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For what it's worth and just to add to the sh*t-storm of rumours according to Mat Law in The Telegraph Jose himself didn't believe Fabregas was 'a rat'. (incidentally that phrase was supposed to have been directed at NON playing staff who Jose believed were leaking info).

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/12060568/Chelsea-news-Jose-Mourinho-and-Cesc-Fabregas-were-allies-not-enemies.html

Yes, but in order for a betrayal to be successul the victim usually has to be unaware(or unable to prove at a minimum) that said person is betraying them.

I'm not going to comment on Cesc in the dressing room, none of us are privy and thus hearsay at best as many have mentioned.

I will point out what we are privy to, however. His on field performances. Yes he was poor and so too most of the team. Not my main issue.

What is, is how Cesc made it clear for anyone who cared to even take a cursory look to see that he just didnt care. Was not invested in the teams performance. This has been mentioned many times but its a clear contrast between Ivanovic's terrible form and Fabregas's terrible (hmm, indifferent perhaps a better word?) form. Once cared, one did not.

So wether he betrayed Mourinho in the dressing room is of little consequence to me as I felt betrayed by Fabregas most games he played.

And if you subscribe to the theory that actions speak louder than words. That we use our tongues to lie but our actions to reveal our true intetnions, then its a good chance you feel Fabregas betrayed Mourinho regardless of his soundbites. Oh, and betrayed anyone else who has a stake in the performance of this team.

but as mentioned, not commenting on what Fabregas has said to anyone, just on how he has carried himself on the pitch when representing this club.

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there are some dangerously unhinged views being aired at the moment.

 

"fabregas is a secret agent for wenger. obviously part of the masterplan was to win the title first... playing the long game, ol' agent cesc. it is what jose would least have expected!"

 

"hazard sat next to someone on a bus. jfk was killed on a bus. well, a car. but that is basically the same thing. coincidence? clearly not"

 

"that doctor was a slut. well, I say a slut, but what I mean is she's female. so really we're splitting hairs. lets cast aspersions about her personal life with literally no evidence having spent the previous two years tossing ourselves off over screengrabs of her doing her job. the slut. you can see she wants it, coquettishly parading that PHD around"

 

"I WAS PERSONALLY BETRAYED BY THE PLAYERS. I spent the entirety of last season telling them to individually and collectively f*ck off on their way to winning the title and THIS is how they repay me? what a bunch of entitled c*nts. get rid of them and bring me new players to support!"

 

"that f*cking doctor. she'll be on celeb big brother next no doubt. the absolute temerity to even consider legal action against a multi-million pound corporate business. the whore"

 

"emenalo offered to resign when jose was appointed. he did this in an attempt to...errr.... stay at the club and undermine the manager? yes. he knew that if he left the club he could be more dangerous. perhaps hide behind the bins and throw a shaken can of tizer ice at him when he goes to collect the morning papers"

 

"well while it would be irresponsible to comment on cesc in the dressing room, I did see him play badly. AND I did see that tim roth show about body language. well, I saw the adverts for it. well, I say saw. they were radio adverts. but I think its fair to say I got the gist. anyway, cesc is a liar and my body language expertise tells us he doesn't care. but I'm not quite brave enough to admit my irrationality or bias so I'm going to couch this comment with the vapour of 'balance' as if that is the same as having actually taken a moment to think clearly for even a second."

 

"emenalo. he sold the players jose didn't want and bought the ones he did. then sold those ones after they didn't get a game. but he once coached a girls team and he didn't sign pogba. that'll explain things"

 

 

 

f*cking hell. the absolute tinfoil hat mentality that has emerged here. and yet people would be so lacking in self awareness as to look at RAWK and laugh at the mawkish wallowing and conspiracy theories they engage in. not one person has explained WHY the players would betray him. what reason they would have for damaging their own careers in this way. it is such a ridiculous notion. 

 

I accept everyone is grieving and we all feel hollowed out but get a hold of yourselves a little eh? I thought the theory of everything was overrated but jesus christ these theories of nothing really really are taking the biscuit.

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there are some dangerously unhinged views being aired at the moment.

"fabregas is a secret agent for wenger. obviously part of the masterplan was to win the title first... playing the long game, ol' agent cesc. it is what jose would least have expected!"

"hazard sat next to someone on a bus. jfk was killed on a bus. well, a car. but that is basically the same thing. coincidence? clearly not"

"that doctor was a slut. well, I say a slut, but what I mean is she's female. so really we're splitting hairs. lets cast aspersions about her personal life with literally no evidence having spent the previous two years tossing ourselves off over screengrabs of her doing her job. the slut. you can see she wants it, coquettishly parading that PHD around"

"I WAS PERSONALLY BETRAYED BY THE PLAYERS. I spent the entirety of last season telling them to individually and collectively f*ck off on their way to winning the title and THIS is how they repay me? what a bunch of entitled c*nts. get rid of them and bring me new players to support!"

"that f*cking doctor. she'll be on celeb big brother next no doubt. the absolute temerity to even consider legal action against a multi-million pound corporate business. the whore"

"emenalo offered to resign when jose was appointed. he did this in an attempt to...errr.... stay at the club and undermine the manager? yes. he knew that if he left the club he could be more dangerous. perhaps hide behind the bins and throw a shaken can of tizer ice at him when he goes to collect the morning papers"

"well while it would be irresponsible to comment on cesc in the dressing room, I did see him play badly. AND I did see that tim roth show about body language. well, I saw the adverts for it. well, I say saw. they were radio adverts. but I think its fair to say I got the gist. anyway, cesc is a liar and my body language expertise tells us he doesn't care. but I'm not quite brave enough to admit my irrationality or bias so I'm going to couch this comment with the vapour of 'balance' as if that is the same as having actually taken a moment to think clearly for even a second."

"emenalo. he sold the players jose didn't want and bought the ones he did. then sold those ones after they didn't get a game. but he once coached a girls team and he didn't sign pogba. that'll explain things"

f*cking hell. the absolute tinfoil hat mentality that has emerged here. and yet people would be so lacking in self awareness as to look at RAWK and laugh at the mawkish wallowing and conspiracy theories they engage in. not one person has explained WHY the players would betray him. what reason they would have for damaging their own careers in this way. it is such a ridiculous notion.

I accept everyone is grieving and we all feel hollowed out but get a hold of yourselves a little eh? I thought the theory of everything was overrated but jesus christ these theories of nothing really really are taking the biscuit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uXu0CD9veu8

1:20. Dont know who Tim Roth is but feel free to look at Cesc's body language and then tell me it takes an expert to see he's not bothered. Zen master, standing there like he doesnt care when clearly he bleeds blue for this club.

I will actually back my points up with evidence, will you? Im curious because of the next point.

Love to see your explanation of how Mourinho told every player to f**k off enroute to the title. Dont worry, I already have my tinfoil hat on so Im sure itll be an easy explanation for you.

PS. If you're going to try and to give belittling advice to people to control themsevles, perhaps refrain from doing so in a uncontrolled page long rant. If you want to give the impression youre better than others (and obviously this is a big part of your character) then you'll have to actually play the part and not just try and talk it. Just my two cents.

Edited by Barry Bridges
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Yes, but in order for a betrayal to be successul the victim usually has to be unaware(or unable to prove at a minimum) that said person is betraying them.

I'm not going to comment on Cesc in the dressing room, none of us are privy and thus hearsay at best as many have mentioned.

I will point out what we are privy to, however. His on field performances. Yes he was poor and so too most of the team. Not my main issue.

What is, is how Cesc made it clear for anyone who cared to even take a cursory look to see that he just didnt care. Was not invested in the teams performance. This has been mentioned many times but its a clear contrast between Ivanovic's terrible form and Fabregas's terrible (hmm, indifferent perhaps a better word?) form. Once cared, one did not.

So wether he betrayed Mourinho in the dressing room is of little consequence to me as I felt betrayed by Fabregas most games he played.

And if you subscribe to the theory that actions speak louder than words. That we use our tongues to lie but our actions to reveal our true intetnions, then its a good chance you feel Fabregas betrayed Mourinho regardless of his soundbites. Oh, and betrayed anyone else who has a stake in the performance of this team.

but as mentioned, not commenting on what Fabregas has said to anyone, just on how he has carried himself on the pitch when representing this club.

Bang on Barry Bridges. That post is right on the money as far as I'm concerned.

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anyone who saw cesc play for Spain against England in a manner which we haven't seen in a Chelsea shirt for most of 2015, will understandably have their doubts over his hunger to play for cfc, let alone Jose

Thing is Brit you could say the same about 6-7 of our players this season and towards the end of last season too. It's not just Cesc but he seems to get it twice as bad just because he played for Arsenal.

Matic for me is a bigger culprit, his decline has been nothing short of baffling. From one of the best defensive midfielders in Europe to what he is today is shocking.

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I think Fabregas needs to look at how pirlo adopted his game to prolong his level at the top. Vidal and marchisio/pogba got into the box and pirlo dictated from deep. I think the days of cesc getting forward are gone, as he doesn't have the speed to get back in time, but like pirlo, and xavi, fabregas has great stamina and would best dictating play from deep.

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there are few more unhinged than you at the moment barry. you might not even be aware of it but logically you're absolutely all over the shop and the hysterical level of entitlement is almost baffling.

 
1:20. Dont know who Tim Roth is but feel free to look at Cesc's body language and then tell me it takes an expert to see he's not bothered. Zen master, standing there like he doesnt care when clearly he bleeds blue for this club.
 
I will actually back my points up with evidence, will you? Im curious because of the next point.

 

 

 
I really, really must stress that this video clip isn't evidence. it is an example of something you think shows the player doesn't care, but it is no more than that. I see a bad defensive player who shouldn't be man marking at corners beaten easily by a more aggressive player, you see evidence that he doesn't care.
 
already that particular part of your argument is over, but I will go further. you drew the comparison between  ivanovic and fabregas. one was merely playing badly, the other something altogether worse.
 
but look at this video
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUAYm-uW24
 
3.46 ivanovic's reaction. in my view basically the same. evidence that he doesn't care? evidence that he's betrayed anyone? not in my opinion. 
 
4.48 look at ivanovic again. loses a challenge with david silva that he is favourite for. 4 seconds later silva is on the edge of the box and ivanovic is basically in the same spot. perhaps evidence of betrayal or that he doesn't care? again, not for me. if there is evidence of anything in your comparison of the two players it is the following:
 
1) you are scapegoating cesc fabregas.
2) you don't know what the word evidence means.
 
 
so to answer the question "will I back up my points with evidence" the answer is no. there is none available. I have made inferences as well as I can do and I readily accept my feelings on what has happened this season are based on those inferences. in fact they hinge on them. I do feel they are solid inferences though and there is a logical through-line that follows them in a way that people who have come to conclusions like yours simply haven't displayed at all.
 
Love to see your explanation of how Mourinho told every player to f**k off enroute to the title. Dont worry, I already have my tinfoil hat on so Im sure itll be an easy explanation for you.

 

 

 
first of all, I have explained what I think has happened and why already. it is an easy explanation. perhaps not easy to accept, but as I say, it is far more credible than anything you (for example) have suggested. 
 
I'm a little disheartened at this dichotomy that you are insistent on creating: either you argue that the players don't care and have betrayed (words you have actually used) or jose "told every player to f*ck off en route to the title" (words I have never used). if you (or anyone reading this) truly believe it is only possible for one thing or another to be the case then stop reading this post, we're all wasting our time.
 
 
this is why I would characterise your responses as hysterical (and I use the word in the pitchfork sense rather than the woody allen sense):
 
the implication that either the players (in various numbers) have betrayed jose and don't care (more or less your view) or that jose has done something terrible to the players to somehow deserve getting sacked (absolutely not my view) actually reveals a lot about the person who presents this dichotomy; it indicates that they actually aren't interested (or maybe aren't ready) in solving the 'mystery' of why our season has gone the way it has (which is what I want to know / think I know). what they want is someone to blame. 
 
They are angry and just want accountability- names in black and white. unfortunately this has lead to a lot of absolutely baffling logical contrivances, confirmation biases and outright gossip to be treated with an undeserved and unearned reverence. I know that a forum is a place to vent as well as discuss but all the same I'm reluctant to see what I believe to be myth becoming fact simply because a lot of people choose to repeat it. and especially when I think it could have a negative effect on the the club I support.
 
 
on that page is a post by me which explains what I think has happened. as I say- I'm inferring. it is guesswork. just like yours. but I think it is much more likely to be close to the truth than your conclusions. firstly because it isn't about finding villains or outing traitors- the villain is circumstance really, and it is hard to get emotional and make an embarrassing bedsheet protest about circumstance.
 
on saturday there were no a4 posters that read "get an accumulation of psychological factors, a misjudged pre season conditioning programme, unrealistic transfer targets, the vagaries of interpersonal sporting group dynamics, external factors such as ill family members, emotional wellbeing,  newborn babies, the ticking clock of time, injuries, the fixture list, the change in expectations and internal staffing politics OUT OF MY CLUB!"
 
secondly I think it is a more credible conclusion because it is relatively plausible. it takes in a lot of factors- some smaller than others- and says that when combined and allowed to snowball things got out of hand. that our bad form took a momentum of its own that became hard to arrest. there is a lot of precedent for that type of thing. 
 
what you (and others) still haven't even tried to offer is a reason why the players would betray the manager en masse. no-one has even attempted to offer one credible reason
 
there is no because in your explanation.
 

PS. If you're going to try and to give belittling advice to people to control themsevles, perhaps refrain from doing so in a uncontrolled page long rant. If you want to give the impression youre better than others (and obviously this is a big part of your character) then you'll have to actually play the part and not just try and talk it. Just my two cents.  
 

 

 

I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to do there. that post was as controlled as this or any of my other posts (insert punchline here). I was trying to highlight the ridiculous and hysterical posturing(that I perceived) by posting in the same fashion. its a rhetorical device.
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there are few more unhinged than you at the moment barry. you might not even be aware of it but logically you're absolutely all over the shop and the hysterical level of entitlement is almost baffling.

I really, really must stress that this video clip isn't evidence. it is an example of something you think shows the player doesn't care, but it is no more than that. I see a bad defensive player who shouldn't be man marking at corners beaten easily by a more aggressive player, you see evidence that he doesn't care.

already that particular part of your argument is over, but I will go further. you drew the comparison between ivanovic and fabregas. one was merely playing badly, the other something altogether worse.

but look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUAYm-uW24

3.46 ivanovic's reaction. in my view basically the same. evidence that he doesn't care? evidence that he's betrayed anyone? not in my opinion.

4.48 look at ivanovic again. loses a challenge with david silva that he is favourite for. 4 seconds later silva is on the edge of the box and ivanovic is basically in the same spot. perhaps evidence of betrayal or that he doesn't care? again, not for me. if there is evidence of anything in your comparison of the two players it is the following:

1) you are scapegoating cesc fabregas.

2) you don't know what the word evidence means.

so to answer the question "will I back up my points with evidence" the answer is no. there is none available. I have made inferences as well as I can do and I readily accept my feelings on what has happened this season are based on those inferences. in fact they hinge on them. I do feel they are solid inferences though and there is a logical through-line that follows them in a way that people who have come to conclusions like yours simply haven't displayed at all.

first of all, I have explained what I think has happened and why already. it is an easy explanation. perhaps not easy to accept, but as I say, it is far more credible than anything you (for example) have suggested.

I'm a little disheartened at this dichotomy that you are insistent on creating: either you argue that the players don't care and have betrayed (words you have actually used) or jose "told every player to f*ck off en route to the title" (words I have never used). if you (or anyone reading this) truly believe it is only possible for one thing or another to be the case then stop reading this post, we're all wasting our time.

this is why I would characterise your responses as hysterical (and I use the word in the pitchfork sense rather than the woody allen sense):

the implication that either the players (in various numbers) have betrayed jose and don't care (more or less your view) or that jose has done something terrible to the players to somehow deserve getting sacked (absolutely not my view) actually reveals a lot about the person who presents this dichotomy; it indicates that they actually aren't interested (or maybe aren't ready) in solving the 'mystery' of why our season has gone the way it has (which is what I want to know / think I know). what they want is someone to blame.

They are angry and just want accountability- names in black and white. unfortunately this has lead to a lot of absolutely baffling logical contrivances, confirmation biases and outright gossip to be treated with an undeserved and unearned reverence. I know that a forum is a place to vent as well as discuss but all the same I'm reluctant to see what I believe to be myth becoming fact simply because a lot of people choose to repeat it. and especially when I think it could have a negative effect on the the club I support.

http://www.theshedend.com/topic/22192-jos%C3%A9-mourinho-confirmed-as-chelsea-manager/page-742

on that page is a post by me which explains what I think has happened. as I say- I'm inferring. it is guesswork. just like yours. but I think it is much more likely to be close to the truth than your conclusions. firstly because it isn't about finding villains or outing traitors- the villain is circumstance really, and it is hard to get emotional and make an embarrassing bedsheet protest about circumstance.

on saturday there were no a4 posters that read "get an accumulation of psychological factors, a misjudged pre season conditioning programme, unrealistic transfer targets, the vagaries of interpersonal sporting group dynamics, external factors such as ill family members, emotional wellbeing, newborn babies, the ticking clock of time, injuries, the fixture list, the change in expectations and internal staffing politics OUT OF MY CLUB!"

secondly I think it is a more credible conclusion because it is relatively plausible. it takes in a lot of factors- some smaller than others- and says that when combined and allowed to snowball things got out of hand. that our bad form took a momentum of its own that became hard to arrest. there is a lot of precedent for that type of thing.

what you (and others) still haven't even tried to offer is a reason why the players would betray the manager en masse. no-one has even attempted to offer one credible reason.

there is no because in your explanation.

I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to do there. that post was as controlled as this or any of my other posts (insert punchline here). I was trying to highlight the ridiculous and hysterical posturing(that I perceived) by posting in the same fashion. its a rhetorical device.

I don't agree with everything you say, but you are definitely one of the most knowledgeable Chelsea fans (if not football fan in general) i know.

I can't for the life of me work out why you bothered writing that post [emoji14]

I mean, your right as usual, but it's not worth you keystrokes lol

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there are few more unhinged than you at the moment barry. you might not even be aware of it but logically you're absolutely all over the shop and the hysterical level of entitlement is almost baffling.

 

 
I really, really must stress that this video clip isn't evidence. it is an example of something you think shows the player doesn't care, but it is no more than that. I see a bad defensive player who shouldn't be man marking at corners beaten easily by a more aggressive player, you see evidence that he doesn't care.
 
already that particular part of your argument is over, but I will go further. you drew the comparison between  ivanovic and fabregas. one was merely playing badly, the other something altogether worse.
 
but look at this video
 
 
3.46 ivanovic's reaction. in my view basically the same. evidence that he doesn't care? evidence that he's betrayed anyone? not in my opinion. 
 
4.48 look at ivanovic again. loses a challenge with david silva that he is favourite for. 4 seconds later silva is on the edge of the box and ivanovic is basically in the same spot. perhaps evidence of betrayal or that he doesn't care? again, not for me. if there is evidence of anything in your comparison of the two players it is the following:
 
1) you are scapegoating cesc fabregas.
2) you don't know what the word evidence means.
 
 
so to answer the question "will I back up my points with evidence" the answer is no. there is none available. I have made inferences as well as I can do and I readily accept my feelings on what has happened this season are based on those inferences. in fact they hinge on them. I do feel they are solid inferences though and there is a logical through-line that follows them in a way that people who have come to conclusions like yours simply haven't displayed at all.
 

 

 
first of all, I have explained what I think has happened and why already. it is an easy explanation. perhaps not easy to accept, but as I say, it is far more credible than anything you (for example) have suggested. 
 
I'm a little disheartened at this dichotomy that you are insistent on creating: either you argue that the players don't care and have betrayed (words you have actually used) or jose "told every player to f*ck off en route to the title" (words I have never used). if you (or anyone reading this) truly believe it is only possible for one thing or another to be the case then stop reading this post, we're all wasting our time.
 
 
this is why I would characterise your responses as hysterical (and I use the word in the pitchfork sense rather than the woody allen sense):
 
the implication that either the players (in various numbers) have betrayed jose and don't care (more or less your view) or that jose has done something terrible to the players to somehow deserve getting sacked (absolutely not my view) actually reveals a lot about the person who presents this dichotomy; it indicates that they actually aren't interested (or maybe aren't ready) in solving the 'mystery' of why our season has gone the way it has (which is what I want to know / think I know). what they want is someone to blame. 
 
They are angry and just want accountability- names in black and white. unfortunately this has lead to a lot of absolutely baffling logical contrivances, confirmation biases and outright gossip to be treated with an undeserved and unearned reverence. I know that a forum is a place to vent as well as discuss but all the same I'm reluctant to see what I believe to be myth becoming fact simply because a lot of people choose to repeat it. and especially when I think it could have a negative effect on the the club I support.
 
 
on that page is a post by me which explains what I think has happened. as I say- I'm inferring. it is guesswork. just like yours. but I think it is much more likely to be close to the truth than your conclusions. firstly because it isn't about finding villains or outing traitors- the villain is circumstance really, and it is hard to get emotional and make an embarrassing bedsheet protest about circumstance.
 
on saturday there were no a4 posters that read "get an accumulation of psychological factors, a misjudged pre season conditioning programme, unrealistic transfer targets, the vagaries of interpersonal sporting group dynamics, external factors such as ill family members, emotional wellbeing,  newborn babies, the ticking clock of time, injuries, the fixture list, the change in expectations and internal staffing politics OUT OF MY CLUB!"
 
secondly I think it is a more credible conclusion because it is relatively plausible. it takes in a lot of factors- some smaller than others- and says that when combined and allowed to snowball things got out of hand. that our bad form took a momentum of its own that became hard to arrest. there is a lot of precedent for that type of thing. 
 
what you (and others) still haven't even tried to offer is a reason why the players would betray the manager en masse. no-one has even attempted to offer one credible reason
 
there is no because in your explanation.
 

 

I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to do there. that post was as controlled as this or any of my other posts (insert punchline here). I was trying to highlight the ridiculous and hysterical posturing(that I perceived) by posting in the same fashion. its a rhetorical device.

 

Sorry I just skimmed, no offence but it's a bit much to read going in knowing that we are likely to disagree regardless.  I'm not saying this in mockery (in reality it's probably related to me not yet having a coffee and recognizing that I'd actually have to engage my brain to properly assess what you've written.  A quick glance can show their is intelligence at work(even if I disagree with some of its content)).

 

I don't know what you think my point is, but let me make it clear.  I'm not saying Fabregas had a campaign against Mourinho (Im not saying he didn't either).  I'm not saying Mourinho is without fault (although I find it funny when people harp on about Mourinho needing to go because of the Eva situation and he was never a long term solution and some people dont like his style.....yet then suggest Pep who also ticks all those boxes) he certainly could of done things that would of made the season easier if not more successful (but who cant we say that of?).  Im not even saying that Fabregas is solely to blame (or that any of the players are).... but I think we all have to agree their performances was a significant factor in the end result.

 

What I am saying is that IN MY OPINION (perhaps I should clarify that my positions are not meant represent gospel truths but my opinion which I freely concede can be wrong...but clearly I suspect otherwise) and that of many others, is that Fabregas seemed to display a total level of indifference on the field at times when we needed leaders (and he is supposed to be one given his past and the support/standing Mourinho gave him) to step up and lead by example.

 

I completely agree that this situation has been brought about by a multitude of factors.  I doubt you care enough ( I know i dont) but I made a post quite a while back saying exactly that.  This season is just a bunch of bad luck and mistakes hitting all at the same time.  There is no single cause nor is there a single set of shoulders that deserve to carry the blame alone.

 

However, some things can be controlled like effort level. To me, and it seems many others, we can find fault in this with a player our manager took a chance on and supported publicly til the end.  Fabregas is not alone, I suspect some of our players were out of form BECAUSE of mental issues (discontent, not an actual mental illness or anything) as the underlying cause.

 

Part of me wants to say we will not agree on this but the other part of me has seen you write some intelligent points that will lead to this conclusion BECAUSE if you believe removing Mourinho will result in better performances from the same players then either consciously or subconsciously they are making a decision to under perform for him.  Perhaps you will have an better alternative.

 

But you are right about wanting accountability.  Doesn't seem fair BECAUSE that out of everyone involved, one of the few (Roman aside) who has given the most to Chelsea fans (in the Roman era) is seemingly the only one being held accountable.

 

As for Mourinho telling everyone to f**k off enroute to the title, that was in your post.  I dont know if you were directly quoting someone or trying to take the piss out of someone as that is what the intent (and almost entire content) of that post seemed to be.  As much as one side of this debate seems to appear so desperately Mourinho, to us the other side seems desperately anti-Mourinho. The level of speculation being used to defend Mourinho (or attacking certain others at the club) is mirrored by the speculation used to castigate Mourinho.

 

Lastly, despite all your calls for rationality, you are the one who seems to keep making it a debate of "all players revolted or none did" under Mourinho.  Despite your apparent disdain for the black and white, you are using that in this arguement.  I don't know if this is due to it being easier to say none were involved if the only other option is all involved, but in many cases a team dynamic can be completely thrown off by the actions ( or inaction) of a select few.  Not all players have been poor, some have been exceptional and some just as good as they typically are.  A few, however have seen massive drops and those few were key to out success last season.  Only takes a few off their game to throw off the rest and even if the rest stay true, those few are enough of a margin to effect the outcome of many BPL games.  So perhaps this will clarify a seemingly sticking point between us, but I dont think Mourinho needed to replace the WHOLE squad (or even a majority of it, though he already has done exactly that since returning) to fix the issues because I dont think the WHOLE squad (or even close to a majority section) had issues with him that couldn't immediately be addressed with some new blood or a few wins on the run.

 

 

PS.  Turns out I do know who Tim Roth is (one of those I know the face but not the name actors, to me) but I dont know the show you are talking about.  Think this season has contained enough drama so perhaps I'll look it up another time.

 

 

PPS.  You think removing the manager was the most pragmatic thing to do.  I strongly disagree.  I agree removing Mourinho was the easiest way to address the situation but I dont think it was necessarily the most sensible decision or the decision that would most realistically result in future success.  I recognize keeping Mourinho would likely of been the hard way to do it, but it's not uncommon for the hard decisions to end up being the best decisions.  I suspect this is a point we just will not agree on.

 

PPPS.  You think the board deserves credit for standing by Mourinho, I think they deserve blame for not supporting the manager in the window.  I also suspect its also a bit self-serving of the board to give Mourinho as much rope as possible to hang himself before firing the most succesful manager in club history who just won the double months ago.....that Roman apparently refused to give a talk to the squad at Mourinho's request would further cast doubt in my mind if the management above Mourinho really deserve any credit in supporting him.  One would also have to ask had the fans not been singing Mourinho name every game, would the board of sacked him sooner?  Again, I suspect this is a area where we wont agree no matter how much we post about it but I will end by asking  that other than time, what did the board give Mourinho to assist in getting through this bad period? If time was all Mourinho got in support then I would ask, was the time given in support or was it given to allow time to find a replacement and to hope the fans start to turn on him before the sacking?  Credible reason?  I don't think I have to explain motivation why some board members might not like Mourinho, I think just wanting him out the door with a minimum of black lash from the fans/not having a replacement is a pretty credible reason to give time even if not actually supporting the manager.  As many mentioned here, nothing looked like changing so it's credible to believe (in my opinion) that the board knew that results would not change.  If the context is they were still supporting Mourinho then I find it odd that losing away to the best team in the league (what many expected the result to be and right after winning our CL group) was what made them lose confidence, the breaking point.

 

PPPPS.   That is evidence. It might be weak evidence or insufficient evidence, but it is evidence.  Heck, it could even be false evidence, but by definition it is evidence  You can disagree with that all you want, but if you cant judge someone on the evidence of their actions, what can you?  Don't forget, this isn't a court of law so a legal standard of evidence is clearly not the standard I am going by on a football forum.

 

Oh and last of the lastly's, one credible reason why the players would under perform (oh, and destroying their career?  You cant be serious.  What player destroyed their career under the player power moves against AVB or Scolari?)?  To get a new manager.  To play the tactics they want instead of the tactics the manager used to win the double. To get to play in the position they want (or to get to play regularly).  Because Mourinho's training was too hard and demanding (this one apparently carries a lot of weight by some forum users).  Oh, Im not giving credible notion that this is why they turned on Mourinho en masse, because I dont think it's credible to believe the whole squad was unified either for or against Mourinho.  I suspect a few players have plenty of "credible" reasons (in their own minds anyways) to not give their total under Mourinho.  What credible reasons did the players have to do it to AVB or Scolari?  Apply them to this situation but you'll have to exclude the part about not believing the manager can bring success.... but I did give you an easy four that are not only credible but also logical.

 

Edit:  Unfortunately for you I didn't get coffee but some espresso shots whilst typing.

Edited by Barry Bridges
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Sorry but I don't understand how someone can say they could only be bothered to skim read but then still feel qualified to reply.

I read all of that and it was garbled and repeatedly contradicts itself, sometimes in the same sentence. There isn't anything for me to address in that post whatsoever.

You can't reply to something you haven't read and that post confirms something that ought not to need confirmation.

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Sorry but I don't understand how someone can say they could only be bothered to skim read but then still feel qualified to reply.

I read all of that and it was garbled and repeatedly contradicts itself, sometimes in the same sentence. There isn't anything for me to address in that post whatsoever.

You can't reply to something you haven't read and that post confirms something that ought not to need confirmation.

Ahh, so extrapolating information is your one flaw then?

 

Clearly one can skim something and then start the process of replying.... then read more as they reply. No? 

 

I felt the same way about your post but feel into the trap of replying.  You use some eloquent language but that unfortunately doe not determine a better stance or view point.  Some of us just dont care one iota (on a forum anyways) for grammar and spelling.  Im also not going to waste time worrying about format or anything of the like.  

 

Why waste the time one someone who continually does things like blame you for contradicting yourself despite doing it (or outright lies) themselves?

 

 

I'm a little disheartened at this dichotomy that you are insistent on creating: either you argue that the players don't care and have betrayed (words you have actually used) or jose "told every player to f*ck off en route to the title" (words I have never used). if you (or anyone reading this) truly believe it is only possible for one thing or another to be the case then stop reading this post, we're all wasting our time.
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

"I WAS PERSONALLY BETRAYED BY THE PLAYERS. I spent the entirety of last season telling them to individually and collectively f*ck off on their way to winning the title and THIS is how they repay me? what a bunch of entitled c*nts. get rid of them and bring me new players to support!"

 

I guess your mind slipped.  Even if that is a direct quote (and its not, it was you being a smart ass....sorry, it was you utilizing your amazing rhetorical abilties), you can recognize you used those words, no?

 

 

Never mind the other issues like you demanding to know the credible reasons for why the players would, en mass, turn on Mourinho despite that claim never being made by the person you are talking too?  (What's that rhetorical device?  Surely there is a fancy name for a straw man argument like that.  Those simple words are so beneath you) 

 

Don't forget this started because you didn't like that I was judging Fabregas on his actions (you really should learn what evidence is, it's not only stuff that is admissible in a court of law..context mate) so I won't respond to any of your posts (slow learner in some ways, I certainly am) but since we can't judge Fabregas on his actions, what can we judge him on? 

 

Oh, and feel free to not reply to this.  A man of your mighty intelligence will surely leave the pleasure of the last word with a simpleton like me.  You're satisfaction, i trust, will come from your obvious superiority.

 

 

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