It seems an age since Peter Kenyon arrived here stating we would become bigger than Man United, but the signs are clear that the tide is turning for us in London let alone in Salford that our infrastructure is lagging miles behind.

Nobody can expect a term of management like Alex Ferguson, one can expect though the same control of team and backroom matters and respect of the dressing room, boardroom and owners of the club.

We all believe we are better of than United with Roman rather the Glaziers and rightly so.

So that is a starting point in our favour as we begin the quest to get our place back at the elite of the premiership.

The fact that Carlo, unlike other Managers with worse runs in Roman's reign, is still in his job, makes me feel he is more untouchable than his predecessors and maybe just maybe has the respect of our owner.

He has to be given money to tweak our squad and the choice of who to replace Ray Wilkins. My guess the man he would love is Maldini.

If you look at Man Utd, Ferguson gradually broke up that famous youth team that dominated football like Liverpool in the 80's, from Beckham to Ronaldo they always bounce back when it looks like they are being threatened in the way we have collapsed. I can't remember halfway through the season when they were 5th or encounterd a consistently bad run.

They have kept Scholes and Giggs in cotton wool and for experience when it matters and we have to do exactly that with Terry, Lampard and Drogba, the ageing rest like Ferreira must be treated as the Neville that went to Everton.

Quite how, after Roman splashed his cash and joey cole rammed in the goal that won us our 2nd title under Jose, a game in which there was a serious gap in class between the two, Man Utd managed to win 3 titles on the bounce is beyond me, only our infrastructure, those making key decisions can explain, because we had them make no mistake on the ropes ready for a knockout. We helped them as much as they helped themselves for certain.

What we have to do is give Carlo the opportunity to make his mark on the squad, we have had more managers than signings since Jose left !

Utd suffered last year with injuries in defence and lost Ronaldo and still took us to the wire, this together with the way they wrestled superiority back from us makes me feel they can handle Man City in the future, the question is - can we ?

Rooney has been crap this season and they lost Valencia, yet are miles clear again, that's how you handle things, those gem signings like Hernandez pop up now and then too, that's what we need to aspire to.

when did we last develop or sign a gem ?

Carlo also needs to grasp the English mind games quickly, nobody anywhere picked up Mancini's mind games ( that he applied at Inter to unsettle Milan ) by saying Chelsea would easily win the league just before and after they beat us at there place - Carlo simply agreed and praised his knowledge.

Fergie was at it with Spurs only two days ago and look what happened to them last night as well !

Quite what are boardroom are discussing at the moment is anyones guess but the problems we have at the moment are far deeper than that of manager and players.

Contracts are negotiated poorly and without logic. I've noticed utd have got shawcross and Rossi on first option buy back clauses, that's something else we can learn from, it's only a matter of time before we sell a young player in our youngster conveyerbelt that becomes a world great somewhere else !

I hate Man Utd than anyone but you have to take note of shrewdness.

I've said it before and I will say it again, we have to also look at a new ground at Earls Court, better than Old Trafford and the emirates and more appealing than Wembley. My dads ashes are in the shed goal, if I can put my heart and feelings aside for the benefit of Chelsea's future - roman sure can.

Batesy's bridge cannot survive with 40000 gates, the opportunities for us at Earls Court are endless and it is still Chelsea territory !

Let's hope logic prevails and we have a team in the future with Josh, little chippy, bruma, PVA and Kakuta surrounded by a clutch of world class talent with 60000 non muppets !

Not a single reply? Says it all really.

For what it's worth (and that ain't a lot round here), I totally agree. If you can't learn from your enemies, you won't be learning anything much. As Hutch pointed out though, it's by no means certain that SAF's (or Wenger's) successor will be given the same amount of power. Divide and rule seems to be the new way.

I wonder what the other lot on Merseyside will do to turn things round. On thing's for sure, scousers won't support a southerner, so that's the new owners' first big gaffe. I'm sure Hodgson knew that, and will be happy to trouser the cheque when it's over.

As it happens, I made a similar point in this thread not so long ago. That didn't get any response either, which I took to mean that although people might well have agreed with the points made, there was a natural reluctance to start bigging up the opposition. But anyway, here it is again:

I think there may just possibly be a lesson here somewhere:

According to a report in the Daily Mirror, Sir Alex Ferguson is getting ready to release six of his Manchester United first team squad over the next two transfer windows with a view to promoting several promising youngsters as replacements.

The Red Devils currently top the Premier League ahead of neighbours Manchester City, Arsenal, Tottenham Hotspur and reigning champions Chelsea but despite their solid form it appears change is on the horizon at Old Trafford.

Goalkeeping duo Edwin van der Sar and Tomasz Kuszczak, defenders Wes Brown and Gary Neville, midfielder Owen Hargreaves and veteran striker Michael Owen have all been tipped to leave Manchester in the next six months.

In their place Chris Smalling and Darren Gibson will be given greater first team responsibility, while Tom Cleverly and Danny Welbeck will be recalled from their loan spells at Wigan Athletic and Sunderland respectively.

With the likes of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes likely to retire before 2012, it looks as though United will soon have to make do without the famed 90s generation who have shaped the modern history of the club.

Speaking about his future plans for the squad, the 69-year-old tactician revealed:

"Sometimes when a player grows old, you have to recognise it and they have to move on.

"We have to maintain a level of success at the top end of the game.

"We can't afford bad years or breaking-in years. We have had periods like that, but we don't want it and we need to be successful all the time."

LINK

Great post Star and I agree with you, we certainly need to act and that would be sooner rather then later.

Our squad is growing old and needs big changes. But the problem is we've left ourselves with so many first choice players who are getting on and nearly past it now that we're going to need a huge investment to replace them and Roman doesn't seem willing to spend big money anymore.

If you look at a club like Man Utd, they are doing it the right way. When a player is past it, they move him on and bring in youngsters. Sure they still have some oldies like Scholes, Neville and Giggs. But they've always got that blend of a few older players with experience and young players, rotating them.

Eg:

Old (30+): Neville, Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand, VDS

Youngsters: Fabio, Gibson, Evans, Hernadez - Get starts and regular sub appearances.

Whereas, for us:

Old: Cole, Terry, Ferreira, Lampard, Malouda, Anelka, Drogba

Youngsters: Sturridge, Kakuta, McEachran, Bruma - Hardly ever get games. Maybe 10 mins here and there.

So we're not going to see a mass exodus of players and £100m of new ones coming in during the summer. But what we do need to do is start phasing the older players out and giving more time to the young players, rotating them so they get a good chance to prove themselves. At the moment we are starting every game with these players and at their age and with the injury problems we are having, they're simply not going to be able to play 50+ games a season anymore, but Carlo doesn#t seem to have the confidence to start the youth...

For example, over the summer if we get rid of:

Ferreira, Anelka and Benayoun, maybe bringing in about £10m in total for them.

We can then bring in a couple of new players along with actually giving more of a chance to some of the younger players.

The squad I'd like to see next season would be:

Cech - Starts all EPL games

Turnbull - Starts CC and early FAC games

Walker - Backup incase of injuries

Cole - Starts about 20-25 EPL games.

PVA - Starts about 10-15 EPL, against the weaker opposition, such as newly promoted teams. Also CC and early FAC.

Terry - Starts about 20-25 EPL games.

Alex - Starts about 20-25 EPL games

Ivanovic - Starts about 15-20 EPL games.

Bruma - Starts about 5-10 EPL games, against the weaker opposition. Also CC and early FAC

Bosingwa - Starts about 20 EPL games.

Seamus Coleman (£10m?) - Starts about 15-20 EPL games, as well as CC and FAC. Depending on Bos's form.

Lampard - Starts about 20 EPL games.

Essien - Starts about 15-20 EPL games.

Ramires - Starts about 10-15 EPL games.

Mikel - Starts about 15-20 EPL games.

McEachran - Starts about 10 EPL games, against weaker opposition, also CC and early FAC.

Malouda - Starts about 15-20 EPL games.

Kakuta - Starts about 15-20 EPL games, also CC and early FAC.

Zhirkov - Starts about 5-10 EPL games, or sell him.

Adam Johnson (£15m?) - Starts about 20-30 EPL games.

Kalou - Starts about 10 EPL games. Mainly used as inpact sub.

Drogba - Starts about 15-20 EPL games.

Sturridge - Starts about 10-15 EPL games, also CC and FAC.

Borini - Starts about 5 EPL games, also CC and FAC.

4th Striker (under 24 years old, less than £10m - Not sure who yet) - Starts about 5-10 EPL games.

All of that of course depends on the system, eg: 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or whatever formation we line up with. Also the starts are rough estimates, I haven't counted them up to make sure it all works out perfectly.

But that is a much better blend of young and old than we are currently using. Because you can't use the same 30+ players for 50-60 games per season and expect to win everything. It's also expenditure of about £30-40m on players, which I don't think is unreasonable, since Ramires alone cost us nearly £20m last summer.

Anyway, that's what I'd go for.

Edited January 7, 201114 yr by BlueSkies

Why is everyone quoting £15m for Adam Johnson? Is this some other Adam Johnson that hasn't been snapped up by City yet?

Get the next guy. Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, from Southampton. Just to stay on topic,... that's what Man United would do

Not a single reply? Says it all really.

I dont get it, what does it say about us? Alot of people are anti-Carlo but alot of people (and I happen to be one of them) agree with every word written there, and by Hutch.

The difference between us and them is definitely the control of the manager, and ultimately, the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They have it coming in constantly from their commercial turnover, and for whatever reason, this club is not making enough of it to reinvest in the squad in any way. We all known ROman wants responsibility, not reckless spending anymore. This allows them a longer leash for buying players who may or may not come good, even if they have to write that money off.

I agree with the assessment of buying to stay on top. Look at Nani. 17 million a few years ago, and now he looks like he is the heir apparrent to Cristiano Ronaldo. They took a gamble on him and showed patience. He wasnt an established star, but he had alot of potential. Same with Anderson. Same with Hernandez. Same with the da Silva twins. Same, im sure, with someone like Bebe. Another great advantage they have over us is they can actually be sure of developing that talent.

For us, and this generation, I think its too late for that. I would love to see Frank and JT going out like Giggs and Scholes, playing every 3rd match, with a new generation, which should be coming in right about now, learning from them and their professional skills. But unless ROman changes his mind about alot of things, thats a pipe dream.

Why is everyone quoting £15m for Adam Johnson? Is this some other Adam Johnson that hasn't been snapped up by City yet?

Get the next guy. Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, from Southampton. Just to stay on topic,... that's what Man United would do

Good question, and point.

We are never ever ever getting Adam Johnson. City would rather hand deliver him to Siberia than sell him to a team who could potentially knock them off.....if they ever sell him at all.

Ive heard about Oxlade-Chamberlain, but never seen him, but you are exactly right. We missed the train on Johnson and City didnt. That one is gone.

Very good posts by Star and Blue skies.

There is a huge difference between the way Manure runs things and the way we do. Fergie has earned the right to have total control over the playing side. When we had a manager of similar stature in Jose, the board were scared and saw a club that would be over-reliant on a dominant figure, whose departure would leave us nowhere. They set about creating a structure that would outlive Jose and survive his departure, with an overseer in Avram and a youth development/ recruitment specialist in Arnesen.

The absurdity was that putting in this structure was what drove Jose out prematurely. Yes, he was going to move on one day, but the club's actions accelerated things rapidly.

Since then, although we've continued to benefit from the success brought about by Jose's and Ranieri's players, the structure at the top has changed. We've not replaced Avram as an overseer, and the board has taken to getting rid of the manager's assistant without his approval. And Arnesen won't be around after this year, although he is still in charge of player recruitment, albeit with a massively reduced budget, due to a combination of UEFA's new rules and RA's desire to make the club self-sufficient.

And since then the core of our side has aged by 3 years, although to say the club has done nothing to address that is bollocks, given the way we dispensed with Ballack, Deco, JC, Belletti and RC and promoted our best youngsters. Yes, we are paying hugely for that this season, but it was always going to to be a difficult move, and putting it off would only have added to the ageing issue, while worsening our financial position and giving less scope for investment in new players.

We still live beyond our means as a club, even though our spending now puts us around 15th in the transfer league table.

I think what we (Manchester United) have that you dont and definitely need is stability of manager. Changing managers everytime the team seems to underperform wont allow the manager to build the team as they will need to work with the young players to see how they should be incorporated into the team. Even after what Carlo Ancelotti has achieved already with chelsea, his job seemed under threat recently which is crazy.

I think you'll find that it was only in the papers that his job was under threat - there was nothing from either Ancellotti or the club to suggest that there was anything in the press rumours, and Carlo himself stated th eexact opposite, but that doesn't fit with the red-top rags agenda.

But, I take your general point, we do need managerial stability, which we now have, hopefully

I think what we (Manchester United) have that you dont and definitely need is stability of manager. Changing managers everytime the team seems to underperform wont allow the manager to build the team as they will need to work with the young players to see how they should be incorporated into the team. Even after what Carlo Ancelotti has achieved already with chelsea, his job seemed under threat recently which is crazy.

The other thing with having stability and trust in a manager is he will feel more able to play young players without risk of recriminations, something your manager and Wenger can do, which is something we all want to see happen at the club.

I think what we (Manchester United) have that you dont and definitely need is stability of manager. Changing managers everytime the team seems to underperform wont allow the manager to build the team as they will need to work with the young players to see how they should be incorporated into the team. Even after what Carlo Ancelotti has achieved already with chelsea, his job seemed under threat recently which is crazy.

Conversely I think that the main reason for your continued success is that Ferguson's been your manager for so long. Managerial longevity is something we haven't had for a long time, since way before Mourinho which is what I'm guessing you'd be referring to. So without boring you with a history lesson, I'll just take the managerial changes from Jose onwards. Jose himself was looked on as a step up from Ranieri, who's days were numbered especially after the Champions League fiasco.

Then you have Jose, who has a track record of moving on every two or three years. And that's aside from the issue of the ego clash. Avram Grant was I believe, a temporary stop gap, Scolari was a massive mistake, Guus Hiddink was only here on a temporary basis. And now there's Carlo. Who's job has been under threat almost from the word go .. according to the media. Of course he's under pressure, it goes with the job. But pressure plus the sack don't necessarily go hand in hand. In short, managerial stability is something we've been aiming at, something we've wanted to achieve but hasn't been possible as yet, and that the there have been a variety of reasons for the last few managerial changes, which whether you agree with them or not, are very different to the knee jerk "sack him as soon as it goes tits" mentality that the media would have you believe is the norm.

I think you'll find that it was only in the papers that his job was under threat - there was nothing from either Ancellotti or the club to suggest that there was anything in the press rumours, and Carlo himself stated th eexact opposite, but that doesn't fit with the red-top rags agenda.

But, I take your general point, we do need managerial stability, which we now have, hopefully

You should probably get the 'red top rags' idea out of your head mate, you'll live longer. I wasnt asking based on what the papers were saying. I was basing it on the sackings of Avram Grant and the other bloke who looks like my dad. Grant came within a penalty kick from Terry to winning you the champions league but wasnt given an opportunity to carry on. Abramovic wants the champions league and if Ancelotti doesnt look like he will get it soon, he will probably be gone as well.

You should probably get the 'red top rags' idea out of your head mate, you'll live longer. I wasnt asking based on what the papers were saying. I was basing it on the sackings of Avram Grant and the other bloke who looks like my dad. Grant came within a penalty kick from Terry to winning you the champions league but wasnt given an opportunity to carry on. Abramovic wants the champions league and if Ancelotti doesnt look like he will get it soon, he will probably be gone as well.

Roman does want the CL, and with the signings of yesterday, it seems to be all the more clear. Sometimes I like to think that if JT would have made that spot kick, and Chelsea would have won the CL, things might have turned out bad for Chelsea, in that Roman would have said something like "OK, I have met all of my goals that I wanted when I bought Chelsea, and so now I'm out of here", and the moneybags would be gone for being a top level club. So, I see the CL like the Holy Grail, something to attain but if we don't get it, I am OK with that, since that will keep Roman here for a while longer.

Edited February 1, 201114 yr by Phillip

Conversely I think that the main reason for your continued success is that Ferguson's been your manager for so long. Managerial longevity is something we haven't had for a long time, since way before Mourinho which is what I'm guessing you'd be referring to. So without boring you with a history lesson, I'll just take the managerial changes from Jose onwards. Jose himself was looked on as a step up from Ranieri, who's days were numbered especially after the Champions League fiasco.

Then you have Jose, who has a track record of moving on every two or three years. And that's aside from the issue of the ego clash. Avram Grant was I believe, a temporary stop gap, Scolari was a massive mistake, Guus Hiddink was only here on a temporary basis. And now there's Carlo. Who's job has been under threat almost from the word go .. according to the media. Of course he's under pressure, it goes with the job. But pressure plus the sack don't necessarily go hand in hand. In short, managerial stability is something we've been aiming at, something we've wanted to achieve but hasn't been possible as yet, and that the there have been a variety of reasons for the last few managerial changes, which whether you agree with them or not, are very different to the knee jerk "sack him as soon as it goes tits" mentality that the media would have you believe is the norm.

Im seriously dreading the day that Fergie calls it quits. We will probably be looking for the next manager that comes in to have a long period in charge but i seriously doubt that will happen. Since you mentioned the ego clash between Mourinho and Abramovic, thats exactly the sort of thing you want to avoid if you want a long standing manger i feel. while mourinho was at chelsea, it always seemed like he loved the club and wanted to stay for a long time. In the end, it will always be the decision of abramovic and so far he looks like a very impatient man.

Im seriously dreading the day that Fergie calls it quits. We will probably be looking for the next manager that comes in to have a long period in charge but i seriously doubt that will happen. Since you mentioned the ego clash between Mourinho and Abramovic, thats exactly the sort of thing you want to avoid if you want a long standing manger i feel. while mourinho was at chelsea, it always seemed like he loved the club and wanted to stay for a long time. In the end, it will always be the decision of abramovic and so far he looks like a very impatient man.

I'll take your point about Mourinho once he's decided to stay anywhere for for than a couple of years. So far all the indications are that it's just not his nature. But you never know.

In the meantime, you should find this of interest:

Fergie rules out new role

Basically all he's saying is once he's gone he's gone.

If Sir Alex transformed united,then what will happen when he goes?.

I'll take your point about Mourinho once he's decided to stay anywhere for for than a couple of years. So far all the indications are that it's just not his nature. But you never know.

In the meantime, you should find this of interest:

Basically all he's saying is once he's gone he's gone.

Regarding Mourinho, i'll get back to you after he's completed his fifth year at Old Trafford :P. As for Fergie, its not a surprise that hes going to quit once hes finished managing the team. He deserves to spend time with his family once hes done but unfortunately for the rest of you, i dont think hes going anywhere anytime soon.

When Ferguson goes,sh*tcreek & paddle springs to mind.

I think what we (Manchester United) have that you dont and definitely need is stability of manager. Changing managers everytime the team seems to underperform wont allow the manager to build the team as they will need to work with the young players to see how they should be incorporated into the team. Even after what Carlo Ancelotti has achieved already with chelsea, his job seemed under threat recently which is crazy.

I agree with with Yorkley said: If Roman didnt sack Carlo after that, you can bet that he wants him around a long time. Scolari was brand new and he was let go after 7 months and it gave the team a huge lift. Roman couldve probably gotten such a lift with a 2-3m dismissal package and sending Carlo packing, but instead he rode out the chaos and and then spent alot more to reignite our season.

But the key is definitely the stability. Your gaffer has had his set up in place for 25 years, which is just mind blowing, and he is the king of the castle there. He can take a risk with money and fail, despite your tight finances, but he also has the support to get the players young or old he wants, and mesh them into the team over time. Hernandez right now looks like a future star, and he cost you almost nothing. He partners Berbatov which you had to pay over the odds for, but both are players the club had the will and patience to bring in and stick behind and its paid off. It wouldnt be possible in a more chaotic setup.

Chelsea is different because here the owner wants some kind of recognition too. He is the man who has made this all happen, and he is a smart man becuase he knows investing millions in the ground, support structure, training facility, youth set up, etc, will outweigh anything put into one player.