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Mike 93

Willian


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2 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

Other than scoring an incorrectly dis-allowed goal, obviously.

I'd like to point out my comment was actually from after the last BATE match (RLC master-class).

Looking at your comment though, everyone scores occasionally. I don't think anyone can try to argue that Willian has an above average end product. His goal scoring record speaks for itself, not in a good way.

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I can't argue, other than to say there was end-product at the weekend  and I'm not convinced it is Willian's job to score that many.  Chip in a few every now and again, yes, but I never expected him to be a 15-20-25 goal a season player.  That's what we have Morata for.

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1 hour ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

Other than scoring an incorrectly dis-allowed goal, obviously.

That was the only time he was in the right place at the right time though, his play is usually very static, I don't agree with all the criticism he gets in this thread I think it goes overboard but I also don't think he does enough. 

There are times when he is incredible and unplayable, I think there were certain moments when he was cutting in and trying to change the game, took 2 good shots which I applauded because we needed to get that goal. But if you watch Pedro for example he was taking more risks and cutting in to try and grab another goal who imo was MOTM. 

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1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

I'd like to point out my comment was actually from after the last BATE match (RLC master-class).

Looking at your comment though, everyone scores occasionally. I don't think anyone can try to argue that Willian has an above average end product. His goal scoring record speaks for itself, not in a good way.

Hahahaha sorry that was my bad I didn't even notice that! 

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3 hours ago, Slojo said:

I don't agree with all the criticism he gets in this thread I think it goes overboard

I think this is for two reasons. 

1. He has an oversized role in the squad based on his contributions. He’s in the media talking a lot. He had a bright light shines on him with Conte and he was very vocal. Meanwhile, his on the pitch contribution is closer to that of a role player. 

2. The money. I think Willian is a great role player, but if we’re turning down premium money for him, he’s expected to have premium results. He’s never going to be top line contributor. At 30 he is who he is. So if we’re getting silly money for him, for the love of God, cash in..

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aww bless, you youngsters with your obsession with the cost of things.  What's the saying about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing?  I'll have to go an look that up in my dictionary of quotations, now!

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4 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Add to that the fact that we paid more for Willian than we did for Hazard. With that comes expectation to do more.

They both cost pretty much the same. I don't really think that willian's fee should be a reason for him receive heavier critism. He's been £30m well spent, and if we did decide to sell him, we would actually make a profit.

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2 minutes ago, big blue said:

They both cost pretty much the same. I don't really think that willian's fee should be a reason for him receive heavier critism. He's been £30m well spent, and if we did decide to sell him, we would actually make a profit.

Only paid £28m for Hazard in the end. A couple of mil might not be much in football terms but it still makes him our most expensive winger in history. With that you expect a certain pedigree in the attacking third. Every player receives heavier criticism because of their price tag if they aren't performing, Chelsea fans of all people know that with some of the expensive mistakes we've made. We'd only make a profit because of how the market has inflated after the Neymar deal, go back to the year we bought him and we'd struggle to get anyone to match the price. 

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28 minutes ago, big blue said:

He's been £30m well spent, and if we did decide to sell him, we would actually make a profit.

I don’t disagree with that. I think Chelsea has gotten great value for the money spent. 

But if we talk about Cost. What has he cost Chelsea? Mo Salah? Possibly. 

Is he taking away minutes from Hudson-Odoi in lesser competitions? Probably 

Leon Bailey? Maybe 

I absolutely think about value, and I’m of the opinion Chelsea could get more short term production and in positive Chelsea could get more long term production if they got €50M+ for him. 

I hedge on those thoughts, because that money seems ridiculous, and it’s hard to believe that it would be turned down and even harder to believe that it would be offered. 

In a vacuum, I’d rather have him in the squad than not in the squad, but he seems to take an oversized role in the media for someone who in the end produces so little. 

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23 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Only paid £28m for Hazard in the end. A couple of mil might not be much in football terms but it still makes him our most expensive winger in history. With that you expect a certain pedigree in the attacking third. Every player receives heavier criticism because of their price tag if they aren't performing, Chelsea fans of all people know that with some of the expensive mistakes we've made. We'd only make a profit because of how the market has inflated after the Neymar deal, go back to the year we bought him and we'd struggle to get anyone to match the price. 

According to transfer market hazard cost £31.5m, and willian cost £31.95m, if anything due to hazard being a few years younger, you could argue there would've been a bigger expectation on him. 

Spurs and Liverpool were both very close to signing him for a similar fee at the time. 

Maybe we overpaid by £5m, but there was serious competition for him at the time. 

I agree big transfer fees come with bigger scrutiny, but in Willian's case I don't think the price we paid was so outlandish, that he should be expected to be one of the best players in the world, like hazard is. He was 25 at the time aswell, so he was close to his peak. World class wingers in their prime were going for more than double that in 2013, so I'm not sure what you were really expecting. 

We got what we paid for in my opinion, a very good attacker, capable of winning games, but ultimately lacks consistency and end product to be one of the very best in the world. 

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6 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

I don’t disagree with that. I think Chelsea has gotten great value for the money spent. 

But if we talk about Cost. What has he cost Chelsea? Mo Salah? Possibly. 

Is he taking away minutes from Hudson-Odoi in lesser competitions? Probably 

Leon Bailey? Maybe 

I absolutely think about value, and I’m of the opinion Chelsea could get more short term production and in positive Chelsea could get more long term production if they got €50M+ for him. 

I hedge on those thoughts, because that money seems ridiculous, and it’s hard to believe that it would be turned down and even harder to believe that it would be offered. 

In a vacuum, I’d rather have him in the squad than not in the squad, but he seems to take an oversized role in the media for someone who in the end produces so little. 

Salah was terrible when he got a chance here, while Willian was part of a title winning 11.

Salah not making it here is down to Salah. 

Hudson odoi was 18 yesterday, how many minutes should a 17 year old rookie be given? Surely bringing on Moses for 10 mins here and there is more of hindrance, since Sarri has said he isn't in his plans. 

Leon bailey has been poor for lederhosen this season, and from a lot of what I've read, he is very immature, and his dad is causing a lot of issues for him. 

In terms of his oversized role, he was a squad player 2 seasons under conte, and this season, pedro and hazard have both missed games through injury, so Willian has found himself in the team regularly, and to be honest he's played okay. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

I think this is for two reasons. 

1. He has an oversized role in the squad based on his contributions. He’s in the media talking a lot. He had a bright light shines on him with Conte and he was very vocal. Meanwhile, his on the pitch contribution is closer to that of a role player. 

2. The money. I think Willian is a great role player, but if we’re turning down premium money for him, he’s expected to have premium results. He’s never going to be top line contributor. At 30 he is who he is. So if we’re getting silly money for him, for the love of God, cash in..

 

Didn't he win both Player's Player and Fan's Player of the year a few seasons ago? Doesn't that indicate a 'top line' contribution?

And then there's him being almost ever-present in Mourinho's last title-winning side.

Considering everything we've achieved with him in the side I think it reflects very badly on us that so many are keen to get rid. By the way, I dropped in a Derby forum after the cup game to see what people were saying about Mount but most of the praise was for Willian. It's weird how under-appreciated he is with some of our fans.

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31 minutes ago, bluedave said:

Didn't he win both Player's Player and Fan's Player of the year a few seasons ago? Doesn't that indicate a 'top line' contribution?

He had 5 Premier League goals that year. 32 starts and 3 substitute appearances Chelsea finished 11th.

No, I don't consider that to be top line. 

You say under appreciated, but I think it's weird how much credit he gets for being an attacking player who has never scored 10 EPL Goals, whose most productive season was coming off the bench as an impact sub for a manager he publicly slagged off.

If I was playing a game that got points for tricks and individual creativity, he'd be my second choice behind Hazard. 

"Considering everything we've achieved with him in the side I think it reflects very badly on us that so many are keen to get rid"

Did you just describe Gary Cahill?

Can you imagine if the rumors were that someone offered us 50M for Cahill and we turned it down? That's the frustration I feel watching Willian. 

Edited by Skinnedy

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56 minutes ago, big blue said:

In terms of his oversized role, he was a squad player 2 seasons under conte, and this season, pedro and hazard have both missed games through injury, so Willian has found himself in the team regularly, and to be honest he's played okay. 

I agree. He's played OK. But again, if you ask me if I'd rather have OK, or £50m+ to reinvest in the squad... well... I think of him as a luxury player. 

I think we can all agree we need upgrades on the wings in the very near future no matter what you think of Willian simply because of his age. It worries me that we might have missed a chance to sell high on him. I think he's very popular with his teammates, Hazard in particular, and that may be the No. 1 reason he wasn't sold. With a new coach coming in, the cohesion was needed. He's a depreciating asset on a team that uses assets for reinvestment. When I watch him play, I don't see £50m on the pitch... I see "OK". And I'd rather see £50m. 

It's not as easy as all that, I get that... but we know exactly what we're getting out of Willian. 5-7 goals per season. Shouldn't we be hoping for more? I am... Shouldn't we be able to get more for £50m? I think so...

When I speak of oversized role, I don't mean on the pitch... I'd love for him to have an oversized role. I'd love for him to be as feared in the front three as some of our closest rivals... I was speaking more of how visible/vocal he was in the media last year and leading into this year. I know the negative headlines get more attention, but I for one was as tired of hearing about him and his unhappiness as I was about Courtois. He is being made out to be a critical part of the squad as an attacking wing that barely outproduces our left back.

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14 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

He had 5 Premier League goals that year. 32 starts and 3 substitute appearances Chelsea finished 11th.

No, I don't consider that to be top line. 

1

Well, you can consider it however you want, it's just your reasoning is not very good.

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1 hour ago, bluedave said:

Well, you can consider it however you want, it's just your reasoning is not very good.

Maybe.

But I think that you’d point to a five goal season as justification of Willian’s importance and I’d point to that same five goal season as Willian’s expendibility is probably evidence that we’re just not going to agree. 

And that’s OK. 

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2 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

I don’t disagree with that. I think Chelsea has gotten great value for the money spent. 

But if we talk about Cost. What has he cost Chelsea? Mo Salah? Possibly. 

Is he taking away minutes from Hudson-Odoi in lesser competitions? Probably 

Leon Bailey? Maybe 

I absolutely think about value, and I’m of the opinion Chelsea could get more short term production and in positive Chelsea could get more long term production if they got €50M+ for him. 

I hedge on those thoughts, because that money seems ridiculous, and it’s hard to believe that it would be turned down and even harder to believe that it would be offered. 

In a vacuum, I’d rather have him in the squad than not in the squad, but he seems to take an oversized role in the media for someone who in the end produces so little. 

That's very unfair... Mourinho was the one who clearly mismanaged Salah and didn't want him here, you can't blame that on Willian. And everytime a player starts he takes minutes away from someone so this argument is just stupid.

Willian has been a good player for us, not the greatest, definitely frustrating but he's given us some great moments and patches in his career I would even say two good seasons. Is he overrated? Yeah, I think so, he's also underrated by a lot of people as well though. 

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1 minute ago, Slojo said:

That's very unfair... Mourinho was the one who clearly mismanaged Salah and didn't want him here, you can't blame that on Willian. And everytime a player starts he takes minutes away from someone so this argument is just stupid.

Willian has been a good player for us, not the greatest, definitely frustrating but he's given us some great moments and patches in his career I would even say two good seasons. Is he overrated? Yeah, I think so, he's also underrated by a lot of people as well though. 

Yeah, I was just throwing it out there for discussion, that’s why there’s a question mark behind it. Not a definitive statement. 

Again, I won’t speak for all Chelsea fans, just this one, as to why I’m critical of Willian.

1. I thought he handled himself extremely unprofessionally last year. He wasn’t the only one that had a problem with Conte, but considering he hadn’t his most productive seasons under the manager, I thought he could have been more of a pro. 

2. And again, I qualify this as knowing it’s just smoke, but I would rather have £50M to reinvest in a young winger than Willian right now.

3. I think we can get better production out of the position. 

i don’t think he’s terrible. But I think he’s over valued based on the production, and I think he’s a good squad player. 

And if he’s overvalued, I’d just as soon cash in on him while he still has value, because of his age. 

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