Tammy Abraham

[coco]

57 minutes ago, Argo said:

Thinking out loud a bit but why are English players so reluctant to go and make a career for themselves abroad? Tomori aside all our players who have gone stay in the EPL.

And it's a running theme going back decades, even when Serie A and La Liga pissed all over the Premier League very few ventured out.

Well for the last 15-20 years the answer is really simple, it's a lot easier to get 8 figure contract at a top 10 EPL club.

[ducavis]

7 hours ago, Nibs said:

 

 

I had high hopes for Abraham but he went backwards last season. He has always had a knack for goals but you do wonder if he has enough about him to be a player who can perform at the top level (Arsenal & West Ham NOT being the top level obviously!)

Last season, he should have been kicking on, but at times he looks far too lightweight, no good up holding up the ball, poor in the air, and spent too much time falling over. Shame, as I would have loved an academy player to become our main striker but just don't see it with Tammy and can see why DCL is thought of as the better players as he does have a more complete striker look about him.

 

 

You could swap “Abraham” for “Pulisic” and you would also be describing the latter’s second season, think it’s called a “sophomore slump”. Issue is the former is a free youth product and managers have no patience in developing him (see CHO), and the latter cost €50m and is assumed to be superior and allowed to make mistakes on the job.

Personally think we might regret this in the long run because he is still way off his peak, and like I said in my original statement; there are very few quality forwards in the 18-25 age range. Off my head; Halaand, then potentially Greenwood. City signed Jesus at 19 and 4 years later he is a work in progress, and I don’t think Pep is getting rid of him anytime soon. I am not against Halaand if we can get him, but keeping Tammy and developing him is a must.

[Deino]

40m is a steal for Arsenal albeit should be his appropriate market value.

He is a solid player, good goals to games ratio but if he was in the same situation Havertz was in the CL final, would he have scored that goal? 

As a squad player, Tammy is good enough but for where we want to go or for what he wants, is it worth keeping him?

In my opinion, he should just stay and focus on developing himself here to become a better well-rounded striker. There shouldn't be any rush to get the starting spot considering his attributes at the moment. It's not like he's the next Harry Kane

[Argo]

8 hours ago, ducavis said:

You could swap “Abraham” for “Pulisic” and you would also be describing the latter’s second season, think it’s called a “sophomore slump”. Issue is the former is a free youth product and managers have no patience in developing him (see CHO), and the latter cost €50m and is assumed to be superior and allowed to make mistakes on the job.

Absolute rubbish. If it was all about age bias, then why did Giroud's minutes go through the floor aswell?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Argo

[ducavis]

41 minutes ago, Argo said:

Absolute rubbish. If it was all about age bias, then why did Giroud's minutes go through the floor aswell?

Not the age bias, more like a youth product bias. A manager would more likely drop/take off a youth product than an expensive signing.

As for Giroud his legs have been gone for 2 years.

[Guest Sindre]

10 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Not the age bias, more like a youth product bias. A manager would more likely drop/take off a youth product than an expensive signing.

As for Giroud his legs have been gone for 2 years.

You do realize Giroud displaced Abraham as first choice in both of Lampards seasons? Was there a bias there too?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Sindre

[Argo]

1 minute ago, ducavis said:

Not the age bias, more like a youth product bias.

Thats another myth that doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.

Tuchel has an array of expensive attacking toys to pick from for his front three yet who's the one untouchable? A converted centre mid from the academy.

James is still playing a lot.

CHO started three league games within Tuchel first week, as many as the previous year. Started the (at the time) biggest game of the season three days after he was "thrown under a bus", a much bigger game than any he was picked for under Sarri or Lamps.

Gilmour is already on more league minutes than under Lamps and he lasted the full 90 minutes against both Fulham and City despite being every shade of sh*te in the former and giving away what would have been but for Aguero's stupidity a top four costing penalty in the latter.

And people forget Christensen is also an academy player, he was half way out the door pre Tuchel and now he's being talked about in the same breath as Thiago.

Tammy is the only one significantly worse off under the new manager.

And that's before we mention there's a lot of smoke that Mando and Sterling are going to be in next season's squad.

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

You do realize Giroud displaced Abraham as first choice in both of Lampards seasons? Was there a bias there too?

In Lampard's first season Giroud was basically not included and he asked to leave but Lampard told him to wait because he overplayed Tammy and when January ended Tammy was burned out and injured so Lampard had no choice but to play Giroud at the time.

In that first season Tammy as a 21-22 year old played his first PL season and scored 15 goals in 34 games, in around 2200minutes played. Yet somehow he is deemed as a not good enough striker but Werner was a big signing and an older player and he had 6 goals in 35 games while playing 400 minutes more and he just kept playing and playing.

[Argo]

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

In Lampard's first season Giroud was basically not included and he asked to leave but Lampard told him to wait because he overplayed Tammy and when January ended Tammy was burned out and injured so Lampard had no choice but to play Giroud at the time.

In that first season Tammy as a 21-22 year old played his first PL season and scored 15 goals in 34 games, in around 2200minutes played. Yet somehow he is deemed as a not good enough striker but Werner was a big signing and an older player and he had 6 goals in 35 games while playing 400 minutes more and he just kept playing and playing.

Then was Tammy still burnt out after the restart?

The simple reality is Lampard chose Oli because he trusted him more when the real business end games came about. It was proven to be a correct decision (one of Lampard's best) but this narrative we had a team brimming with youth players and Tuchel has come in and dismantled it bit by bit is utter nonsense.

[evissy]

I would think Tuchel has given specific drills to Tammy to improve the part of the game that makes Tammy the third choice. I think this is how Tuchel is keeping players relatively satisfied. 

[strider6004]

Tammy started well yet then the defenders wised up to him and stopped him holding up the ball.

So instead crosses along the line and crosses in the air and Tammy could not connect. 

Hope he gets a good move even to Arsenal and it clicks just don't think it will.

 

[Gol15]

35 minutes ago, Argo said:

Then was Tammy still burnt out after the restart?

The simple reality is Lampard chose Oli because he trusted him more when the real business end games came about. It was proven to be a correct decision (one of Lampard's best) but this narrative we had a team brimming with youth players and Tuchel has come in and dismantled it bit by bit is utter nonsense.

Lampard had no choice at the time because he overplayed Tammy that got injured. 

[Argo]

18 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard had no choice at the time because he overplayed Tammy that got injured. 

Tammy was fit and avaliable for selection all through the restart period.

[RMH]

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Then was Tammy still burnt out after the restart?

The simple reality is Lampard chose Oli because he trusted him more when the real business end games came about. It was proven to be a correct decision (one of Lampard's best) but this narrative we had a team brimming with youth players and Tuchel has come in and dismantled it bit by bit is utter nonsense.

But under Lampard the youth had more chances to make it to the first squad. Tuchel has inherited a team where Mount and James were already starters, he came and did not start them in the first game. He then realised what players they are. But, had he not inherited a team with Academy players in it, it's likely that we'd be talking about how gutted we are that Mount is being sold to Derby or loaned to Norwich together with Gilmour (yes, despite Tuchel playing him more than Lampard, he's gone on loan under Tuchel's watch despite not having enough midfielders to rotate this season). Let's see how many Academy players make it this year, and if they get to be starters as Mount and James did under Lamps.

[Gol15]

23 minutes ago, Argo said:

Tammy was fit and avaliable for selection all through the restart period.

That is true but it took him some time to recover, I was just saying that Tammy had a decent first season under Lampard, he isn't as durable as Mount so by half of the season he was out but even so he was capable of leading our attack back then. 

I think that Tuchel doesn't rate him but there is a player there IMHO.

[Argo]

11 minutes ago, RMH said:

But under Lampard the youth had more chances to make it to the first squad. Tuchel has inherited a team where Mount and James were already starters, he came and did not start them in the first game. He then realised what players they are. But, had he not inherited a team with Academy players in it, it's likely that we'd be talking about how gutted we are that Mount is being sold to Derby or loaned to Norwich together with Gilmour (yes, despite Tuchel playing him more than Lampard, he's gone on loan under Tuchel's watch despite not having enough midfielders to rotate this season). Let's see how many Academy players make it this year, and if they get to be starters as Mount and James did under Lamps.

Yes but when Tuchel arrived the conspiracy was he was going to drop them all just because, he hasn't done that infact he's even brought one back from borderline exile.

Regarding Mount, Sarri as good as confirmed in an interview a few weeks back he was bringing Mount in the fold had he stayed.

[Brigadeiro]

People comparing Frank's and TT's youth policy (wrongly imo) also seem to forget the situation we were in when Tuchel had arrived (besides everything @Argoalready pointed out).

When exactly should he be integrating youth in the 1st team? When we were already 9th/10th with 17 games to play in the PL trying to reach 4th? When we were facing Atletico in the CL so we could concentrate in the PL? In the FA Cup which was the only truly realistic salvation to our season? 

Even so he still found a few minutes for Anjorin, had Livramento on the bench iirc... it's not Tuchel's fault that this new generation of players aren't trusting the team to give them a chance. It's both our bloated squad of fringe players from years ago + the overall quality and age of the current team.

We lost Lamptey to Brighton, and it's a shame, but maybe that's exactly what made us win the CL with Azpi there at the right side when he could've been left out as it was starting to happen under Frank. 

 

Anyway, Tammy... Decent striker, good enough for 2nd option at our side considering his upside, but won't stick around for that and good for him. Will wish him all the best wherever he goes. 

 

 

[Gol15]

@Brigadeiro He wouldn't need to leave if he really was treated like the second option but he looked at best like the 3rd option last season, even when we we struggling for goals. So that's not really him that isn't trusting his club to give him the chance it's really the club not trusting in him when all said and done.

He didn't get a proper chance under Tuchel yet. Yes we won the CL and finished top 4 but we're searching for a striker so by the looks of it Tuchel never really considered that Tammy could be a useful player to the squad. 

[ducavis]

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

@Brigadeiro He wouldn't need to leave if he really was treated like the second option but he looked at best like the 3rd option last season, even when we we struggling for goals. So that's not really him that isn't trusting his club to give him the chance it's really the club not trusting in him when all said and done.

He didn't get a proper chance under Tuchel yet. Yes we won the CL and finished top 4 but we're searching for a striker so by the looks of it Tuchel never really considered that Tammy could be a useful player to the squad. 

👏.. thank you. Fans need to stop with the  he is demanding to be a starter, he has never suggested that. Reality is he has only played in 6 PL games in 19 (need to confirm) under Tuchel, playing a paltry 140mins. 
 

 

[Brigadeiro]

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

@Brigadeiro He wouldn't need to leave if he really was treated like the second option but he looked at best like the 3rd option last season, even when we we struggling for goals. So that's not really him that isn't trusting his club to give him the chance it's really the club not trusting in him when all said and done.

He didn't get a proper chance under Tuchel yet. Yes we won the CL and finished top 4 but we're searching for a striker so by the looks of it Tuchel never really considered that Tammy could be a useful player to the squad. 

Oh, I think you got me wrong. When I said youngsters aren't trusting the club, I meant those 16, 17, 18 year old who aren't renewing their contract, because they believe they've a better chance going for a mid-table side instead of going out on loan. Which they're entitled to do, it's well within their power although we'd love them all to stay and replace our Bakayokos, Drinkwaters and Zappas... It's just sad because at 21, players like Jorginho and Kante hadn't made their debuts yet in a top league. Sometimes it does pay off to have some patience. 

 

On Tammy, he is absolutely right on wanting to leave (that is, if he wants to... don't think he said anything clear yet), because atm he's indeed the 3rd option. Maybe not even that. Whether that's fair or not it's up to debate.

I want him to stay as the 2nd option, just don't think he'd settle for being that. I believe that at the start of the season he thought Frank would let him lead the line with Werner being his partner and then things went downhill (for everyone). Tuchel arrived and tried him twice, probably thinking in going with him as the 2nd option, didn't like what he saw in 45 minutes and off he goes to the 3rd option again... So the best decision is letting him go for 40m, so he'll flourish and we'll get money to spend on someone Tuchel will actually use. Hopefully. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Brigadeiro

[Jangz]

5 hours ago, Brigadeiro said:

Oh, I think you got me wrong. When I said youngsters aren't trusting the club, I meant those 16, 17, 18 year old who aren't renewing their contract, because they believe they've a better chance going for a mid-table side instead of going out on loan. Which they're entitled to do, it's well within their power although we'd love them all to stay and replace our Bakayokos, Drinkwaters and Zappas... It's just sad because at 21, players like Jorginho and Kante hadn't made their debuts yet in a top league. Sometimes it does pay off to have some patience. 

 

On Tammy, he is absolutely right on wanting to leave (that is, if he wants to... don't think he said anything clear yet), because atm he's indeed the 3rd option. Maybe not even that. Whether that's fair or not it's up to debate.

I want him to stay as the 2nd option, just don't think he'd settle for being that. I believe that at the start of the season he thought Frank would let him lead the line with Werner being his partner and then things went downhill (for everyone). Tuchel arrived and tried him twice, probably thinking in going with him as the 2nd option, didn't like what he saw in 45 minutes and off he goes to the 3rd option again... So the best decision is letting him go for 40m, so he'll flourish and we'll get money to spend on someone Tuchel will actually use. Hopefully. 

 

Bang on with Tammy.. i think the manager doesnt trust him and he is not a young player.. understand him stalling and wanting to leave.. When Lamps was here there was talk of him for the Euros since then Watkins overtook him. 

[ozboy]

15 hours ago, Argo said:

 

And that's before we mention there's a lot of smoke that Mando and Sterling are going to be in next season's squad.

Mando?

[Gol15]

6 hours ago, Brigadeiro said:

Oh, I think you got me wrong. When I said youngsters aren't trusting the club, I meant those 16, 17, 18 year old who aren't renewing their contract, because they believe they've a better chance going for a mid-table side instead of going out on loan. Which they're entitled to do, it's well within their power although we'd love them all to stay and replace our Bakayokos, Drinkwaters and Zappas... It's just sad because at 21, players like Jorginho and Kante hadn't made their debuts yet in a top league. Sometimes it does pay off to have some patience. 

 

On Tammy, he is absolutely right on wanting to leave (that is, if he wants to... don't think he said anything clear yet), because atm he's indeed the 3rd option. Maybe not even that. Whether that's fair or not it's up to debate.

I want him to stay as the 2nd option, just don't think he'd settle for being that. I believe that at the start of the season he thought Frank would let him lead the line with Werner being his partner and then things went downhill (for everyone). Tuchel arrived and tried him twice, probably thinking in going with him as the 2nd option, didn't like what he saw in 45 minutes and off he goes to the 3rd option again... So the best decision is letting him go for 40m, so he'll flourish and we'll get money to spend on someone Tuchel will actually use. Hopefully. 

I'm sorry for putting that part about the youth together with Tammy.

I guess you can argue that whatever the manager does is fair because it's his job on the line if it doesn't work out but the fact remains that Werner got to play regardless of his failures but Tammy had a very small window of opportunity to show that he can contribute to the team and for Tuchel.

Werner got to start in both the FA Cup final and CL final and also against England in the Euro knockouts and did absolutely nothing but we all believe that it's almost a guarantee that he will improve, at the same time Tammy can't even get on the bench and isn't seen as a player that can improve at all - the question above was implying that there isn't much bias against Tammy but that he's simply not that good, I believe that there has been some bias against him.

[Valerie]

5 hours ago, ozboy said:

Mando?

Armando Broja.

[Argo]

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Werner got to start in both the FA Cup final and CL final and also against England in the Euro knockouts and did absolutely nothing 

Eh? He as good as got an assist for our winner with the way he dragged Ruben Dias out of position to allow Kai Havertz space.

Not to mention his goal against Real Madrid, quality assist against Atletico.