yogic Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 I know Ballack has just arrived this season .. and perhaps needs time to settle. BUT Essien had also just arrived last season .. and was IMMENSE from the start. Position aparat .. contribution to the team. - a poll by yogic .. priceles.
Guest Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 Ignoring wages...... Ballack is the greater value
Star Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 There was me thinking these forums were lacking a sense of humour! Let's start a new one .... Jokanovic or Lampard !!
loz Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 Essien had also just arrived last season .. and was IMMENSE from the start. No he wasn't. Essien had a couple of games in his first season where I would say he took the game by the scruff of the neck but to say he was IMMENSE is, in my opinion, well wide of the mark. Comparing Essien and Ballack at the moment would be like comparing Drogba after 10 weeks of his first season with Guddy when he was on fire alongside Jimmy. And your take on that is Star?
Star Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 Essien had also just arrived last season .. and was IMMENSE from the start. No he wasn't. Essien had a couple of games in his first season where I would say he took the game by the scruff of the neck but to say he was IMMENSE is, in my opinion, well wide of the mark. Comparing Essien and Ballack at the moment would be like comparing Drogba after 10 weeks of his first season with Guddy when he was on fire alongside Jimmy. And your take on that is Star? My take is simple dear Loz, When we signed Essien I posted on these forums that it was a blessing in disquise that he arrived on the back of Gerrard spurning us again. As my mate in France - who is a great deal more knowledgeable about football than any man or beast i've ever known - gave me the confidence to say after his 'brilliant' cameo appearance on his debut against Arsenal that here we had a player 'better than Gerrard in the long run' The pure and simple thing is can Ballack improve ? Are his best days behind him ?? Can he adjust to the Premiership and excel as he did in the German League ??? Is he good enough for our starting eleven ???? Can he take the game by the scruff of the neck in Lampards absence ????? I have doubts on all counts, in fact now you ask, he reminds me of Jokanovic Poll on Crespo and Shevchenko anyone ?
Chippy Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 Essien looked ordinary in some games when he first arrived but there was always the workrate to fall back on, now he is always in the top three performers every match. Ballack has been suprisingly ordinary at best and I thought he would come alive in CL games but even when Frank was out last night, Michael never stepped up. I am gutted as I always thought a couple of proven big names might be just what Chelsea needed to go up that final level to CL greatness. I am dreading Makas decline as he looked a little bit slower last night and we just cant replace him, lets hope he just was having a day off and saving himself for OT.
loz Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 Star None of that has any relevance to a quesiton which asks to compare Ballack after a handful of games to Essien after a full season to settle in (hence my poitnt about comparing Drogba after a few games to Guddy when Guddy was on fire) A handful of games in to his Chelsea career if I was asked the following questions about Drogba The pure and simple thing is can Drogba improve ? Are his best days behind him ?? Can he adjust to the Premiership and excel as he did in the French League ??? Is he good enough for our starting eleven ???? Can he control a football and hit the back of the net like Guddy in Guddy's absence ????? The answers would have been pretty obvious as well (No, Yes, No, No, No, in case you were wondering ). However if I had said that at the time (after so few games) I wager you would have thought I was judging him far too quickly... just like you are with Ballack. Ballack is one of many Chelsea players this season who I think have been below par. I am not for a second saying he has been great but I am still to understand why so much patience was shown to Drogba yet people like Ballack and Sheva are supposed to take our breath away from day one.
Nibs Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 If Ballack was still in his mid 20's I'd say give him time to come good, but a youngster he ain't. I'm not saying he is past it, but despite being signed on a free, he is still not good value due to his massive wages. Essien was signed with a view to the long term and although he has stuttered at times, he looks far and away a better player to have in the squad. No Contest.
Guest Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 we should sells lamps and drogba for Deco and ronaldinho! no but seriously, essien is esseientially better - as hes playing better.
g3.7 Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 I reckon ballack will be at his peak for the length of his contract- or most of it. I am convinced he is a player with plenty left. so, last season essien arrived- played a few great games and then his form dropped and he never totally recovered and there were some poor games. I think his season, overall, was average, but had shown enough for all to see he would be a great long term player. the concern was, and still is, that in a 433 essien and makelele would be far too defensive a system as far as our attacking was concerned- next to them is lampard, not riquelme. this season ballack has made a solid start and has contributed to some of our goals. essien has been, alongside drogba probably our best player. I think that he hasn't been quite as consistent as most people are making out, but is playing very well. he is more important than ballack currently as he is the player in form... but I feel ballack, once fully in sync with the side will give the added clever passing that I think this side lacks.
ethicalstrategy Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 I ticked the option for "What a stupid poll" Maybe we should use the Harry Hill solution: There's only one way to find out .... fight!!
barak81 Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 For those that say Essien had a poor to average first season its worth pointing out it all went down hill after he was made public enemy number one by the papers and was refferd to by 90 percent of the nation as nothing more than a nasty thug!! he's only 23 now, was 22 in a new country, thats not going to be the easiest thing in the world. He must have been thinking twice about ever challange he went in to. This has no bearing on Ballack except i satnd by the point that IMO out if we are playing 4 midfielders i dont believe he is in out top four options
Makelele Posted November 23, 2006 Posted November 23, 2006 not answering...don't like the question...
Star Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 StarNone of that has any relevance to a quesiton which asks to compare Ballack after a handful of games to Essien after a full season to settle in (hence my poitnt about comparing Drogba after a few games to Guddy when Guddy was on fire) A handful of games in to his Chelsea career if I was asked the following questions about Drogba The pure and simple thing is can Drogba improve ? Are his best days behind him ?? Can he adjust to the Premiership and excel as he did in the French League ??? Is he good enough for our starting eleven ???? Can he control a football and hit the back of the net like Guddy in Guddy's absence ????? The answers would have been pretty obvious as well (No, Yes, No, No, No, in case you were wondering ). However if I had said that at the time (after so few games) I wager you would have thought I was judging him far too quickly... just like you are with Ballack. Ballack is one of many Chelsea players this season who I think have been below par. I am not for a second saying he has been great but I am still to understand why so much patience was shown to Drogba yet people like Ballack and Sheva are supposed to take our breath away from day one. Because unlike other signings in Jose's reign and in Drogba/Essien we have prime examples - Ballack and Shevchenko were considered World Class and possibly THE best in their respective positions. It's a case of me repeating myself time and time again BUT I have always had Shevchenko in my starting 11 - unless we switch to 4-3-3. As for Ballack I nailed my case early on - he wouldn't get into my Chelsea team in a diamond or 4-3-3. I've not seen anything from him - or has any real football fan from other clubs ( and I have a huge circle of friends/ contacts and customers both here and abroad - and G4 should take note of this ! - I ain't got time to post an average 6 a day !!) they ALL think in the same way, and i've seen nothing to change my mind. Also we are talking about two players that possiblyare showing signs of being past their best, is it wrong to expect more from seasoned pro's and highlight concern? Class is permanent we all know that and that's why I still have high hopes both will make key contributions in crucial games - like Sunday for example, or more to the point where we need it and have came up short in Jose's reign, in the Champions League. BUT lets all be honest here. IF we had signed Shevchenko when we signed Didier - Chelsea fans would have expected him to be a instant hit and one to drive us to the title and the Champions League. The fact still remains the Drog was our Centre Forward when the title came home for the first time in 50 years and wasn't regarded as a World Class striker. He played a major part in that make no mistake, a lone Central Striker is a bloody hard job to do. I was ridiculed when I said Drogba was among the best 5 strikers in the World early doors, flowing posts of goalscorers, household names, glowing reputations followed. Now he's classed in a matter of months as probably as Carlsberg might say the best striker in the world - some might say better to our cause than Shevchenko. Concern is different as it can be from lack of total faith but i've got to confess in Ballack's case my patience is close to being snapped. ( If i've miss- spelt anything or have put text out of order please excuse me - but i'm half pissed - Free Red wine from the South of France )
Scott Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 They can't all be f**kin Zola's !! Give 'em a chance. You Brits forget the the game in England is so much different than any where else on the planet. Both Drogba and Esse looked crap their first season. Give Sheva and Bollack a little time. btw: if I spelled anything wrong give me a brake, I'm in Rio drinking $3 (6pound) bottles of rum . Ta
loz Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 Star, First off you are a git! Why? Simply because I am having to pay for the red wine I am drinking and I guaranteee yours is shed loads better! As for Ballack I nailed my case early on - he wouldn't get into my Chelsea team in a diamond or 4-3-3. I've not seen anything from him - or has any real football fan from other clubs ( and I have a huge circle of friends/ contacts and customers both here and abroad - and G4 should take note of this ! - I ain't got time to post an average 6 a day !!) they ALL think in the same way, and i've seen nothing to change my mind. Are you, your customers all your friends and family, and all the real football fans in the world (you been talking to Kenn ) talking about Ballack just since he joined Chelsea or Ballack throughout his career? If I was asked the question based purely on what I have seen of Ballack in a Chelsea shirt I would agree with you. If I was asked it based on what I have seen of him throughout his career he would walk into the Chelsea team. Also we are talking about two players that possiblyare showing signs of being past their best, is it wrong to expect more from seasoned pro's and highlight concern? Of course it isn't wrong to expect more but I do think it is riduclous to think that just ebcause they are seasoned pros means they can walk into a new team, in a new league, in a new country and and start producing their best from day one. There are a few of us who are now being mocked because we dared criticise Drogba in his first season yet I can tell you for fact that those people gave Drogba far longer than you have given Ballack and, to a lesser extent Sheva. BUT lets all be honest here. IF we had signed Shevchenko when we signed Didier - Chelsea fans would have expected him to be a instant hit and one to drive us to the title and the Champions League. Not me, see above - we have all watched football long enough to know that it can take players time to settle in. SOme explode onto the scene for the first few weeks then have a quiet period, some take time to get up to speed, and for some it never works out when you expect it to but they then move on and find their feet again at a different club. I would never say that just because a player has a big reputation means they should automatically hit top form on day one. The fact still remains the Drog was our Centre Forward when the title came home for the first time in 50 years and wasn't regarded as a World Class striker. He played a major part in that make no mistake, a lone Central Striker is a bloody hard job to do. Very true. And Wayne Bridge was our left back yet you are desperate to see him replaced by Ashley Cole even when Wayne was in far better form. I was ridiculed when I said Drogba was among the best 5 strikers in the World early doors, flowing posts of goalscorers, household names, glowing reputations followed. That is probably because he wasn't. Surely even the most die hard Drogba fan cannot put his hand on his heart and say that in his first season for us he was one of the best five strikers in the world (Wicksy? ) He was nowhere bloody near it. Now he's classed in a matter of months as probably as Carlsberg might say the best striker in the world - some might say better to our cause than Shevchenko. More like 18 months, but fair enough he has improved an astonishing amount. Concern is different as it can be from lack of total faith but i've got to confess in Ballack's case my patience is close to being snapped. At the risk of repeating myself time and time again that is a patience level that seems to be very elasticated. For some it is very very long, for others astonishingly short. Ballack has not had a world shattering start to his Chelsea career, of that there is little doubt. However so far he has not had as many poor games as say Lampard did when he went through a ropey spell of form for us. Did your patience wear thin with Lamps or were you ready to ride that one out? When Joe was under performing for us (and there was a specll where he was) were you so quick to get tired of him?
Guest Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 Players who started slowly: D.Drogba P.Ferreira A.Cole J.Cole W.Bridge C.Makelele F.Lampard M.Essien M.Ballack S.Kalou A.Shevchenko Players who hit the ground running: A.Robben R.Carvalho P.Cech Which list looks bigger to you?.......... Where is the bulk of our best and most successful players from?...... Hell, looking at this list makes me think its almost an oman to start well at Chelsea. Just ask Adrian Mutu.......
loz Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 I wouldn't say Maka started slowly, I would say it just took people a while to appreciate what he brought to the team.
ethicalstrategy Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 I wouldn't say Maka started slowly, I would say it just took people a while to appreciate what he brought to the team. I would say he started slowly. In Claudio's last season he really hadn't adapted to the english league. He wanted too long on the ball and gave it away a lot. But since Jose arrived he has been fantastic. Whether the two things are related I'm not sure.
Guest Posted November 24, 2006 Posted November 24, 2006 I wouldn't say Maka started slowly, I would say it just took people a while to appreciate what he brought to the team. I would say he started slowly. In Claudio's last season he really hadn't adapted to the english league. He wanted too long on the ball and gave it away a lot. But since Jose arrived he has been fantastic. Whether the two things are related I'm not sure. Yes...... Though in fairness to Maka he joined about a quarter of the way into the season and was thrown straight into the first team.
g3.7 Posted November 25, 2006 Posted November 25, 2006 maka joined, and was initially at near his best, then his form dipped later on a bit, but consistently, thoughout the season he was worth his place to anyone who understood how he is meant to play. of course, when scott parker arrived everyone wanted him in the side, and would stubbornly protest for him. every single minute error was discussed and scotty would have done it better. not only was he young and english, but crucially he had a nickname ending with the letter "y". makelele was also too old, and a mercenary.
loz Posted November 25, 2006 Posted November 25, 2006 I know your keyboard must have stopped working G4 a I am sure you meant to type 'and didn't play with a grimace on his face, "till I die" tattoed across his chest and when he tackled you couldn't hear the collision, and his war cry, as far away as Preston'
BlueBosnian Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 The voting seems to be finished, so I cannot vote. I would give my vote to Ballack, because I think his services are more required. The fee means nothing, but it's great to know we got him for free.
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