Can CFC rivalries really change?

[Myles_91]

Following on from the Liverpool thread I thought it would be putting the question out there.

What is most people's definition of an actual rivalry?

My opinion is that rivalry is different to just out and out hatred. We as a club hate Spurs but can we really class them as a rival in terms of competing for trophies/honours like we can with United or Liverpool? And can Leeds nowadays really be classed as an out and out rival?

Rivalry is by definition "Competition for the same objective or for superiority in the same field.".

Now of course in the 60s/70s in particular we had a strong rivalry with Leeds. To this day they still sing about us. The rivalries with Spurs and West Ham need no explaining. I'd say Arsenal may be a newer thing.

Is a rivalry City/Liverpool/United or is it Arsenal/West Ham/Spurs in your opinion?

Personally I only view Spurs/West Ham/Arsenal as rivals and to a much lesser extent Millwall/Leeds but I'm just putting the question out there

[Beerqueen]

Hmm on the one hand you define rivalry as competing for the same objective and then in the next breathe you say you only view Spurs/West Ham/Arsenal and to a lesser extent Millwall and Leeds which contradicts what you've just said. Millwall Leeds and West Ham are certainly not competing for the same objective - Arsenal keep looking like they might but in reality don't and Spurs did this season but probably won't again! Liverpool haven't realistically competed for a while and I hope this continues. So, given that our objectives are surely the prem and CL, our true English rivals by that definition are surely Man City and Man U.

Hatred is something else altogether.

[BumsteadCFC]

Its complicated in my opinion, I'll give a shot at providing my definition:

Rivalries do to an extent boil down to the local derby component, in other words geographical proximity, but locality is not the only means of determining a rival otherwise Brentford would be considered our rivals. Amongst London clubs I would suggest that we have our biggest rivalry with Spurs (due to historical encounters 1967, 1975, 1982 etc.). They are hands down our biggest rivals. Thereafter I would put Arsenal second followed by West Ham. What has always taken the edge off the Arsenal and West Ham rivalries in my eyes is that they also strongly dislike Spurs so their is that element of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" at play, for example I always support Arsenal in the North London derby. Other than that I don't class any other London club as worthy of being considered our rivals, perhaps the likes of QPR and Fulham consider us their biggest rivals but most Chelsea fans would not pay them the same level of respect. Its no coincidence that the aforementioned trio are the biggest 3 clubs in London (ourselves excepted). You are just not likely to consider a club as a rival to you if that club is much smaller.

Then you have the national rivalries. Of course Leeds is the historic rival based on our encounters with them in the late 60s, early 70s. We have not played them in a decade and I would suggest that in their absence Liverpool have become the new Leeds so to speak. The mid 00s encounters are more or less the equivalent of the aforementioned Leeds-Chelsea tussles in the 60s/70s. Then you have other history with them such as the 3 Cup knockouts in 78, 82 and 97, them winning the league at Stamford Bridge in 1986, Dean Saunders ending Paul Elliot's career and so on. Also, Liverpool are just a very easy to club to dislike what with their entitled and deluded fanbase, arrogance and the Heysel disaster where they not only killed many Juventus fans but in the process got English clubs banned from Europe and cost us a couple of European campaigns in the process. To add further salt to the wounds our fans were blamed in some quarters for the Heysel disaster.

Man United are of course our rivals, its not as if I need to eloborate on that.

So, to conclude for me, my rivals, in order:

1. Spurs,

2. Liverpool,

3. United,

daylight

4. Arsenal,

5. West Ham,

6. Leeds (lapsed, maybe will enjoy a renaissance if they get promoted).

Edited June 20, 2012 by BumsteadCFC

[Myles_91]

Its complicated in my opinion, I'll give a shot at providing my definition:

Rivalries do to an extent boil down to the local derby component, in other words geographical proximity, but locality is not the only means of determining a rival otherwise Brentford would be considered our rivals. Amongst London clubs I would suggest that we have our biggest rivalry with Spurs (due to historical encounters 1967, 1975, 1982 etc.). They are hands down our biggest rivals. Thereafter I would put Arsenal second followed by West Ham. What has always taken the edge off the Arsenal and West Ham rivalries in my eyes is that they also strongly dislike Spurs so their is that element of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" at play, for example I always support Arsenal in the North London derby. Other than that I don't class any other London club as worthy of being considered our rivals, perhaps the likes of QPR and Fulham consider us their biggest rivals but most Chelsea fans would not pay them the same level of respect. Its no coincidence that the aforementioned trio are the biggest 3 clubs in London (ourselves excepted). You are just not likely to consider a club as a rival to you if that club is much smaller.

Then you have the national rivalries. Of course Leeds is the historic rival based on our encounters with them in the late 60s, early 70s. We have not played them in a decade and I would suggest that in their absence Liverpool have become the new Leeds so to speak. The mid 00s encounters are more or less the equivalent of the aforementioned Leeds-Chelsea tussles in the 60s/70s. Then you have other history with them such as the 3 Cup knockouts in 78, 82 and 97, them winning the league at Stamford Bridge in 1986, Dean Saunders ending Paul Elliot's career and so on. Also, Liverpool are just a very easy to club to dislike what with their entitled and deluded fanbase, arrogance and the Heysel disaster where they not only killed many Juventus fans but in the process got English clubs banned from Europe and cost us a couple of European campaigns in the process. To add further salt to the wounds our fans were blamed in some quarters for the Heysel disaster.

Man United are of course our rivals, its not as if I need to eloborate on that.

So, to conclude for me, my rivals, in order:

1. Spurs,

2. Liverpool,

3. United,

daylight

4. Arsenal,

5. West Ham,

6. Leeds (lapsed, maybe will enjoy a renaissance if they get promoted).

Interesting.

Personally I would have ranked

1. Spurs

2. Arsenal

3. West Ham

4. Liverpool

5. United

6. Leeds

Maybe for me it's different, but growing up around Gooners (far more so than Spurs) and the fact we often had to battle Arsenal for the title and league position meant I often swallowed my pride in those games. Hate West Ham but I always root for them against Spurs.

It seems from what you are saying rivalries can't just fall into one category.

[BernardLambourde]

I think it all depends on whether or not the rivalry or 'hatred' is reciprocated. Chelsea hate Spurs....and Spurs hate Chelsea....so it is a rivalry. Likewise with Leeds, United in more recent years, Liverpool and Arsenal. Fulham and QPR will never be a proper rivalry as long as Chelsea couldn't give a flying bumhole about either of those clubs. The playing side also comes into it as this can intensify an existing rivalry....or even create a new one. But some fixtures will remain a strong rilvalry regardless. If we played Leeds tomorrow, both sets of fans would be desperate not to lose. For an example, think of United and City before City's new found wealth. You can't tell me it wasn't a strong rilvary before due to the clubs having different on field aspirations. They still hated eachother and were desperate to win the derby.

[BumsteadCFC]

Interesting.

Personally I would have ranked

1. Spurs

2. Arsenal

3. West Ham

4. Liverpool

5. United

6. Leeds

Maybe for me it's different, but growing up around Gooners (far more so than Spurs) and the fact we often had to battle Arsenal for the title and league position meant I often swallowed my pride in those games. Hate West Ham but I always root for them against Spurs.

It seems from what you are saying rivalries can't just fall into one category.

These things will always, in my opinion be somewhat personal. For example, I am 33 and went to primary school in the 80's when all the gloryhunters on the playground were Liverpool fans, so from a young age I had contempt for Liverpool. I remember in our first season back in the 1st division in 1989/90 we got thrashed by Liverpool home and away and I can recall the stick from the Liverpool "supporters". By secondary school and into the mid 90's the United plastics seemed to predominate.

I think thats a big part of why I dislike United and Liverpool, too many gloryhunting knobs with southern accents. At least most of the West Ham, Spurs and to a lesser extent Arsenal fans I grew up with were real fans and not gloryboys.

[BernardLambourde]

These things will always, in my opinion be somewhat personal. For example, I am 33 and went to primary school in the 80's when all the gloryhunters on the playground were Liverpool fans, so from a young age I had contempt for Liverpool. I remember in our first season back in the 1st division in 1989/90 we got thrashed by Liverpool home and away and I can recall the stick from the Liverpool "supporters". By secondary school and into the mid 90's the United plastics seemed to predominate.

I think thats a big part of why I dislike United and Liverpool, too many gloryhunting knobs with southern accents. At least most of the West Ham, Spurs and to a lesser extent Arsenal fans I grew up with were real fans and not gloryboys.

I used to loathe both United and Pool for the very same reason......but now the plastics down South who have never set foot in the cities, let alone stadiums of United and Liverpool don't bother me in the slightest. I don't consider them supporters and don't really talk to them about football as I have utter contempt for them.

[Fast Eddie]

I think thats a big part of why I dislike United and Liverpool, too many gloryhunting knobs with southern accents. At least most of the West Ham, Spurs and to a lesser extent Arsenal fans I grew up with were real fans and not gloryboys.

Arsenal have more than their fair proportion of glory hunters, old and young imo... ;-)

[Fast Eddie]

6. Leeds (lapsed, maybe will enjoy a renaissance if they get promoted).

Yes lapsed but always be a fun one if they get promoted - expect a few to come out of the woodwork for that one, if they can get a ticket... :-)

[BlueBeard]

I think it all depends on a persons age - younger fans will hate Liverpool & United for obvious reasons, while us older fans still hold a deep hatred for Tottenham and Leeds. Don't get me wrong, we hated everyone else too, though to a lesser degree

Modern rivalries and hatreds are mainly based on the football clubs and players involved, whereas in the old days it was the opposition fans we hated - and this was reflected on the terraces at many a ground.

[Tea Bar Boy]

I agree with Bluebeard it’s also has a lot to do with peoples age and where they were brought up . The Leeds bit I never really got as I wasn’t going to games late 60’s early 70’s .

The 2 constants are Rottenham and Liverscum have and always will hate both teams and fans with a passion . Rottenham because everyone round my way supported them as they were the glamour tem of the time in the early 80’s . Liverscum because they were winning everything but never had any respect for them or their fans.

Don’t really see Le Arse as rivals got a lot of gooner mates who are a lot more realistic than the rottenham lot .

Never could find it to hate Man Utd . When did the Cockney Reds become Southern Ponces ?? I always admired the numbers they used to bring everywhere in the late 70’s 80’s when they were winning jack and they always had a very big and strong support base in London.