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I totally agree with loz.

Let's not focus on negative here. Willian is a good player - it's a fact! I believe he will improve. Yes he's 26 but that doesn't mean he can't improve. A lot of players reach their prime later in their carrier.

Last season people were complaining about Oscar and look at him now.

Btw. When Willian scores a couple of goals people will change their opinion about him :)

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Now if you want to talk about false dichotomies....wowzer!

 

So the choice is goals and assists or points....tough one. Is there some kind of clubcard exchange programme where I can trade in goals for points?

 

 

 

Blimey you're a glass half-full chap aren't you. See my first thought of a right-winger who cost about £30 million was Alexis Sanchez, a guy who has 9 goals, 5 assists and works his bollocks off in matches. 

 

Offensive and defensive contributions are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for a player to work hard helping to get the ball back and then do something with it when he has it, especially when he has Branislav Ivanovic covering his wing for him.

 

 

 

Willian doesn't cover Ivanovic as you've people suggested. When we're attacking Cahill comes across, Terry sits in the middle and Azpi stays back with Matic filling a hole approximately halfway between him and Hazard. If the opposition counters then Ivanovic works his bollocks off to get back.

 

That's from me watching our matches this season. Willian actually has a pretty cushy ride in the team. He has Costa doing a massive amount of pressing up top, he has possibly the hardest-working midfield trio behind him (Matic, Oscar and Fabregas) who track back magnificently, sit deeper than him in attacks and even contribute a fantastic amount of incisive passes and outside of him he has Ivanovic who is an absolute machine on the right-flank.

 

That gives Willian so much freedom as an old-fashioned inside-right player yet he's got just one goal and one assist all season. Schurrle has got two goals in one-third of the minutes.

Well if you can use the false correlation relating numerous goals/assists to being an effective AM for the team.  Might be a false dichotomy, but the fact that we have  three certain records (most goals ever in a BPL season, fewest goals ever in a BPL season and most points won in a BPL season) and that we got the most points when we conceded the fewest goals, not when we scored the most goals, suggests a stronger correlation between not conceding and points versus scoring and points.

 

That aside, who says we are choosing massively between goals and assists?  The difference between Schurrle's goals and Willians's (7, btw) is the exact same as the difference between Willians assists and Schurrle's (7) since the start of last season.  We dont lose goals as a team, which is really what it is about.  I mean Schurrle isnt exactly Lampard here, though obviously no one has informed him because he shoots the ball anytime he has a tenth of a chance.  In fact, in the face of your claims that Willian has way more game time, I would point out that over that same time frame Schurrle has 50% more shots than Willian.  That statistic/tendency, with the fact Willian has far more assists, would indicate that while Schurrle may get more goals himself, Willian is more conducive to the team as a whole scoring.  I wonder if any of that enters the equation of why we see him feature ahead of Schurrle.

 

Would I take Sanchez over Schurrle?  Of course, before and after the fact.  I just think if you want to compare Willian to other players around his price range that it is ignorant to only do so with the players who have been massive successes and ignore the flops.  Talk about stacking the deck.

 

If you think Ivan has been as committed to his defense duties this season compared to those in the past, you've clearly not been paying attention or are using some selective bias. How many times have we been punished on that side?  I still rate him highly, but its not uncommon for Willian to be back on defence before him and I remember seeing Ivan actually be the last one back on a counter, taking time to waste energy in a display of disappointment, when everyone else was hauling ass.  Never seen it before this season from him. Schurrle gets the same cover, but aside from more of him shooting and turnovers, do we see an improvement in the team when he is on?  Only when Schurrle is on his A game and that's not a consistent thing by any measurement, especially when his major sole contribution appears to be goals.  He is not a better defensive asset than Willian, I think all sides have agreed, but will you claim Schurrle has the better touch?  Has the better vision? Has the better passing?  Has the better dribbling?  All very important to the team while not being heralded as goals and assists.  Schurrle might get more goals, but are you considering all the other things that he currently seems to lack compared to Willian?

 

Willian can be improved upon but it would likely cost more than his own fee and it certainly doesn't appear an improvement will come from within the squad this season.  Jose has apparently identified that Schurrle works best as an impact sub. Schurrle might be more likely to get goals but Willian is better suited to making a team tick when the strategy is based on possession and high pressing, the statistics, team performance and Jose's selections seemed to back this.  If anything, JM has sacrificed even more starts this season for Schurrle to give them to William compared to last. Hate to trot it out, but the fact that JM orchestrated his purchase and continued selection indicates that someone far better than either of us in this arena thinks Willian the better current option for starting most games. And quite frankly, you want to see Willian score more?  Just have him shoot as much as Schurrle does.  Through enough crap at a wall and some of it sticks.

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Well if you can use the false correlation relating numerous goals/assists to being an effective AM for the team.  Might be a false dichotomy, but the fact that we have  three certain records (most goals ever in a BPL season, fewest goals ever in a BPL season and most points won in a BPL season) and that we got the most points when we conceded the fewest goals, not when we scored the most goals, suggests a stronger correlation between not conceding and points versus scoring and points.

 

That aside, who says we are choosing massively between goals and assists?  The difference between Schurrle's goals and Willians's (7, btw) is the exact same as the difference between Willians assists and Schurrle's (7) since the start of last season.  We dont lose goals as a team, which is really what it is about.  I mean Schurrle isnt exactly Lampard here, though obviously no one has informed him because he shoots the ball anytime he has a tenth of a chance.  In fact, in the face of your claims that Willian has way more game time, I would point out that over that same time frame Schurrle has 50% more shots than Willian.  That statistic/tendency, with the fact Willian has far more assists, would indicate that while Schurrle may get more goals himself, Willian is more conducive to the team as a whole scoring.  I wonder if any of that enters the equation of why we see him feature ahead of Schurrle.

 

Would I take Sanchez over Schurrle?  Of course, before and after the fact.  I just think if you want to compare Willian to other players around his price range that it is ignorant to only do so with the players who have been massive successes and ignore the flops.  Talk about stacking the deck.

 

If you think Ivan has been as committed to his defense duties this season compared to those in the past, you've clearly not been paying attention or are using some selective bias. How many times have we been punished on that side?  I still rate him highly, but its not uncommon for Willian to be back on defence before him and I remember seeing Ivan actually be the last one back on a counter, taking time to waste energy in a display of disappointment, when everyone else was hauling ass.  Never seen it before this season from him. Schurrle gets the same cover, but aside from more of him shooting and turnovers, do we see an improvement in the team when he is on?  Only when Schurrle is on his A game and that's not a consistent thing by any measurement, especially when his major sole contribution appears to be goals.  He is not a better defensive asset than Willian, I think all sides have agreed, but will you claim Schurrle has the better touch?  Has the better vision? Has the better passing?  Has the better dribbling?  All very important to the team while not being heralded as goals and assists.  Schurrle might get more goals, but are you considering all the other things that he currently seems to lack compared to Willian?

 

Willian can be improved upon but it would likely cost more than his own fee and it certainly doesn't appear an improvement will come from within the squad this season.  Jose has apparently identified that Schurrle works best as an impact sub. Schurrle might be more likely to get goals but Willian is better suited to making a team tick when the strategy is based on possession and high pressing, the statistics, team performance and Jose's selections seemed to back this.  If anything, JM has sacrificed even more starts this season for Schurrle to give them to William compared to last. Hate to trot it out, but the fact that JM orchestrated his purchase and continued selection indicates that someone far better than either of us in this arena thinks Willian the better current option for starting most games. And quite frankly, you want to see Willian score more?  Just have him shoot as much as Schurrle does.  Through enough crap at a wall and some of it sticks.

Superb comment. Schurrle so-called extra goals just isn't worth the effort considering:

 

(1) We have more goal-scoring options this season.

 

(2) His touch, passing, vision, link-up play and intelligence in possession is generally sub-par, especially when we play away from home. 

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That aside, who says we are choosing massively between goals and assists?  The difference between Schurrle's goals and Willians's (7, btw) is the exact same as the difference between Willians assists and Schurrle's (7) since the start of last season.  We dont lose goals as a team, which is really what it is about.  I mean Schurrle isnt exactly Lampard here, though obviously no one has informed him because he shoots the ball anytime he has a tenth of a chance.  In fact, in the face of your claims that Willian has way more game time, I would point out that over that same time frame Schurrle has 50% more shots than Willian.  That statistic/tendency, with the fact Willian has far more assists, would indicate that while Schurrle may get more goals himself, Willian is more conducive to the team as a whole scoring.  I wonder if any of that enters the equation of why we see him feature ahead of Schurrle.

 

But you're not accounting for the minutes played by both players, especially this season. You're more than welcome to use a sample size of that many months as well, but this season alone they were both 'involved' in four goals despite Willian playing more than DOUBLE the number of minutes. In the league they both take the SAME number of shots per game as well. I have no doubt that Schurrle probably is a little more selfish in front of goal but that worked out pretty well to get us the lead away to Man City and Burnley didn't it? 

 

 

If you think Ivan has been as committed to his defense duties this season compared to those in the past, you've clearly not been paying attention or are using some selective bias. 

 

 

We're set up as a team to allow Ivanovic to get forward but the guy works tremendously hard and I was paying attention to that in two specific matches - Arsenal at home where I was sat in the East Upper and Schalke at home where I was sat in the West Upper (neither through choice). It's utterly astounding just how key he is to what we do and how much work he does getting up and down the right flank.

 

And I'll be the first to acknowledge that Schurrle had a sh*t game against Arsenal and I was begging for him to be withdrawn.

 

He is not a better defensive asset than Willian, I think all sides have agreed, but will you claim Schurrle has the better touch?  Has the better vision? Has the better passing?  Has the better dribbling?  All very important to the team while not being heralded as goals and assists.  Schurrle might get more goals, but are you considering all the other things that he currently seems to lack compared to Willian?

 

 

Defensively I see very little between them. Schurrle is an engine and last night he put in a real shift, even after picking up a yellow in the second minute (a great decision by him in my opinion). Vision-wise, Schurrle has the better eye for his own chances and I think he's a better crosser. His own movement in the box is better than Willian's.

 

Willian's vision is nothing special at all which is why I'm surprised when people call him a playmaker. Watch the most recent game against Hull to see him blow a couple of breaks in the first half with underhit balls.

 

Dribbling I'd probably have to give it to Willian who is better in confined spaces, but running at opponents with the ball is probably in Schurrle's court because he tends to be more aggressive.

 

 

Willian can be improved upon but it would likely cost more than his own fee and it certainly doesn't appear an improvement will come from within the squad this season.  

 

 

Reus is apparently available for £20 million and he seems to be the popular choice.

 

Schurrle might be more likely to get goals but Willian is better suited to making a team tick when the strategy is based on possession and high pressing, the statistics, team performance and Jose's selections seemed to back this.

 

 

Schurrle's pressing game is the equal of Willian's when he's healthy in my opinion.

 

  If anything, JM has sacrificed even more starts this season for Schurrle to give them to William compared to last. 

 

 

Don't know if you're aware but Schurrle has apparently been ill for the entire season, hence his limited appearances.

 

And quite frankly, you want to see Willian score more?  Just have him shoot as much as Schurrle does.  Through enough crap at a wall and some of it sticks.

 

Willian has had more shots than Schurrle in the league this season and scored less.

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Add to that Schurrle's Free kicks and corners are much better as well.

 

Willian is ridiculously overrated by Chelsea fans. He's no more than a bang average player. No creativity, no vision, no killer instinct in front of goal, clueless in final third, no movement, can't take set pieces, can't cross. Good things about him - workhorse, pace, dribbling, ball control, stamina. Other than that nothing. Much like a technically improved Ramires but with less output i.e goals and assists.

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Schurrle is far more incisive in the final third, which is refreshing. our attacking mids all seem to have a reluctance to shoot, even when they have a clear sight. i enjoy the one touch stuff when it pays off, but sometimes i wish we had a lampard in those areas to just SHOOT! and schurrle offers that. a bit of decisiveness, happy to take it upon himself to DO SOMETHING to win the game for us. hazard is improving in that respect, but willian always wants to play another pass rather than shoot. Technically, i think willian is better. has better ball control, is very nimble and works hard defensively. but i think as an attacker, Schurrle is more effective. less graceful, but more effective and that is what counts

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Schurrle is far more incisive in the final third, which is refreshing. our attacking mids all seem to have a reluctance to shoot, even when they have a clear sight. i enjoy the one touch stuff when it pays off, but sometimes i wish we had a lampard in those areas to just SHOOT! and schurrle offers that. a bit of decisiveness, happy to take it upon himself to DO SOMETHING to win the game for us. hazard is improving in that respect, but willian always wants to play another pass rather than shoot. Technically, i think willian is better. has better ball control, is very nimble and works hard defensively. but i think as an attacker, Schurrle is more effective. less graceful, but more effective and that is what counts

That depends on what you consider 'effective'. On the one hand you have a player who helps the team dominate the game by retaining possession (thereby ensuring the likes of Hazard, Costa and Fabregas have greater influence) and offers additional defensive protection. And on the other you have a guy who will provide an attacking outlet and perhaps have better 'numbers' over the same amount of time.

We already have the best scoring rate in the league so I see no real reason to choose Schurrle over Willian.

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So one of our £30m wingers best assets is to cover for our right back?

I'm sorry but that's just not reason enough to pick him.

I see examples given of nearly goals and nearly assists but the simple truth is he isn't putting up the kind of numbers that others in our squad do playing the same role.

Schurrle in ten minutes got closer to scoring and setting up a goal than Willian did in 80.

Willian just doesn't impact games in the attacking third nearly as much as he should and for all the talk of pressing (lest we forget Schurrle won the ball just outside the 18 yard box that almost led to a goal yesterday), tackles, ground covered it just doesn't add up to me because 9 games out if 10 he isn't producing where it matters most, in attack.

 

Your points are true.. but what Willian does give us is versatility, I have been critical of Willian's end product as much as anyone, but I also appreciate other aspects of his game which mainly is his dirty work. First of all I think it gives Oscar more freedom to move, which I don't think he takes full advantage of.

 

As far as scoring goes there is no doubt Schürrle is the obvious pick, but if we wish to bear the hallmark's of champions we need to be able to handle different teams and I'm happy we have Willian in the squad, I do think Schürrle deserves more of a chance than 20 minutes in the end of every game, but usually by that time this season we've been ahead and by that time Jose is usually trying to slow the game down so it's rather Mikel coming on than Schürrle.

 

As long as Costa, Oscar, Hazard or anyone else is scoring, I think Willian fits right in there, although I do wish he could score more.

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Your points are true.. but what Willian does give us is versatility, I have been critical of Willian's end product as much as anyone, but I also appreciate other aspects of his game which mainly is his dirty work. First of all I think it gives Oscar more freedom to move, which I don't think he takes full advantage of.

 

As far as scoring goes there is no doubt Schürrle is the obvious pick, but if we wish to bear the hallmark's of champions we need to be able to handle different teams and I'm happy we have Willian in the squad, I do think Schürrle deserves more of a chance than 20 minutes in the end of every game, but usually by that time this season we've been ahead and by that time Jose is usually trying to slow the game down so it's rather Mikel coming on than Schürrle.

 

As long as Costa, Oscar, Hazard or anyone else is scoring, I think Willian fits right in there, although I do wish he could score more.

 

Schurrle is as good at the dirty work/defensive side of the game as Willian.

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Your points are true.. but what Willian does give us is versatility, I have been critical of Willian's end product as much as anyone, but I also appreciate other aspects of his game which mainly is his dirty work. First of all I think it gives Oscar more freedom to move, which I don't think he takes full advantage of.

 

As far as scoring goes there is no doubt Schürrle is the obvious pick, but if we wish to bear the hallmark's of champions we need to be able to handle different teams and I'm happy we have Willian in the squad, I do think Schürrle deserves more of a chance than 20 minutes in the end of every game, but usually by that time this season we've been ahead and by that time Jose is usually trying to slow the game down so it's rather Mikel coming on than Schürrle.

 

As long as Costa, Oscar, Hazard or anyone else is scoring, I think Willian fits right in there, although I do wish he could score more.

 

Basically my gripe is that the area of the pitch that Willian spends the most time in (attack) is where he is the least effective because of poor finishing, decision making, bad passes. 

 

In 40 league appearances he's managed 6 goals and 2 assists (despite being one of the primary set piece takers last season). 

 

For all the running around, pressing etc I just don't think he impacts games in attack enough to which is his primary function in the team. Almost every other player who comes into the side when he doesn't play puts up better numbers than him in regards to attacking contributions and that's where my frustration is. 

 

I'm not saying he is a bad footballer, technique wise he can be very good but in an attacking sense he just doesn't cut the mustard. 

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Schurrle is as good at the dirty work/defensive side of the game as Willian.

 

That's where I disagree, Schürrle is more of a traditional winger if that makes any sense, when he gets the ball his first instinct is how to get into the net, whereas Willian is more of a box to box midfielder type of player, basically Ramires with better technique.

 

That raises a question, could Willian play in that central midfield role?

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Worst performance in a Chelsea shirt? Took the most shots last night, little pace in attack, looked dithery on the ball and unexceptional in defence.

Surely Schurrle needs to start getting some starts to have a chance to build up some form.

Totally agree. I'm a fan of Willian in general and understand what he offers to the side. Whilst not sure whether I prefer him or Andre, he was very very bad last night

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We definitely need a wide attacking player who is clinical. I would have loved an alexis sanchez here to play on the right side, and I'm shocked we never went in for him for the price. Reus would, I suppose, be ideal for the price, but I've not seen much of him, or if he's any better than schurrle.

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We definitely need a wide attacking player who is clinical. I would have loved an alexis sanchez here to play on the right side, and I'm shocked we never went in for him for the price. Reus would, I suppose, be ideal for the price, but I've not seen much of him, or if he's any better than schurrle.

 

He is better than Schurrle.

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We definitely need a wide attacking player who is clinical. I would have loved an alexis sanchez here to play on the right side, and I'm shocked we never went in for him for the price. Reus would, I suppose, be ideal for the price, but I've not seen much of him, or if he's any better than schurrle.

 

Reus was footballer of the year in 2012. Last season him and Lewandowski carried a Dortmund with injury problems, Reus ended up with 23 goals and 18 assists in all competitions. He is alot closer to the quality of Bale and Ronaldo, then Willian and Shurrle.

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Being honest here, if United/City/Arsenal had bought an attacking midfielder for £30million, who had only scored and assisted as little as Willian has, wouldn't most call him a flop, waste of money etc?

Not saying he has been a flop because I understand the important qualities he brings us, but considering he is meant to be an attacking midfielder, you would expect more.

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Yes he is but if either Willian or Schurrle got to play all the time they'd rack up some nice stats as well. In Chelsea you need to be Hazard-level to play all the time. But yes I agree Reus is on different level to those two.

 

Purely based on averages, if they were both given the same minutes as Hazard last season (3904)

 

Schurrle would get you around 17 goals + 4 assists

Willian would get around 5 goals + 8 assists

 

If Reus can replicate his Champions league rate for us he would get 21 goals + 19 assists.

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Being honest here, if United/City/Arsenal had bought an attacking midfielder for £30million, who had only scored and assisted as little as Willian has, wouldn't most call him a flop, waste of money etc?

Not saying he has been a flop because I understand the important qualities he brings us, but considering he is meant to be an attacking midfielder, you would expect more.

 

 

That's why I tend not to comment on players that I haven't seen play that much... stats can be very misleading on occasion 

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