REAL MEN

[clubhappy]

We have the rugger world cup on the way , and i'll be miles away from it as i dont regard it as entertainment , but thats just me. Anyway , the big issue that usually raises its head amongst rugger buggers here in Dublin is the big difference between real men and footballers . Rugby players are real men , proper sports men who dont whinge or bitch about getting knocked over or tackled , footballers are a bunch of pussys who cant take physical agression .

Now ive had this arguement many times with the upper class section of the Dublin community , you know them , they drink points of hoino and get loike totally sloshed then tell everybody how awsome it was listening to The Boss back in Fergal's house while his totally rich parents were away .

My reaction is always about the difference in sports , not whos a bigger or better man .

Real men is a term used loosely far too much , the big difference is the fact they are two different sports , Gaa players are trained and coached to take hard physical knocks , the same with rugby players , the coaching and diets are totally different too , football is more about skill and being quick , if Messi gets knocked over & gets injured its not because hes less a man than a Gaa player or rugby player , its because hes not physicall built to to take it , if you were to fill him full of high fat food and put him in the gym to look like a rugby player then he wouldnt be the best footballer in the world so i dont buy into that whole real men sh*te . As for rugby , its played by guys who werent good enough to make it as gaa players , and its usually supported people called Fergal, Rory and Simon , who loike are totally awsome , rugby is 30 fat blokes shoving each other around a field for 80 mins then applaud each other off the pitch at the end for being oh so totally sporting , complete b***ox . No real rivalry or passion . in other words sh*tE

[Spiller86]

It's an argument that happens often here in Australia mate, with people of both Rugby codes.

The real negative reaction I think comes from the diving and pretending to be injured to get players booked. I think that is a bad look. It's not as prevalent in England but amongst Latin players in particular it just goes too far. It infuriates me personally actually, because it continues to give ammunition to the people you're talking about. Every time Danny Alves dives and then stays down holding his face to get someone booked, they turn someone else away from the game.

I've played both rugby codes and enjoy both, but all sports have their own facets that are interesting and football is no different. As far as I'm concerned if the diving and the rolling around could be stopped, some of the perception that you're referring to could be haulted as well. In Australia over the past couple of seasons a rule has been implemented that allows for video evidence to be used, and individuals found to have dived for the award of a penalty are subsequently suspended for 3 matches. I actually think that should be extended to players who have other players booked as well, and implemented worldwide by FIFA. That'd stop those little softcocks diving around and pretending to be injured.

[Pride of London]

Watching the Real Madrid v. Barca tie in the CL last year you saw the best players in the world plying their trade, but what you also saw a hell of a lot of was diving, whinging and moaning. I don't think anyone makes the not "real men" argument about say swimmers, jockeys, runners or tennis players for example even though those sports obviously have absolutely no contact.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone fake an injury in those sports, and if one were to fake an injury in the sprint you wouldn't gain an advantage. I've lost count of the amount of times they say that the tackle is a dying art, and what a pity it is that they keep disabling defenders. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you severely limit what defenders can get away with the whole team will be set up so as not to concede.

Play acting and diving are forms of gamesmanship that make the spectacle far more frustrating to watch, my abiding memory from the CL Classico isn't a goal but Pepe (admittedly a sh*tehawk) getting sent off for a tackle when he clearly went for the ball.

I mean defensive players would be the ones that I think those sorts would view as real me, tough tackling, no nonsense , I mean the nickname "Chopper" says a lot about what role there was for them. I think that when you just see these guys getting so emasculated on the field that all they have to do to get a yellow is tap the player, if the attacking player is at the right angle as to fool the referee.

Fifa have taken a game where to succeed you needed a good mix of tough nuts and flair players, and bar stewardized into one where the rules are designed to suit flair players, the skills that these lads have are being rewarded, whereas the skills the other lads have are become disenfranchised totally in my opinion. I watched the Slovakia Ireland, and Madedonia Russia games last weekend, and there was a free kick every third minute. I think there was one genuinely dirty tackle in either game.

It was about 30 minutes into the Ireland match before I'd have felt compelled to award a free. I think it's even harder to watch as a neutral, I can overlook and excuse things that the Irish team do pretty easily, but if you don't have an allegiance it isn't just whoever you're playing is ruining the game, but it's everyone!

I honestly believe all this tippy tappy nonsense is a simple evolution of the fact that the governing body thinks people just want to see loads of passing and no contact at all, I think the reality is very far from that, and I think with the financial set up of the sport it allows for one team such as Barcalona to have a huge advantage by having a flair player in every position, because legally stopping these players is made ever harder. I honestly believe that FIFA are destroying the game like this.

Imagine if hey banned scrums , rucks and mauls, and only allowed ankle tap tackles from behind, imagine how truly emasculated the forward line would be. I think that's what we're creeping towards as to counteract what FIFA wants the vast majority of teams are playing far more conservatively.

[Hutch]

Reading "A Season With Verona" lately (thanks to all those who recommended it), an Italian player talks to the author about the differences between playing in the Italian and English League. "In Italy" he says, "the coaches tell you to dive, to do anything to win a free kick or penalty, but in England this is frowned on, the fans express their disapproval".

I'm paraphrasing here, and if I have time later, I'll look for the exact quote. However, the meaning of the above is accurate - nothing is lost in translation or paraphrase. This is proof that while there have always been the occasional divers or players who occasionally dive) in the English game (Francis Lee for instance), diving and cheating has historically been more prevalent in the Italian league. I'm willing to guess that the same goes for certain other European Leagues. And that it's the influx of European players and coaches that has led to the increase of diving in the English game over the past few years.

Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of xenophobia, of blaming "bloody foreigners" or whatever, remember that the source for this information is a player who has played in Italian and English leagues.

[dkw]

Very good posts in here, and sums up pretty much how I feel. Though the one thing missing is the abuse refs now get when basically they spend a full match trying not to be conned and cheated by every single player on the pitch. The amount of cheating is at a saturation point, I find myself watching football now and not enjoying it anymore. I have always been an RL fan (and player) as much as a football fan, and that is a sport where cheating is pretty much frowned upon, and abusing a ref is a definite no no. If a player stays down in RL then you know he is injured, no feigning and rolling around in that sport. But for the first time in my life I am now seriously finding it difficult to watch football, other than Chelsea games obviously.

[Hutch]

Ok, I've found a couple of quotes to illustrate what I was saying earlier. I'm sure there are other relevant passages, but these two illustrate my point well enough:

Tim Parks: Does the coach or the club ever encourage the players to be violent or to cheat?

'It's in your character', Apolloni casts about. 'It's how you were brought up and what you saw at home.' Then, unprovoked he says something that any Englishman living in Italy would be shot for saying, 'Basically, you know, the further south you go, the trickier people get and the more likely they are to cheat. It's a Latin thing'

And Fabrizio Ravenelli,

'I'd forgotten the English don't like you to protest about these things, but normally the Mister [coach/manager] tells me it's part of my job to protest to the referee'

Among the questions raised by Apolloni's comment in particular is: does this "Latin thing" extend to Italian and Argentinian rugby teams, or is it confined to football?

Incidentally, I would add to what's already been written about "A Season With Verona". I'd highly recommend it. The author, an Englishman who'd lived in Italy for several years, takes the plunge and follows the Hellas Verona to away games all over Italy. The book provides numerous insights into not only the differences, but also the similarities between Italian and English football, mostly from a fans perspective, but also includes interviews with players, managers and owners. The season becomes a relegation fight - and without giving anything away, a few weeks back I stayed up all night to finish the book, not least because I wanted to know whether or not they managed to avoid the drop.

There are also numerous Chelsea related references. Franco Zola gets a mention, as do Ancelotti and Ranieri who were both managing different Serie A sides that season, and Adrian Mutu was actually a Hellas Verona player.

[Pride of London]

Before anyone jumps in to accuse me of xenophobia, of blaming "bloody foreigners" or whatever, remember that the source for this information is a player who has played in Italian and English leagues.

In England football was always the working man's game, and I've always thought the English working class had a great sense of fair-play and that's reflected in the attitudes we have in these islands naturally enough. The problem is that the global game is reflected one ideal which is very divergent from what we're used to and want to see. If the game was run from England as opposed to France I think our attitude would be the one we're trying to foster and if we're being fair I don't think that'd be right either, as much as I dislike it if that's they way they want to play let them play that way. The problem is in my opinion where there's an influx of players from one tradition into another it somewhat dilutes the game, but more pressing an issue is that at international level, and in the international club competitions they don't balance between these two traditions, they laud one and deny the legitimacy of the other.

I mean I wouldn't have time for Lee Dixon but he was asked on Football Focus how would he change the game, he said bring back the tackle from behind and have a red card for diving and book for exaggeration. It's gone too far when I have common ground with former Arsenal players, I tell you that much!

[dkw]

I mean I wouldn't have time for Lee Dixon but he was asked on Football Focus how would he change the game, he said bring back the tackle from behind and have a red card for diving and book for exaggeration. It's gone too far when I have common ground with former Arsenal players, I tell you that much!

He will be off Wenger`s xmas card list for saying that, he would love nothing more than to see tackling banned.

[Englishman]

This 'rugby players are gentlemen and real men' line is such a cliche. I don't find spear tackles and eye gouging particularly manly. And I shall never forget the world cup final that England won a few years ago, when a player threw a punch in the very first minute! Then there was that controversy a while back when a rugby player faked a blood injury so his team could make a substitution.

Don't get me wrong, there are things to admire in rugby. Their players have much more respect for the refs and they don't dive, and I also like the idea of a stop clock, but it's not really in a position to be getting on its high horse about football.

[Pride of London]

This 'rugby players are gentlemen and real men' line is such a cliche. I don't find spear tackles and eye gouging particularly manly. And I shall never forget the world cup final that England won a few years ago, when a player threw a punch in the very first minute! Then there was that controversy a while back when a rugby player faked a blood injury so his team could make a substitution.

Don't get me wrong, there are things to admire in rugby. Their players have much more respect for the refs and they don't dive, and I also like the idea of a stop clock, but it's not really in a position to be getting on its high horse about football.

That stuff with the fake blood was despicable but there was a good long ban afterwards when it was found out, how often do we get the pleasure of seeing players banned for diving though?

If it ever happens to Alves or Busquets please let me now, think i'd replay the tape until it wore out!

[Kev123]

You can quote one instance in rugby, maybe at a pinch several, but there are daily (thus tens of thousands) examples of simulation/exaggeration in football. I do see rugby as being far more respectful in the way the players handle themselves (thus more gentlemanly if u will), The way I see it rugby is a game where violence is inherently involved. You stop a player through use of body mechanics/leverage, and hitting really f*cking hard. When you have a sport that focused on inflicting physical punishment there will naturally be a occasional punch or two (Ps. I love ice hockey for one reason and one reason only, if a fight starts, the ref allows it till one goes down). But in rugby the moment that whistle goes, the opposing players are respectful of eachother, and the ref. How many mass brawls have you seen in professional rugby? And then compare that to football. How many players do you see feigning injury or foul play in rugby, or blatantly trying to con the ref (moving the ball forward). Then compare that to football. How many players do you see surrounding the ref and trying to get a decision through physical intimidation and pressure in rugby, then compare that to football.

I love football more than any sport, but I'd be full of it if I were to say rugby players and the sport as a whole do not conduct themselves far more "gentlemanly" than football players, and the sport as a whole

Edited September 8, 2011 by Kev123