Surprised how strong Belgium look

[Davey Baby]

Dembele, Fellaini, Hazard, Lukaku, Courtois, Kompany, Witsel, Vermaelen, Defour, Mertens, Van Buyten, Vertonghen, De Bruyne ..

That's just off the top of my head. Have I left anyone out .. ?

What are they putting in the water in Belgium (population only twice the size of Scotland's) .. ?

What the f**k .. ?

Edited August 29, 2012 by ethicalstrategy
Changed thread title to something vaguely meaningful!

[bluelion111]

Yep, Belgium have randomly grown a team that could potentially win the big tournaments.

[Lane]

Ive noticed that a while ago. I dont know if they had luck with all that talent lining up in the same generation, or theyve started investing in football, but either way their NT is fuking stacked

in 3-4 years their team will be absolutely ridiculous

Edited August 29, 2012 by Lane

[That Boy Brandinho]

Taking the size of Belgium into consideration, it's very impressive, but it's not like they'll ever have more talent than Germany or Brasil or Spain or the other powerhouses of world football. I remember a few years ago when people were getting really excited about all the young talent Bosnia & Herzegovina were developing, but to say they never became a force would be an understatement. Granted, Belgium looks to have better depth of talent, but Dzeko, Pjanic, Salihovic, Ibisevic and Begovic were all very well regarded.

[ace]

Kevin Mirallas (just signed for Everton) is another Belgian, and then you need to take into account the younger Hazard and the three Musonda brothers we bought, at least one of which is supposed to be quite the prospect, too.

Due to their historical coefficient though (or whatever it is that determines groups for qualifying), they keep getting hard groups to qualify for major tournaments. While there is no Germany or Spain in their WC group, they have to compete with Serbia and Croatia, as well as Scotland, Macedonia, and Wales. They finished 3rd in their Euro group, behind Germany and Turkey.

Edited August 29, 2012 by ace

[jc_cfc]

Alderweireld another central defender, wouldn't surprise me if Ajax lost him too in the next year or so.

[Castiel]

Well look at Spain's talent at the moment and previous Brazil teams. Its not uncommon for golden generations to crop up, strange as it may be.

[Davey Baby]

Kevin Mirallas (just signed for Everton) is another Belgian ..

Just scored two goals for them tonight.

Taking the size of Belgium into consideration, it's very impressive, but it's not like they'll ever have more talent than Germany or Brasil or Spain or the other powerhouses of world football. I remember a few years ago when people were getting really excited about all the young talent Bosnia & Herzegovina were developing, but to say they never became a force would be an understatement. Granted, Belgium looks to have better depth of talent, but Dzeko, Pjanic, Salihovic, Ibisevic and Begovic were all very well regarded.

Disagree with you here. Spain have a golden generation but it wasn't always thus, and vice versa for a nation like France, who don't have half the quality they used to have, when Zidane, Henry, Vieira etc were in their pomp. Before this current crop, Germany had a dearth of talent. To say that a smaller nation like Belgium will never have more talent at any one time than a traditional powerhouse is incorrect in my opinion.

England have 5 times the population of Belgium, it has the most popular league in the world, it is where football was invented, WC winners in 66. Not sure if we're a traditional powerhouse but we're certainly a big name and Belgium certainly have a better crop at the moment, a crop which I don't think you can compare to Bosnia & Herzegovina's of a few years ago. I understand your point but Hazard, Courtois, Kompany etc (to name 3 of a very long list) are very unlikely to have anything but illustrious careers. We're talking a very high level here. Belgium could do at least as well as Portugal in recent years, a similarly small country, but one far more renowned for producing footballers.

[The Moos]

Does seem like they have some really good players on most positions, but what about RB and LB? Are they great there as well or is that their weak spot?

[That Boy Brandinho]

Disagree with you here. Spain have a golden generation but it wasn't always thus, and vice versa for a nation like France, who don't have half the quality they used to have, when Zidane, Henry, Vieira etc were in their pomp. Before this current crop, Germany had a dearth of talent. To say that a smaller nation like Belgium will never have more talent at any one time than a traditional powerhouse is incorrect in my opinion.

England have 5 times the population of Belgium, it has the most popular league in the world, it is where football was invented, WC winners in 66. Not sure if we're a traditional powerhouse but we're certainly a big name and Belgium certainly have a better crop at the moment, a crop which I don't think you can compare to Bosnia & Herzegovina's of a few years ago. I understand your point but Hazard, Courtois, Kompany etc (to name 3 of a very long list) are very unlikely to have anything but illustrious careers. We're talking a very high level here. Belgium could do at least as well as Portugal in recent years, a similarly small country, but one far more renowned for producing footballers.

I think there's a disconnect between your argument and mine. You seem to be using talent and results interchangeably throughout your argument, whereas I was referring only to talent. For example, Spain have generally had lots of talent. This may be their golden generation, but it's not as if it sprang up out of nowhere. Spain didn't have the results and thus were labeled perennial underachievers, but the talent was there on an individual level prior to this generation. Germany certainly didn't have a "dearth" of talent before this current generation. There was a brief period of time including the World Cup in '98 and the European Championship in '00 where an aging German team achieved very little, but that was the same generation that won the European Championship in '96. The following years brought the likes of Michael Ballack, Torsten Frings, Jens Lehmann, Miroslav Klose, Lukas Podolski, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Philipp Lahm, etc. The current generation of young German talent is the best we've had in decades. England is an interesting situation, because I think there are serious problems with the way English talent is developed rather than there being a lack of talent itself. Belgium doesn't suffer from the same backwards mentality that retards the progress of creative players. A more nurturing environment for skill and intelligence over raw athleticism and toughness would pay dividends for England, but I digress.

Back to Belgium. Let's say that this is indeed Belgium's golden generation. From your list, I see two players that have the potential to be world class - Hazard and Courtois. There are a number of players that are already quite good, such as Fellaini, Vermaelen and Kompany, but who I don't believe have much room to improve. Furthermore, there are players like Lukaku, Witsel and de Bruyne who have the potential to join the second tier of players, but aren't likely to be more than that. The likes of Defour and Mertens are decent players that every big country has plenty of equivalents to. They'll never be special. The key here is that you've just about exhausted the list of exciting young Belgians whereas a list of young Germans or Brasilians with similar ability would be much, much longer. There are players like Sidney Sam, who are barely on our radar for a spot with the senior team, that would have made your list if they were Belgian. There's a tendency to make a bigger deal out of the quality of talent because you wouldn't expect it from a nation as small as Belgium, which was the primary comparison I was making with Bosnia & Herzegovina.

The only aspect of my argument that I might reconsider is saying "never". That's a word that perhaps I have a tendency to overuse when what I really mean to say is that something is extraordinarily unlikely. Could Belgium, for a period of one or two years, field a more talented national team than, for example, Germany? Yes, it's technically possible. Every one of those players you named could meet or exceed expectations, Germany could have significant injuries, most of our young players could fail to reach their potential for one reason or another, etc. However, that's a scenario that'd require so many unlikely events to happen that I have trouble even imagining it. Of course, we'd still have the issue of whether we're discussing results or talent. Belgium could go on a great run and win a major tournament, but that wouldn't mean they necessarily have more talent than the countries they've beaten.

Edited August 30, 2012 by That Boy Brandinho

[jc_cfc]

I think there's a disconnect between your argument and mine. You seem to be using talent and results interchangeably throughout your argument, whereas I was referring only to talent. For example, Spain have generally had lots of talent. This may be their golden generation, but it's not as if it sprang up out of nowhere. Spain didn't have the results and thus were labeled perennial underachievers, but the talent was there on an individual level prior to this generation. Germany certainly didn't have a "dearth" of talent before this current generation. There was a brief period of time including the World Cup in '98 and the European Championship in '00 where an aging German team achieved very little, but that was the same generation that won the European Championship in '96. The following years brought the likes of Michael Ballack, Torsten Frings, Jens Lehmann, Miroslav Klose, Lukas Podolski, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Philipp Lahm, etc. The current generation of young German talent is the best we've had in decades. England is an interesting situation, because I think there are serious problems with the way English talent is developed rather than there being a lack of talent itself. Belgium doesn't suffer from the same backwards mentality that retards the progress of creative players. A more nurturing environment for skill and intelligence over raw athleticism and toughness would pay dividends for England, but I digress.

Back to Belgium. Let's say that this is indeed Belgium's golden generation. From your list, I see two players that have the potential to be world class - Hazard and Courtois. There are a number of players that are already quite good, such as Fellaini, Vermaelen and Kompany, but who I don't believe have much room to improve. Furthermore, there are players like Lukaku, Witsel and de Bruyne who have the potential to join the second tier of players, but aren't likely to be more than that. The likes of Defour and Mertens are decent players that every big country has plenty of equivalents to. They'll never be special. The key here is that you've just about exhausted the list of exciting young Belgians whereas a list of young Germans or Brasilians with similar ability would be much, much longer. There are players like Sidney Sam, who are barely on our radar for a spot with the senior team, that would have made your list if they were Belgian. There's a tendency to make a bigger deal out of the quality of talent because you wouldn't expect it from a nation as small as Belgium, which was the primary comparison I was making with Bosnia & Herzegovina.

The only aspect of my argument that I might reconsider is saying "never". That's a word that perhaps I have a tendency to overuse when what I really mean to say is that something is extraordinarily unlikely. Could Belgium, for a period of one or two years, field a more talented national team than, for example, Germany? Yes, it's technically possible. Every one of those players you named could meet or exceed expectations, Germany could have significant injuries, most of our young players could fail to reach their potential for one reason or another, etc. However, that's a scenario that'd require so many unlikely events to happen that I have trouble even imagining it. Of course, we'd still have the issue of whether we're discussing results or talent. Belgium could go on a great run and win a major tournament, but that wouldn't mean they necessarily have more talent than the countries they've beaten.

Have to disagree, still think Fellaini will improve a lot as player as he keeps maturing, the gulf now since he came to the league is pretty big, he came into this league giving away yellow's every game, already this season we've seen a player who is incredibly and somewhat suprisingly versatile, a player who can dominate & win games off his own terms & a player who a big club will inevitably come after eventually. I see Witsel in the first tier with Hazard & Courtois, the guy has all the traits to be an incredible central player who can play behind the Striker if need be, I've watched this guy play quite a bit and his composure & brain is one of the best in Portugal, passing is truly excellent. For me, Kompany has to be one of the best in the world, (some may see this as an over statement, obviously) he's good in the air, he's quick for a centre half, he's physical & he's a leader, I remember watching him play against us a few years ago as a holding player & thinking, why have they signed him? He looked lost, slow & confused, 3 years on & he's the captain of City, and like Fellaini the improvement in 3 seasons or so is phenomenal, I see him in the top tier already. Lukaku is not rateable for me at the moment, the guy COULD be one of the best in the world, with the attributes he has at just 19, but I think it's way to early to rate/judge what he could be properly.

[Zola]

Better team than England

Edited August 30, 2012 by Zola

[Davey Baby]

Spain didn't have the results and thus were labeled perennial underachievers, but the talent was there on an individual level prior to this generation. Germany certainly didn't have a "dearth" of talent before this current generation.

I stick to my guns on Spain. This generation is far more exceptional than previous generations. Countries go through bad phases in terms of producing players, even the powerhouses, and the reason Germany produced a new young crop is because, as far as I know, they were concerned about the lack of talent coming through so changed their structure. I remember some really crap players representing Germany in the not-so-distant past, especially in the attacking positions, and Ballack was their most creative outlet for a while, and he wasn't particularly creative. Indeed, he was widely regarded as their only world-class player. Of course being German, that didn't mean you could ever write them off in tournaments, but personnel-wise, they weren't at their strongest, far from it.

Regarding Belgium, like JC above, I think you're underestimating the likes of Kompany, who is genuinely world-class and would walk into most teams if not all. I also agree with him on Fellaini, Witsel etc. Obviously they are not going to produce as many players as the larger nations, that goes without saying, but there is every chance, come the next WC or Euros, they will be fielding a stronger team than the likes of Italy, Holland, England or France, and that's pretty impressive.

[That Boy Brandinho]

I stick to my guns on Spain. This generation is far more exceptional than previous generations. Countries go through bad phases in terms of producing players, even the powerhouses, and the reason Germany produced a new young crop is because, as far as I know, they were concerned about the lack of talent coming through so changed their structure. I remember some really crap players representing Germany in the not-so-distant past, especially in the attacking positions, and Ballack was their most creative outlet for a while, and he wasn't particularly creative. Indeed, he was widely regarded as their only world-class player. Of course being German, that didn't mean you could ever write them off in tournaments, but personnel-wise, they weren't at their strongest, far from it.

Regarding Belgium, like JC above, I think you're underestimating the likes of Kompany, who is genuinely world-class and would walk into most teams if not all. I also agree with him on Fellaini, Witsel etc. Obviously they are not going to produce as many players as the larger nations, that goes without saying, but there is every chance, come the next WC or Euros, they will be fielding a stronger team than the likes of Italy, Holland, England or France, and that's pretty impressive.

Of course this Spanish generation is far more exceptional than previous generations. It's one of the most exceptional generations that any country has ever produced in the history of football. The combination of talent and results are absolutely staggering. That doesn't mean they were fielding poor talent before. You can hardly compare Belgium's current generation to Spain's. Maybe in relativistic terms, ie, this Belgian generation might be to previous Belgian generations what this Spanish generation is to previous Spanish generations, but from an absolute perspective, the Spanish quality is much higher in both examples.

As for Germany, the worst result that we've produced in recent memory came during Euro 2000, but that was due in large part to the retirement of players like Klinsmann, Möller, Kohler, Thon, Helmer, Reuter, etc. Matthäus and Häßler stuck around for one last tournament, but it was obvious that they were at the end. You remember there being some crap players representing Germany because that's an absurd amount of turnover in a relatively short period of time and was some inefficiency at the time in our youth programs. The next generation still produced plenty of quality players and we've only gotten stronger since.

Regarding Belgium, I'm not sure what would possess someone to say that Axel Witsel has world class potential, but I certainly haven't seen it. Whatever standards we apply to Belgian players must also be applied to the players from other countries around the world. As such, I can say that I'm very excited about the glut of potentially world class Germans who have suddenly materialized. I don't disagree that come the next World Cup or European Championship, Belgium might field a stronger squad than those countries that you named. However, they might not. Holland and France aren't exactly bereft of talented young players themselves and they both have a stronger veteran base to augment that talent.

Edited August 30, 2012 by That Boy Brandinho

[Davey Baby]

Okay, first qualifying game for 2014, Belgium away to Wales ..

Belgium lined up thus ..

Courtois, Guillaume Gillet, Vermaelen, Kompany, Vertonghen, Witsel, Dembele, Hazard, Mertens, Mirallas, Fellaini.

After 65 minutes they had four Chelsea players on the pitch, with De Bruyne and Lukaku having come on.

A comfortable 2-0 victory, helped by the fact Wales were reduced to 10 men after 25 mins.

Goals scored by Komapny and Vertonghen (a peach). Mertens engaged in a bit of showboating at the end, playing a pass to Hazard with his back.

Our boys? Well, Courtois had nothing to do, then bam, Bale unleashed a shot and he produced a great save. Hazard played well within himself, always passing rather than taking anyone on, Lukaku looked raw and De Bruyne huffed and puffed.

Roll on 2014. Watch out, here they come.

[Lane]

Okay, first qualifying game for 2014, Belgium away to Wales ..

Belgium lined up thus ..

Courtois, Guillaume Gillet, Vermaelen, Kompany, Vertonghen, Witsel, Dembele, Hazard, Mertens, Mirallas, Fellaini.

After 65 minutes they had four Chelsea players on the pitch, with De Bruyne and Lukaku having come on.

A comfortable 2-0 victory, helped by the fact Wales were reduced to 10 men after 25 mins.

Goals scored by Komapny and Vertonghen (a peach). Mertens engaged in a bit of showboating at the end, playing a pass to Hazard with his back.

Our boys? Well, Courtois had nothing to do, then bam, Bale unleashed a shot and he produced a great save. Hazard played well within himself, always passing rather than taking anyone on, Lukaku looked raw and De Bruyne huffed and puffed.

Roll on 2014. Watch out, here they come.

to me it looked like belgium were in cruise control throughout the match. i think they can show a whole lot more than they did yesterday

[ace]

to me it looked like belgium were in cruise control throughout the match. i think they can show a whole lot more than they did yesterday

I am very excited to see how the game this week against Croatia goes. Serbia and Croatia are both good teams, but at least Belgium doesn't have a Germany or Spain in their group this go around.

[Guest RFC_CFC]

They are jam packed with talent but from what I have seen they don't really play as a team tbh.

They have so much ability and potential but they need to work on the basics and they could be a real force!

[SirWadzman]

Don't really like the way Hazard plays for Belgium. A player like him should be using his speed and agility to his advantage by taking players on more than he currently does.

[ace]

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/that-stayed-hit-guillaume-gillet-belgium-v-croatia/#.UE-XF25bisM.twitter

It helps when they have guys that can do this.

(Gillet goal v. Croatia today)

[Davey Baby]

Didn't see the game but not a great result for Belgium. However they'll be happy to have salvaged a point.

Looking at their starting line-up compared to the game against Wales, Benteke (Villa's new £7m striker) came in for Miralles (Everton's new £6m striker), and Fellaini was dropped and replaced by Defour.

De Bruyne came on as sub but Lukaku remained on the bench.

That's it for now folks ..

[Lane]

Didn't see the game but not a great result for Belgium. However they'll be happy to have salvaged a point.

i heard they absolutely wrecked croatia, but couldnt finish to save their life

[ace]

Didn't see the game but not a great result for Belgium. However they'll be happy to have salvaged a point.

I know FIFA rankings are pants, but Croatia is the 9th ranked team in that poll and today featured Modric, Perisic, Srna, Jelavic, and Mandzukic, so they are no slouches.

[Damnation]

I know FIFA rankings are pants, but Croatia is the 9th ranked team in that poll and today featured Modric, Perisic, Srna, Jelavic, and Mandzukic, so they are no slouches.

They also gave a hard time to Italy on the Euros. They are a hard team to beat.

[Remodez]

Don't see them being a major threat in the future (2014), better teams with better players in the past have failed to live up to the same hype. They don't have any proper strikers and their defence is pretty slow. Who knows though, in a year there could have developed some good strikers and got more depth at the back. None come to mind right now though.

It's teams like Croatia you should worry about, most of their players will be in their prime by the time the tournament kicks off and they have some great defenders and midfielders coming through who will most likely take part as well.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Remodez