Football League plans changes to black manager recruitment

[ForeverCarefree]

The Football League wants clubs to interview one black minority ethnic (BME) candidate for each head coach or manager role from the 2016-17 season.

 

The plans, which League clubs have backed, will see a version of American football's 'Rooney Rule' piloted.

 

Only four black managers are currently employed at the 72 League clubs.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33015657

 

Been an ongoing debate for awhile now in English football about the lack of black coaches throughout the leagues. 

 

Some argue that there is an institutional racism within the sport with Sol Campbell among the most vocal about the lack of opportunities offered to black coaches. 

 

My belief is that this isn't the answer, you're now interviewing coaches purely on the colour of their skin rather than their ability to do the job. 

 

How do you even filter the applications? Do you now need to start telling non ethnic coaches they won't be interviewed for a role because they need to meet the quota of interviewing black coaches? 

 

It's positive discrimination which is still a form of discrimination. Are black coaches going to feel they got a job because they was the best man for it or because they've become a political pawn and figurehead in this scheme?

 

Personally I think if a manager or coach is good enough and wants it enough they'll find the jobs. Look at Jimmy Floydd Hasselbaink, he took on a job in League 2 to begin his career, he didn't expect to just be handed a role at a club in the top tiers which the likes of Sol Campbell seem to be expecting.

 

JFH did his time working as an assistant at a few different clubs, built up his knowledge and understanding of what it takes to coach, aimed to start at the bottom and prove his worth and has worked hard with Burton and got them promoted and is doing a great job. If a black Dutchman with no prior managerial experience can do it, what's stopping other black coaches doing the same if they have the same level of drive and more importantly ability? 

[Valerie]

I feel the same FC. Although I understand the necessity to pay more attention to groups that are under-represented in certain categories of employment or education, the risk that someone is even just being perceived as getting preferential treatment, does more harm than good, even if that person is completely right for the job or school or whatever.

In my opinion, much more can be gained from being vigilant about discriminitation on one hand, and encouragement and mentoring of talent on the other.

There will probably never be equal opportunities for every single person, especially in education there will always be smart or talented children not getting noticed. It takes great determination and self-belief and graft to overcome adversity or prejudice.

BTW I read the other day that girls now make up the majority of students in higher education in Britain, and some people now feel boys should get preferential treatment :-)

[Blue Daze]

Black/minority candidates are underrepresented so requiring one to be interviewed is one way of dealing with what is a larger problem in society. Not really an issue in my opinion.

[ForeverCarefree]

I feel the same FC. Although I understand the necessity to pay more attention to groups that are under-represented in certain categories of employment or education, the risk that someone is even just being perceived as getting preferential treatment, does more harm than good, even if that person is completely right for the job or school or whatever.

In my opinion, much more can be gained from being vigilant about discriminitation on one hand, and encouragement and mentoring of talent on the other.

There will probably never be equal opportunities for every single person, especially in education there will always be smart or talented children not getting noticed. It takes great determination and self-belief and graft to overcome adversity or prejudice.

BTW I read the other day that girls now make up the majority of students in higher education in Britain, and some people now feel boys should get preferential treatment :-)

 

Interesting point about the higher education. 

 

If we are forever focusing on those who are not getting jobs or struggling to meet their goals do we not risk overlooking those who are in the jobs? 

 

I would say as a rule their is a bit of lack of top quality British coaches right now, where are the young upcoming coaches/managers? I would like to see more efforts put into increasing the quality and standard of coaching rather than worrying about what colour skin the coaches have. 

 

Take Paul Clement as an example, he came through the coaching ranks starting off with the under 16s at Chelsea, worked his way up to assistant, spent 6 years working with Ancelotti as his assistant and now is taking on his first job as head coach. Clement first started focuses on coaching at the age of 23 and got his UEFA A license at 16 years ago, it's taken him 20 years to get to the point where he feels ready to take on a managerial role. 

[ForeverCarefree]

Black/minority candidates are underrepresented so requiring one to be interviewed is one way of dealing with what is a larger problem in society. Not really an issue in my opinion.

 

But forcing clubs to give interviews, in my opinion isn't the answer. 

 

The cynic in me says that some clubs are going to interview minority candidates who they fully intend not to give the job to. 

 

Sol Campbell is going to be getting interviewed a lot but no one is going to hire him because he's a self entitled, egotistical prat... The club ticks the box of interviewing a minority candidate but it changes nothing. It's an empty gesture and just meaningless. 

[BlueDay]

I don't understand how anyone can think this is a good idea. It is completely flawed and won't really change anything.

The reason there isn't enough black managers is because hardly any of them have a good record. No one in their right mind will hire John Barnes after his terrible spells whereas Chris Hughton did a good job at Newcastle and so got several job offers elsewhere.... The same as any white manager.

[Droogba]

It's about equity as well equality.

Education thing is because, for many years, it was said, 'oh boys are slower'. This becomes a prophecy fulfilled by lack of expectation.

No easy answers, but at least diverse representation is being discussed.

[Valerie]

I would say as a rule their is a bit of lack of top quality British coaches right now, where are the young upcoming coaches/managers? I would like to see more efforts put into increasing the quality and standard of coaching rather than worrying about what colour skin the coaches have.

Take Paul Clement as an example, he came through the coaching ranks starting off with the under 16s at Chelsea, worked his way up to assistant, spent 6 years working with Ancelotti as his assistant and now is taking on his first job as head coach. Clement first started focuses on coaching at the age of 23 and got his UEFA A license at 16 years ago, it's taken him 20 years to get to the point where he feels ready to take on a managerial role.

I agree about your point of putting more effort into the standard of coaching. Education, education, education, that's one of the best ways to improve things from grassroot level working its way up. The good ones will profit and get the top jobs, the bad ones will fade away, the average ones will earn a decent living in lower and non-professional leagues and schools.

The time it has taken Paul Clement to be the main man in a club by working hard and gaining experience, making him a manager players will listen to and respectt, would be about the same time it takes someone to climb the ladder in business, government, medicine, you name it. Sure, there are examples of meteoric rises to the top, but for most people it takes time.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Valerie

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I don't understand how anyone can think this is a good idea. It is completely flawed and won't really change anything.

The reason there isn't enough black managers is because hardly any of them have a good record. No one in their right mind will hire John Barnes after his terrible spells whereas Chris Hughton did a good job at Newcastle and so got several job offers elsewhere.... The same as any white manager.

Spot on

I'm getting sick of this bollocks tbh, managers should be interviewed on merit not because they're are part of a group. We talk about not wanting to discriminate and treat everyone as equals but all this does it basically point out that people have different ethnicities and skin colour. Aren't we supposed to all simple be human beings? If you ask me this just makes things more racist.

[BlueDay]

Spot on

I'm getting sick of this bollocks tbh, managers should be interviewed on merit not because they're are part of a group. We talk about not wanting to discriminate and treat everyone as equals but all this does it basically point out that people have different ethnicities and skin colour. Aren't we supposed to all simple be human beings? If you ask me this just makes things more racist.

Exactly, the Rooney role now discriminates white managers if anything.

How many black managers will now get interviews for positions at top 4 clubs after narrowly avoiding relegation with Wycombe Wanderers....

[Blue Daze]

But forcing clubs to give interviews, in my opinion isn't the answer. 

 

The cynic in me says that some clubs are going to interview minority candidates who they fully intend not to give the job to. 

 

Sol Campbell is going to be getting interviewed a lot but no one is going to hire him because he's a self entitled, egotistical prat... The club ticks the box of interviewing a minority candidate but it changes nothing. It's an empty gesture and just meaningless. 

 

The problem is there isn't an answer. This is a flawed answer to an impossible question and one that has roots that go far beyond football, but it's better than nothing. 

 

Lets be honest, many companies will interview people they don't intend to hire for a number of reasons. Sometimes it's just to get some new ideas, but often it's a case of taking a punt on someone and hoping to be surprised. Forcing football clubs, which can be horrendously behind the times in some cases, simply to interview a candidate from a minority background is not a bad thing. They're not forced to hire them at the end of it.

 

What it might do is change the culture at certain clubs, or even lead to some candidates impressing so much that they're hired. There are clear flaws however, one of which being an individual might simply be brought in by multiple clubs just to fill a quota. But I don't see a reason to object to this particular idea. 

[Chelsbear]

Spot on

I'm getting sick of this bollocks tbh, managers should be interviewed on merit not because they're are part of a group. We talk about not wanting to discriminate and treat everyone as equals but all this does it basically point out that people have different ethnicities and skin colour. Aren't we supposed to all simple be human beings? If you ask me this just makes things more racist.

Yup.

It's another stupid idea from people who clearly have no clue.

[bluedave]

I can't imagine forcing clubs to interview token black candidates is going to help much. To me a better approach would be to proactively encourage more black players to go into coaching/management after playing, and that way provide a naturally larger resource of black coaches and managers. The high proportion of black players in the EPL tells me that the modern game (in this country at least) is not inherently racist.

 

One of the worst things about this scheme (even if it's not implemented, just getting people talking about it is enough) is that it will give white males who like to bang on about how they are the most discriminated against ethnic group something to moan about.

[ForeverCarefree]

I can't imagine forcing clubs to interview token black candidates is going to help much. To me a better approach would be to proactively encourage more black players to go into coaching/management after playing, and that way provide a naturally larger resource of black coaches and managers. The high proportion of black players in the EPL tells me that the modern game (in this country at least) is not inherently racist.

 

 

That's a good point, it's all well and good saying that black managers aren't being giving coaching roles but what % of qualified coaches in Britain are black? 

 

Those who are of a coaching age who might be ex players will possibly have played during an era where racism was more prevalent and may not have wanted to continue being involved in football for that reason. 

 

You've now got the likes of your Hasselbaink's, Chris Powell's, Sol Campbell's etc who have finished playing and moving into coaching during a much more tolerable and open minded society and era in the sport. As such opportunities are more likely to present themselves if they're good enough. 

 

You can't just say "Only six black managers are currently employed at the 72 League clubs" and say "it's not good enough, more black coaches need jobs". What if there is a very small percentage of qualified black coaches? It might be that as a percentage 6 in 72 is actually an over representation of qualified coaches, who knows? 

 

I really think this needs to go much deeper than just saying "black coaches aren't getting jobs"....

[Blue Daze]

I can't imagine forcing clubs to interview token black candidates is going to help much. To me a better approach would be to proactively encourage more black players to go into coaching/management after playing, and that way provide a naturally larger resource of black coaches and managers. The high proportion of black players in the EPL tells me that the modern game (in this country at least) is not inherently racist.

 

 

Absolutely agree that this scheme shouldn't be in isolation and that it has to be done alongside other initiatives but it isn't just the manager role that is being considered. Academy coaching positions will also be subject to this. Think we have to remember that not all clubs are as progressive as our's. 

 

 

One of the worst things about this scheme (even if it's not implemented, just getting people talking about it is enough) is that it will give white males who like to bang on about how they are the most discriminated against ethnic group something to moan about.

 

Absolutely agree....mentioning no names.

[RichardCFC]

I agree that other things need to be looked at such as encouraging more ex black players into management. Having said that, I don't think it is as bad a thing as some are suggesting. They only have to interview one minority candidate - whether they hire them or not is up to them. It could be that a black candidate impresses in an interview and gets the job, meaning it could increase the numbers without actually forcing clubs to hire them.

 

FWIW, I don't think positive discrimination is inherently a bad thing like some are suggesting. It has worked and is most effective in some fields. In football, I'm not sure if it's necessary or not.

 

Overall, I think that different methods need to be looked at as this won't be that effective but I don't see it as a bad thing.

[Stim]

Sol Campbell is going to be getting interviewed a lot but no one is going to hire him because he's a self entitled, egotistical prat... The club ticks the box of interviewing a minority candidate but it changes nothing. It's an empty gesture and just meaningless. 

 

And then he will come out and say why he didn't get the jobs. Two guesses what his excuse will be.

[Jonty]

I don't really have an issue with it to be honest, all it imposes is that clubs give one extra candidate an interview, hardly a massive burden, and if it keeps idiots like Sol Cambpell quiet than why not.

 

Maybe a few clubs will stumble upon great candidates they previously wouldn't have considered through this process too.

[ForeverCarefree]

I agree that other things need to be looked at such as encouraging more ex black players into management. Having said that, I don't think it is as bad a thing as some are suggesting. They only have to interview one minority candidate - whether they hire them or not is up to them. It could be that a black candidate impresses in an interview and gets the job, meaning it could increase the numbers without actually forcing clubs to hire them.

 

FWIW, I don't think positive discrimination is inherently a bad thing like some are suggesting. It has worked and is most effective in some fields. In football, I'm not sure if it's necessary or not.

 

Overall, I think that different methods need to be looked at as this won't be that effective but I don't see it as a bad thing.

 

See my issue with this is that the way it is bought up every single season, more than once make it seem like there is this almost conspiracy to stop black coaches getting jobs and the usual suspects (Sol Campbell, John Barnes) chime in with their usual spiel about how they're offered the same opportunities as white coaches but the success stories are there to suggest otherwise. 

 

Putting pressure on League clubs to interview minority candidates isn't progressive to me, it's the opposite, it first and foremost recognises someone on the colour of their skin, not their ability to do a job. 

 

Say we get our own Rooney rule introduced and the League clubs start interviewing token minority candidates, if the number of black managers doesn't increase (which I don't think it will) when the next thing is there will be an inquest into why the clubs are still choosing white coaches and before long there will pressure and almost guilty tripping for clubs to hire black coaches so as not to appear racist and suddenly the best man for the job isn't getting the role, ironically, because of the colour of his skin. 

[bluedave]

That's a good point, it's all well and good saying that black managers aren't being giving coaching roles but what % of qualified coaches in Britain are black? 

 

Those who are of a coaching age who might be ex players will possibly have played during an era where racism was more prevalent and may not have wanted to continue being involved in football for that reason. 

 

You've now got the likes of your Hasselbaink's, Chris Powell's, Sol Campbell's etc who have finished playing and moving into coaching during a much more tolerable and open minded society and era in the sport. As such opportunities are more likely to present themselves if they're good enough. 

 

You can't just say "Only six black managers are currently employed at the 72 League clubs" and say "it's not good enough, more black coaches need jobs". What if there is a very small percentage of qualified black coaches? It might be that as a percentage 6 in 72 is actually an over representation of qualified coaches, who knows? 

 

I really think this needs to go much deeper than just saying "black coaches aren't getting jobs"....

 

Absolutely. Those numbers are meaningless if they don't take into account the size of the 'talent pool'.

 

I'd like to see stats showing what proportion of black managers/coaches are unemployed compared to the greater population. My gut instinct is that there probably won't be much difference. If there is a significant difference then we have a problem.

[Blue Daze]

See my issue with this is that the way it is bought up every single season, more than once make it seem like there is this almost conspiracy to stop black coaches getting jobs and the usual suspects (Sol Campbell, John Barnes) chime in with their usual spiel about how they're offered the same opportunities as white coaches but the success stories are there to suggest otherwise. 

 

Putting pressure on League clubs to interview minority candidates isn't progressive to me, it's the opposite, it first and foremost recognises someone on the colour of their skin, not their ability to do a job. 

 

Say we get our own Rooney rule introduced and the League clubs start interviewing token minority candidates, if the number of black managers doesn't increase (which I don't think it will) when the next thing is there will be an inquest into why the clubs are still choosing white coaches and before long there will pressure and almost guilty tripping for clubs to hire black coaches so as not to appear racist and suddenly the best man for the job isn't getting the role, ironically, because of the colour of his skin. 

 

It sounds more like you have an issue with Sol Campbell and John Barnes rather than the policy of ensuring that one candidate from a certain background is interviewed. The club isn't obliged to hire this candidate, simply consider one from an underrepresented background and also do this at development level so maybe we do get more Paul Clements working their way through.

 

Honestly, I can't see an issue with this in spite of it's flaws.

 

EDIT - Also this isn't the only measure being introduced. There's also a move to identify BAME players and coaches who could potentially move up in the industry. 

 

Not sure why you don't think it will increase the numbers of coaches because the Rooney Rule in the NFL has had exactly that effect. Being colour-blind isn't the way to effect change either. That's a common misconception. What you do is you acknowledge that there is an issue and people are seemingly treated differently and then you look to change that. There is no silver bullet though and any solution is flawed, but I'm not entirely sure what your alternative solution is.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Blue Daze

[Chelsbear]

See my issue with this is that the way it is bought up every single season, more than once make it seem like there is this almost conspiracy to stop black coaches getting jobs and the usual suspects (Sol Campbell, John Barnes) chime in with their usual spiel about how they're offered the same opportunities as white coaches but the success stories are there to suggest otherwise.

Putting pressure on League clubs to interview minority candidates isn't progressive to me, it's the opposite, it first and foremost recognises someone on the colour of their skin, not their ability to do a job.

Say we get our own Rooney rule introduced and the League clubs start interviewing token minority candidates, if the number of black managers doesn't increase (which I don't think it will) when the next thing is there will be an inquest into why the clubs are still choosing white coaches and before long there will pressure and almost guilty tripping for clubs to hire black coaches so as not to appear racist and suddenly the best man for the job isn't getting the role, ironically, because of the colour of his skin.

Great post!

[ForeverCarefree]

It sounds more like you have an issue with Sol Campbell and John Barnes rather than the policy of ensuring that one candidate from a certain background is interviewed. The club isn't obliged to hire this candidate, simply consider one from an underrepresented background and also do this at development level so maybe we do get more Paul Clements working their way through.

 

Honestly, I can't see an issue with this in spite of it's flaws.

 

I have a big issue with the nonsense that Sol Campbell and John Barnes regularly regurgitate on the subject of black coaches in British football but I think I have more than explained my issues with the Rooney rule to go beyond that. If that's all you've taken from my posts in this thread that that's fine. 

[BlueBosnian]

What's next? We are forced to let Mourinho go and hire a black manager to show we're not a racist club because of the Paris incident?

[Blue Daze]

I have a big issue with the nonsense that Sol Campbell and John Barnes regularly regurgitate on the subject of black coaches in British football but I think I have more than explained my issues with the Rooney rule to go beyond that. If that's all you've taken from my posts in this thread that that's fine. 

 

The thing is you've also stated (as I said above) that you don't think things will change when the Rooney Rule in the NFL could be argued to have had a massive impact in seeing the percentage of black head coaches rise from 6% before the rule was introduced to 12.5% (the percentage of the US population that is black is 12.4%) with it reaching a high of 22% at one stage.

 

Did you know any of that?

 

Like I've said, there has to be a clear recognition that minorities are underrepresented in these roles and then you have to decide to take action. Is this action flawless? No. Is any though? Unlikely. Are any of your suggestions? You haven't made any beyond saying that if a millionaire Dutchman can work his way up then why can't everyone? 

 

Well this isn't just about millionaires from ethnic minorities, it's about people at every level in the game being afforded chances that might not exist because it's entirely possible that the game is still institutionally racist at some level.