatever job he had at Portsmouth has given him the experience and ability needed to manage any Premier League club, let alone step into the footsteps of Jose Mourinho.

If Roman Abramovich wants the world to believe that Avram Grant is Chelsea's manager in more than name only, then that's fine. If it works, don't knock it.

Mez

Quote

Yes it is working ... and perhaps a front man who doesn't make any decisions is what was needed as there may be too many influential / powerful people behind the scenes and you need someone like Grant who just spectates for balance.

Even so, I still can't convince myself he's anything other than this.

I agree with your point here and also with Lofty, it strains credibility to me that given his past history he has got the stature to come in unaided and manage a team to further success (by that I mean silverware) on his own.  For that I think he has to rely on considerable help and Roman hired that by getting Ten Cate in and kept the continuity in keeping Clarke who surely must have learned something under Mourinho in three years.  However, if as Lofty said it works then don't knock it!

In the end it all boils down to how you see a manager of a club Mez?  Fergie has Queiroz as an assistant, I think he takes the training does that mean Fergie is a poor manager?  No of course not because his history of results, personality and control over his players mean that you believe him to be a great manager no matter what you may think of him personally.  Ditto Wenger really.    Mourinho was very hands on with just about everything, some said to control freak proportions, throw in his past success and strong personality and again you don't have problems believing he's the business and a capable manager.

Grant has no stellar history, little obvious charisma, got the job apparently by simply being behind the scenes ready when the axe dropped and what's worse you've discovered over time he doesn't appear to do any of the things that our previous coach did such as take training, give emoting team talks, appears to rely far more on his assistants for input etc etc.

But the bottom line is this totally different approach is working and although it may not fit in with your traditional view of what a manager should be at this moment in time it matters little because the results are coming in.  When the results possibly start to taper off then it suddenly becomes an issue.  In your own mind you might pin point them to belonging more to the input of the backroom team than Grant himself but I doubt Roman cares what anyone thinks about the semantics of who is really in charge unlike you and possibly many other fans.  

Grant for me is the front man he advertising hoarding if you like to Roman's ambitions, he's obviously not stupid, has seemingly made lots of friends with the right people and has experience in management albeit with no real stellar achievements to back much up.  The critical thing is Grant is willing and able to work with all the people now populating the Chelsea hierarchy and is happy to have a Ten Cate type on board giving him advice and probably supporting him quite a lot (I doubt Jose would have entertained the idea for a second), he will buy the players in that Roman wants discard the one he doesn't, keep his head down in the media and work towards Roman's aims - Mourinho was apparently not willing to do this.

I must admit I like to see the more hands on/traditonal type with a sparky no nonsense personality to match but Grant seems more reserved and happy to let others do the work I would usually like to think a manager has more input in training, team talks and so on as this gives me at least some kind of guide to his true worth. That is just my personal opinion though and in the end I guess there is no right or wrong way.  The manager of a big money producing department may be a Mourinho inspirational firebrand type, staff will do anything for the guy and he gets great results but there are often rows and blow outs or he may be a Grant type, quiet and reserved relying on very good underlings to bring home the bacon. He oversees, guides and placates in order to get the work done but he does that job very well - the results in terms of profitabililty are in fact the same as the firebrand.  So who is the better manager on that basis?

For me it would depend upon which manager you wanted to slave for, ironically in my job I'd fare better working for the Grant type than a Mourinho. {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif

[Blue Sun Tzu]

Great post Callista.  My sentiments exactly.  Onwards.

[Chippy]

True,
we all have different opinions of Grant, his nous, passion, input, ability, but most of us still get behind him in some way or another,

in my humble opinion that was Calista's best post i.e most positive (on this subject).


is it cos it's Valentines day soon {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif

[mez]

Calista, yes great post, very positive.   Thanks.
The only thing I disagree with is the comparison with Wenger and Fergie,
I don't think any Premiership side would take Grant, even on a free transfer!    Which I don't think is the case
with either of the other two (.... unfortunately!)
But as they say, he who pays the piper....
Mez

[callista]

"Chippy":3jmsutkq said:

True,
we all have different opinions of Grant, his nous, passion, input, ability, but most of us still get behind him in some way or another,

in my humble opinion that was Calista's best post i.e most positive (on this subject).


is it cos it's Valentines day soon {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif

We do all have different opinions about Grant and I think it would soon get pretty dull if we were all singing along on the same hymn sheet on the subject.  Right now I think that's impossible in any case but as long as we all support him but feel able to lob some reasonable criticism if required his way then I see no harm done.

As for the rest, yeah well thanks chippy, it makes a change from me I'm sure you'll agree and about my boyfriend too!

Well I have to admit it could be because Valentines Day is soon approaching and I'm sort of hoping Avram's going to splash out on something exciting as befits the man. {SMILIES_PATH}/300.gif

Last year it was Portsmouth's away shirt as a special treat and a box of Milk Tray, have a horrible feeling I know what's in store this year.

[Chippy]

"callista":3kcs6d7i said:

We do all have different opinions about Grant and I think it would soon get pretty dull if we were all singing along on the same hymn sheet on the subject.  Right now I think that's impossible in any case but as long as we all support him but feel able to lob some reasonable criticism if required his way then I see no harm done.

As for the rest, yeah well thanks chippy, it makes a change from me I'm sure you'll agree and about my boyfriend too!

Well I have to admit it could be because Valentines Day is soon approaching and I'm sort of hoping Avram's going to splash out on something exciting as befits the man. {SMILIES_PATH}/300.gif

Last year it was Portsmouth's away shirt as a special treat and a box of Milk Tray, have a horrible feeling I know what's in store this year.

well no excuses for a cheap football shirt and box of chocs, he's on better money this year (well deserved imo) maybe he'll stretch to
a proper gift like a Diamond bracelet or a Gucci watch?

if he lets you down though just put it down to Clarkie and Cate...you know they make all the decisions {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif

might be lucky though, he might just give you a lap dance {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif

[BLUENUT]

We got the best manager in the world at the time, used him to put us on the map with his sucess. Brought in a mossad agent to worked behind the scene's along with his KGB counter parts. They stole the special one's management methods and now gloss them over as their own acheivements.

It's all a conspiracy I tell ya {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif





posted with tongue in cheek BTW

[callista]

"Chippy":1ksvz6b0 said:

might be lucky though, he might just give you a lap dance {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif

Thank you for that image. {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif

Think I'll stick with the Milk Tray actually!

[Lofty]

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[glory55]

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[callista]

Aaaah that brings back some memories..thank you so much.  {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif  {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif

The scary thing is I can actually picture Avram doing the whole Milk Tray thing and that's even more disturbing that the lap dancing suggestion.

Oh Avram your secrets out!  You don't really want to be a top coach at Chelsea all you want to be the Milk Tray man!

I guess he gives the game away with his black garb he wears all the time.  {SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif