Do fan forums increase tribalism?

[Eggy McMuffin]

It's a question which has been bothering me for a while now. Tribalism is something which is becoming more and more apparent in the world of football, with fans less likely to show support for any other team. An example of that could be seen with our run in the Champions League, fans of other clubs refusal to support the only English side left in the competition.

The reason I ask about fan forums contributing to it is that nowhere else has it been as apparent as on the internet. My mates in real life would obviously rib me if Chelsea were to lose, but in general were supportive and went to the pub with me and cheered when Ramires scored. Two Liverpool fans in fact (a group of supporters picked out by many on here) were cheering along and although one of them was a little more subdued when Torres scored, they were both pleased for me as a supporter and Chelsea as a club. This doesn't seem to happen on the interwebs.

I have no problem with Liverpool as a club or its supporters, of course I'll ridicule them for losing and I'll rib them for their mishandling of the Suarez incident, just as I'd expect it in return for the Terry case and other such things, that is expected and is par for the course. You expect chants and comments taking the piss, it's banter... but what I see on here and the internet as a whole is something different, an actual hatred, and almost obsessive behaviour.

In the Battersea thread, I see a link to a Liverpool forum. It's a thread about our club's future and it's a thread which should be quite simply about what we as fans would like to see for our club, how this affects Liverpool I have no idea. It's an obsession which clearly goes both ways. They feel the need to have a thread criticising our club for planning to build a stadium and we as members of this forum feel the need to look for that thread and share it. Is this really normal behaviour?

This site, just like the now infamous RAWK and probably RedCafe (although I haven't been for a long time as no one posts up links to it any longer and I have never felt the need to look it up) are safe havens for fans. Only really Chelsea fans come on here, with the occasional visit from interesting characters. This means that we can share our pro Chelsea opinions in peace without anyone bringing us down to earth, but more troubling for me at least is that it also means we share our anti-Liverpool, anti-Tottenham, anti-anyone who wears a colour which isn't blue sentiments without the need to back them up or have them challenged in any way. The same thing happens on other sites and so stupid threads are made on RAWK and people on here look for them and make their own stupid threads.

So really, my questions to you all are

'Are fan forums increasing this obsessive tribal attitude?'

'Does this affect the wider footballing world?'

'Is there any way to stop it without killing a site I very much enjoy being on?'

'Or am I just being overly concerned?'

Fire away.

[MKBlue]

It's a question which has been bothering me for a while now. Tribalism is something which is becoming more and more apparent in the world of football, with fans less likely to show support for any other team. An example of that could be seen with our run in the Champions League, fans of other clubs refusal to support the only English side left in the competition.

The reason I ask about fan forums contributing to it is that nowhere else has it been as apparent as on the internet. My mates in real life would obviously rib me if Chelsea were to lose, but in general were supportive and went to the pub with me and cheered when Ramires scored. Two Liverpool fans in fact (a group of supporters picked out by many on here) were cheering along and although one of them was a little more subdued when Torres scored, they were both pleased for me as a supporter and Chelsea as a club. This doesn't seem to happen on the interwebs.

I have no problem with Liverpool as a club or its supporters, of course I'll ridicule them for losing and I'll rib them for their mishandling of the Suarez incident, just as I'd expect it in return for the Terry case and other such things, that is expected and is par for the course. You expect chants and comments taking the piss, it's banter... but what I see on here and the internet as a whole is something different, an actual hatred, and almost obsessive behaviour.

In the Battersea thread, I see a link to a Liverpool forum. It's a thread about our club's future and it's a thread which should be quite simply about what we as fans would like to see for our club, how this affects Liverpool I have no idea. It's an obsession which clearly goes both ways. They feel the need to have a thread criticising our club for planning to build a stadium and we as members of this forum feel the need to look for that thread and share it. Is this really normal behaviour?

This site, just like the now infamous RAWK and probably RedCafe (although I haven't been for a long time as no one posts up links to it any longer and I have never felt the need to look it up) are safe havens for fans. Only really Chelsea fans come on here, with the occasional visit from interesting characters. This means that we can share our pro Chelsea opinions in peace without anyone bringing us down to earth, but more troubling for me at least is that it also means we share our anti-Liverpool, anti-Tottenham, anti-anyone who wears a colour which isn't blue sentiments without the need to back them up or have them challenged in any way. The same thing happens on other sites and so stupid threads are made on RAWK and people on here look for them and make their own stupid threads.

So really, my questions to you all are

'Are fan forums increasing this obsessive tribal attitude?'

'Does this affect the wider footballing world?'

'Is there any way to stop it without killing a site I very much enjoy being on?'

'Or am I just being overly concerned?'

Fire away.

At times such as these I always find it comforting to fall back on the words of that popular old ditty sung at the Bridge..........f**k 'em all

[BlueBeard]

Football has been about tribalism for many years, I thought that was obvious

[chris4783cfc]

I think you make a fair point. Personally i think a lot of it is to do with the fact that a lot of people find it easy to sit behind a laptop or pc and slag off others. Which is why in the real world you dont see it as much.

[PloKoon13]

Great post Eggy, I've been having similar concerns recently and you voiced them almost perfectly.

Bitching about opposition teams is fair game in my eyes, as long as it's tongue-in cheek, and also if you're willing to take the same in kind from other fans. For example if I was to call Nani a 'diving c**t' I couldn't really complain if someone said the same about Drogba.

There have been a few times when an opposition fan has come onto the forum with a seemingly innocent query only to essentially be shouted down and given the boot. If a Liverpool/Tottenham/West Ham/QPR forum behaved like that to a Chelsea fan (and presumably they have, being just as tribal as we are, if less handsome) we'd call them everything under the sun.

Also it's important to be able to see football (or at least try) without blue-tinted spectacles. On the one hand I can claim that Bale resembles a chimp, but I can also recognize that he is a top-class winger. I noticed that I had double standards in terms of giving Chelsea players and opposition players credit. For example at the World Cup I was willing to excuse Lampard's performances because he didn't fit the system, didn't like the manager, (etc...) but I was just as willing to lay into Gerrard for being equally sh*t despite having the same disadvantages (and being played in left midfield for some reason).

Team sports are inherently tribal, and if you pick a side within the sport, bias of any form (and therefore conflict) is unavoidable. By participating in it we are indulging our base partisan insticts, but in order to avoid that totally we will have to become football fans before Chelsea fans, and I would imagine there are few who are willing to look at it in that way. The only other option is to sacrifice the sport entirely, which for me at least, is not an option.

I don't want to patronise people who have been doing this for far longer than I have by telling them how to be football fans; I don't think there's necessarily any 'right' or 'wrong' way to follow football, and I have said some terrible things in defence of Chelsea FC, but I think this is an issue we should at least give some thought to.

Edited May 5, 2012 by PloKoon13

[Eggy McMuffin]

Football has been about tribalism for many years, I thought that was obvious

It has, but it seems somewhat different now is all. I don't know what you think on that, mind having seen more than I have.

[Lofty.]

Well well well. It seems as if someone has a bit of a bee in their bonnet. I see you have an objection to my post in the "Battersea bid" thread.

Is this normal behaviour, you ask? The inference being that to post a link for the specific purpose of taking the pish out of some Liverpool supporting barmpot is "abnormal".

Ok. Well I dare say it has not escaped your notice that we play Liverpool in the FA Cup Final tomorrow, or even today if you wish to be pedantic. So is it "abnormal" or "obsessive" to take an interest in what Liverpool fans have to say about the forthcoming event? While perusing the opinions of said fans, I come across the thread I linked to. Which strikes me as amusing, so I make a wee comment here.

Obsessive and abnormal? Aye ok. If you say so.

As Bluebeard points out above, football has been tribal in nature for longer than most of us can remember. And here we have a few words on the Internet. Compared with what? Your pals in the pub with you, or with massed battles on the terraces in days of old? There are many many pubs where Chelsea's victory over Barcelona would not have been celebrated by neutrals or out and out rivals, where any outnumbered Chelsea fans present in such locations would be fortunate to escape unscathed. This is only the Internet, after all.

In the FA Cup Final thread I see you find it "sad people care enough to look for their opinion". As with my link in the "Battersea bid" thread, I think you're maybe missing the point here, taking these things a little too seriously perhaps. If supporters of other clubs post drivel, what earthly harm is there in taking the piss out of them?

[Mod]

I read it as 'tribadism' and when I entered the topic, I felt most let down.

[BlueBeard]

Back in the 60's & 70's the hardcore Chelsea fans hated Tottenham more than anyone, still do in fact. There were a few reasons for this but the tribal one was that they were North London and we were South London. Same went for West Ham (East London) and Arsenal (North London with a twist).

When we went to away games up north, the locals absolutely hated us merely because we came from London, and we hated them because they were a bunch of northern c*nts, which was fair enough.

Most Chelsea fans who went to away games on Merseyside came away with an extreme hatred of scousers, who were a cowardly bunch of c*nts who never had the bottle to fight our mob, but attacked non-hooligans and women with knives. That hatred has never left us. Liverpool fans hate us merely because we have had so much more success than them over the last few years (and long may it continue!), and we hate them for their cowardice and gobbiness.

Back in the 60's & 70's (again), QPR and Fulham were arch rivals, they hated each other. They were normally in and around the 2nd Division at that time, and hardly ever played against us. However, whenever Chelsea did play either of them away, their home ends were left totally empty and we'd just walk in and take it over, they were terrified of us. Sadly, now that the good old fisticuffs has been totally outlawed, they've crept back in and think that they're our main rivals, f*ckin' dreamers. West London tribal rivalry that doesn't really exist.

Chelsea v Millwall was always south-west London versus south-east London - quite a few of us knew each other. Charlton, Crystal Palace & Orient never counted, they were all w*nkers.

Obviously there was similar rivalry all over the country, it's been going on for over 50 years.

[MKBlue]

Back in the 60's & 70's the hardcore Chelsea fans hated Tottenham more than anyone, still do in fact. There were a few reasons for this but the tribal one was that they were North London and we were South London. Same went for West Ham (East London) and Arsenal (North London with a twist).

When we went to away games up north, the locals absolutely hated us merely because we came from London, and we hated them because they were a bunch of northern c*nts, which was fair enough.

Most Chelsea fans who went to away games on Merseyside came away with an extreme hatred of scousers, who were a cowardly bunch of c*nts who never had the bottle to fight our mob, but attacked non-hooligans and women with knives. That hatred has never left us. Liverpool fans hate us merely because we have had so much more success than them over the last few years (and long may it continue!), and we hate them for their cowardice and gobbiness.

Back in the 60's & 70's (again), QPR and Fulham were arch rivals, they hated each other. They were normally in and around the 2nd Division at that time, and hardly ever played against us. However, whenever Chelsea did play either of them away, their home ends were left totally empty and we'd just walk in and take it over, they were terrified of us. Sadly, now that the good old fisticuffs has been totally outlawed, they've crept back in and think that they're our main rivals, f*ckin' dreamers. West London tribal rivalry that doesn't really exist.

Chelsea v Millwall was always south-west London versus south-east London - quite a few of us knew each other. Charlton, Crystal Palace & Orient never counted, they were all w*nkers.

Obviously there was similar rivalry all over the country, it's been going on for over 50 years.

Have to agree on the geographical bit, it gives me the hump when they call our games against QPR a West London derby. QPR V Brentford is the West London derby whereas us v Fulham is the South West London derby.

[Scott]

What's wrong with tribalism"

[Zola's Love Child]

Good thread - I've had in and out thoughts for a while about this kind of thing.

First up, I don't think club specific forums are necessarily bad things, however I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think they pushed fans in a more insulated world where only their team exists. Obviously there are more well known communities (well, specifically RAWK) who seem to be a little more extreme with some of their members than say our board, or Redcafe.

For me, forums have allowed fans to recreate their Saturday lunchtime, pre-match pint with the boys, 24 hours a day, all through the week. Subjects are analysed to death, and often as topics become slightly more stale, members will get bored and embark on a wind up, or start reverting to more extreme positions to get attention.

We're all tribal to a degree - however do I hear things on this board that I wouldn't hear down the pub before or after a game - certainly not, and until I do I wouldn't class the tribalism supported on here as a problem. If anything, it gives fans a chance to soberly address the issues that revolve around their club. I can't imagine some of the better discussions (for example about the future of Stamford Bridge, off the field controversies and the use of the word "Y*d") would be as insightful as they were on the forum, if left to the weekly football chat down the pub.

Lets just be thankful we don't have any of the maniacs from RAWK over here!

[KrazyTea]

I don't think they increase tribalism but I would certainly suggest that they do increase the willingness of people to say whats on their mind without as much of a filter. You see the same thing on news sites that allow messages or postings of sorts when it comes to issues like race as well. Theres always some nuts that let their mouths run into the internet with vile that is only amplified. I think the reality is that it is the effects of the internet that allow these kinds of emotions to be purely channeled, whether it is fandominium, partisan politic rhetoric, or any kinds of tribalism or racism.

[rahul]

I have many friends in real life who are United and Arse fans and we like a little banter here and there but mostly when we're not playing each other or in the league where their team could be affected, they are pretty supportive of Chelsea (especially against Barca, we all hate Barca) and we enjoy the games together.

The point is that in real life we know the person as a person first and a football supporter later while on internet forums we paint everyone with the same brush. Even in real life we'd talk about a fan group in general being such and such without knowing anyone from the group but once you know them you realize how wrong you were.

[rougvie13]

its all about tribalism , always has been , you pick your team (tribe) nail your colours to the mast and live with everything your tribe puts you through , thats the deal

[Valerie]

Supporting a club and slagging off all others is perfectly human (and you could even argue some animals display the same behaviour). Social psychology is devoted to the subject. It's about wanting to belong in a group to the exclusion of others who feel differently. Some people go to extremes, but on the whole it has existed at least since man decided he didn't want to be Gareth Bale anymore, probably even before that.

No need to panic about tribalism in my view, plus it's a way to feel morally superior over the extremists among us

Edited May 5, 2012 by Valerie

[Mike Carefree]

Tribalism is great for any of us that enjoy it..For those who dont, good on ya..Why tho would anyone sit around WORRYING about it..Indulge or dont ..IT IS THAT EASY

[moi]

I read it as 'tribadism' and when I entered the topic, I felt most let down.

...deflated, were you, Mod?

[Zola]

Somewhat, but maybe not.

I have a mate who is so tribal for utd it is unbelievable, he rarely watches other teams for their footy etc, only his own.

On the night of the champions league vs Barca, in Spain he texted and wished all the best and said he really hoped we beat them. whether that's rooted from pain of losing to them twice in champions league finals i don't know.

I was also watching the game among with two utd fans and a few neutrals, all of whom were rooting for chelsea really.. I got texts from a few utd fans saying well done in a roundabout way. None from lolpool fans.

I think the vast majority of people don't like our club, neutrals even somewhat turn their noses up at us. our semi final has shown us in new light for our character, dogged determination and undeniable talent that we love.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Zola

[Carloseyebrow]

Being part of Chelsea is my tribe. Forums don't make me feel anymore or any less tribal. I'm un-bothered by other teams and their fans or forums for a simple reason they mean nothing to me. Now of course I will get into slagging with other fans and thats all part of it.

Here is an example of why I pay little attention to other fans. 6 games ago in the CL , Utd fans (and it was only these) were saying Cavani , Lavezzi , Hamsik are going to destroy you. 4 games ago in the CL , again Utd fans were telling me benfica were going to beat us. Onto Barcelona and you know where this is going. On the night I had a nice few messages from Utd (and Pool) fans saying c'mon Chelsea. Back at work the next day and Bayern Munich are going to destroy us , now thats not tribalism , its be-grudgery.

Tribal ? Absolutely. Be-grudgery ? I don't have that in me , and I feel better for it.

[zippy]

Tbh I prefer to spend time on my favourite general football forum than on generic Bayern forums. There are a couple of Bayern forums in English too but these are inhabited to about 99% by bandwagon jumping, irritating arseholes who would have difficulty finding Munich, or for that matter Germany, on a map.

The vast majority have never seen us play and are not what I would call supporters. I never use these sites as I have nothing to say to those who do. There are a couple of decent German language Bayern forums but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread on specific club sites there isn't always the same level of banter because everyone is often in agreement.

Edited May 5, 2012 by zippy

[Hitsu]

I think the big difference with the internet age now is you get a lot of supporters who aren't natives of the country. Like myself for example, being in Australia it doesn't matter to me how the other english teams fare in europe as I've got no ties to the country or sense of pride on England's achievements. Although on a side note, one strange thing I've noticed in Australia is you get a lot of wannabe "ultras", the guys who've looked up all the chants online or read about the hatreds and try to act like they're part of the hooligan faithful even though they've never been outside of Australia, which does make me cringe a fair bit to be honest.

[Zeta]

They certainly do, and not just towards other fans. If you say anything even remotely critical of the club or the club's fans, etc... you get jumped on. It's pretty pathetic sometimes.

[Myles_91]

Good post Eggy.

The answer to your question is Yes in my view.

I've said for a while now being a supporter is different to being a fan, No offence but if you aren't local or go to games and embrace the culture of the club your outlook can't be the same as someone who has. Football has gone global now. If you are a Chelsea fan from Nairobi the likelihood is you won't know any West Ham or Tottenham fans let alone be able to hate them, hence why hating Man Utd or Liverpool just becomes the easier option.

Social Networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter act as a platform for fans to spread their tribalistic views.

I happen to live with an Arsenal fan from Ireland who has never been to the Emirates or Highbury and bases his entire views and opinions based on an Arsenal blog he reads each week. He says he hates Tottenham fans despite not knowing a single one, and believes the myth that Spurs fans are all Jewish despite the fact Arsenal have more Jewish fans than Spurs do.

Fans learn this sort of tribalism from us - the supporters and more often not misunderstand the culture of the club hence why footballing rivalries almost get lost or diluted. The amount of Chelsea fans I see Under 21 saying they hate QPR for instance is unbelievable bearing in mind 12 months ago they probably hadn't even heard of them, Fulham never has been a derby to us either but often some fans claim it is and hype it up to be something big.

I believe there is a huge superficiality about some forums and social networking sites which adds to the tribalism people are talking about. I personally love going to the games and the rivalry/tension when we go to WHL or Upton Park but unless you've experienced it, it's far different from the superficial idea forums etc create.

[moi]

They certainly do, and not just towards other fans. If you say anything even remotely critical of the club or the club's fans, etc... you get jumped on. It's pretty pathetic sometimes.

If you are talking about the Shed End forums, that is not true. Constructive criticism has always been welcome here. What is less welcome is the knee-jerk reaction from some, who are baying for blood the minute a member of the team fails to perform like a world champion.