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Tammy Abraham


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26 minutes ago, abramovich said:

Tammy is a midtable level striker at best at this point of his career. He may improve in time, but he's not the Messiah some here claim he is. 

I remember when we were leaking goals and Rudiger was out injured people were hailing him as if he was something between Baresi and Beckenbauer and were desperate for his return. Then he came back and played like sh*te. It's always the same thing, when things aren't working, people look for the easiest explanation. 

Here's what I'd like to ask Tammy fans. Do you really believe we would get into CL and FA Cup finals with Tammy being our first choice striker? 

Werner has been nothing short of shocking in front of goal for months now, there's no denying that. Our other attackers to lesser degree can be accused of the same. The problem with Tammy is, that unlike Werner, he wouldn't even be in a position to convert/or miss those chances, because his movement and anticipation is nowhere near of what's required at this level.

I dont think anyone is claiming he is the messiah, only a striker that has scored goals for us that currently has been totally shunned in a side that currently is desperate for goals from somewhere, and a side where the other strikers/forwards cant be relied upon. 

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15 minutes ago, dkw said:

I dont think anyone is claiming he is the messiah, only a striker that has scored goals for us that currently has been totally shunned in a side that currently is desperate for goals from somewhere, and a side where the other strikers/forwards cant be relied upon. 

There's no nuance to discussion anymore. 

You're either 100% for something or 100% against. 

My personal feeling is that Tammy, despite being marginalised more than any other player since Tuchel took over, is still our top goal scorer. 

Despite that, he can't even get a place on the subs bench. Yesterday we had 2 left backs on the bench whilst our top goal scorer in the competition was completely ommited. 

Then we fail to muster a single telling shot on target for 80 minutes. 

So you'll excuse me for wondering why a player who has a better goal scoring record for Chelsea than anyone else in the squad is completed ostracised by our manager. 

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The situation with Tammy is bizarre. He’s no doubt a better option than Giroud at the moment. As much as Giroud has given us, his last couple of appearances have been bad. I’m no fan of Tammy, but he at least offers more energy and pace than Giroud. There must be something going on behind the scenes for him not to even make the bench.

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3 hours ago, Sindre said:

It's not a particularly good stat to use.

Michy Batshuayi once had a number of 1.77 goals for us for every 90 minute he played.

Tammy's number last season was 0.61. Batshuayi's number when he was at loan at Crystal Palace was 0.60 to use him as an example again.

My point being that a lot of awful strikers can look half decent using that particular stat.

Can also add that Giroud's number for last season was 0.73, so outperforming Abraham.

Again, Batshuayi was always rated as a finisher it was the fact he had nothing else in his locker that was the predominant issue with him. What exactly do you think it’s fair to judge strikers on then? Minutes to goals and conversion of big chances is about as good as you’re going to get from a stats point of view.

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9 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

There's no nuance to discussion anymore. 

You're either 100% for something or 100% against. 

My personal feeling is that Tammy, despite being marginalised more than any other player since Tuchel took over, is still our top goal scorer. 

Despite that, he can't even get a place on the subs bench. Yesterday we had 2 left backs on the bench whilst our top goal scorer in the competition was completely ommited. 

Then we fail to muster a single telling shot on target for 80 minutes. 

So you'll excuse me for wondering why a player who has a better goal scoring record for Chelsea than anyone else in the squad is completed ostracised by our manager. 

What Tammy is to Tuchel is what Alonso was to Lampard this season. Both simply ignore that they have a player that can still bring something for the team.

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18 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

What Tammy is to Tuchel is what Alonso was to Lampard this season. Both simply ignore that they have a player that can still bring something for the team.

The difference being, whether the decision is wrong or right, that the Alonso situation made sense when you considered Lampard's motives and behaviour. It does not for Tuchel. Which is why I won't throw the blame at his feet until I know the full story. 

Tuchel has largely been praised for his decision-making, out-of-the-box thinking and squad rotation. And yet the same people who have praised him for that, think he's simply shunning a proven goalscorer... 

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21 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

What Tammy is to Tuchel is what Alonso was to Lampard this season. Both simply ignore that they have a player that can still bring something for the team.

Alonso stormed off (allegedly) after being subbed at half time against WBA at the start of the season when we were 3-0. 

I've not seen any reports of Abraham having done anything specifically to be put of favour with Tuchel. It looked like he had started to sway him a bit by coming off the bench against West Ham but has since found himself completely left out again. 

You can only assume there's something about Tammy that Tuchel doesn't like. Whether it's workrate in training or attitude or something else. But he's the only one not being given regular chances barring Emerson who is our 3rd choice left back. 

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I'd apply occams razor here: he's just not fitting into TT's system at all - at least in the eyes of TT.

Since Giroud, who I broadly would describe as a similiar type of striker, doesn't play many minutes more either (and for example didn't start the second leg against Atleti although securing the win in the first), I don't think it's something personal at all. That's why I also think both will be gone next season.

I heard 1-2 games ago that Chelsea under Tuchel has the most chances created within the PL. With the game yesterday in mind I think we should still be on top comfortably..that means in general the system works very well. We permit very little chances for the opponent while creating a lot of chances ourselves. I can understand a coach that doesn't really want to jeopardize his system with bringing in a completely different player(profile).

 

As for why Giroud gets the few minutes instead of Tammy: why not? He's much more experienced and hence eventually a bit more cut out to come in late without much time to get into the groove and have an impact. Maybe he appears a tad sharper during training..who knows. Since I believe both will be gone next season I doubt Tuchel plays any mindgames here.

 

 

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On 16/05/2021 at 16:34, EdinburghBlue said:

Again, Batshuayi was always rated as a finisher it was the fact he had nothing else in his locker that was the predominant issue with him. What exactly do you think it’s fair to judge strikers on then? Minutes to goals and conversion of big chances is about as good as you’re going to get from a stats point of view.

Surely it's team metrics first and foremost?

For all his individual faults, under Tuchel both our performances and results have been significantly better in matches he has started, his pace alone scares defenses into dropping their line ten yards.

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18 minutes ago, Argo said:

Surely it's team metrics first and foremost?

For all his individual faults, under Tuchel both our performances and results have been significantly better in matches he has started, his pace alone scares defenses into dropping their line ten yards.

To judge an individual you use team metrics? Djimi Traore won the champions league. Michael Ballack never - does that mean the former is a better player? No. Using team statistics to judge individual players is not even remotely accurate.

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8 minutes ago, Argo said:

Surely it's team metrics first and foremost?

For all his individual faults, under Tuchel both our performances and results have been significantly better in matches he has started, his pace alone scares defenses into dropping their line ten yards.

If you mean Werner compared to Tammy, a big factor is also the sheer number of minutes played as well.

Tammy played in only 3 games as a starter, in all of those Werner was also a starter and a key difference is that against Newcastle Tammy was subbed off after 20 minutes due to injury and later on Werner scored a goal, in the other 2 games where Tammy started he was subbed off after 45 minutes and in those games (Burnley and Southampton) Werner didn't do much either but he played more minutes. Other than those 3 games, Tammy was involved a little bit as a sub here and there and notably missed a header against West Ham but our performances are better under Tuchel mainly because of our better defense.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

To judge an individual you use team metrics? Djimi Traore won the champions league. Michael Ballack never - does that mean the former is a better player? No. Using team statistics to judge individual players is not even remotely accurate.

Well if we're winning more football matches and looking more threatening as a team with him then without then that's what ultimately matters more than anything else. 

We're a better team with him on the pitch under TT, the sample size is very big at this point.

Edited by Argo
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2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If you mean Werner compared to Tammy, a big factor is also the sheer number of minutes played as well.

I'm talking about Werner in his own right.

Nearly all our worst performances under Tuchel have come in games he didn't start.

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Just now, Argo said:

I'm talking about Werner in his own right.

Nearly all our worst performances under Tuchel have come in games he didn't start.

We lost 4 games under Tuchel and Werner played in 2 of those games, he was a starter against West Brom and against Leicester City in the Fa Cup final, arguably our worst performances. A similar argument can be made for Rudiger, he didn't play against Arsenal nor against West Brom but was in the lineup in the second leg vs Porto and in the FA Cup final.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Argo said:

I'm talking about Werner in his own right.

Nearly all our worst performances under Tuchel have come in games he didn't start.

Wasn't there a stat some time ago that showed the impact of with/without Jorgi playing? I'd like to see something like that for Werner (but am way too lazy to do it myself) because I suspect the same as you.

Of course he's some kind of Donald Duck right now but still: he's the guy that shoots the offside goals, the handball goals, misses crazy sitters and get's pens (or not) and assists quite a few as well too - not to mention his extreme work-rate which also contributes to our defensive stability. I just don't see a Tammy/Werner switch as the obvious thing to do, far from. If anything, Tuchel would have to abandon his back 3/5 system and play with Tammy alongside Werner, which I could perfectly see btw. But that ship has sailed long ago and I'd say rightly so too. Next season we'll see but barring any catastrophies within the last two games I'd be amazed if Tuchel would permanently switch his system come next season.

Edited by weetee
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5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

We lost 4 games under Tuchel and Werner played in 2 of those games, he was a starter against West Brom and against Leicester City in the Fa Cup final, arguably our worst performances. A similar argument can be made for Rudiger, he didn't play against Arsenal nor against West Brom but was in the lineup in the second leg vs Porto and in the FA Cup final.

 

3 minutes ago, weetee said:

Wasn't there a stat some time ago that showed the impact of with/without Jorgi playing? I'd like to see something like that for Werner (but am way too lazy to do it myself) because I suspect the same as you.

I did it on here a few weeks ago so I'll go back and update it further and run a bit deeper into it.

WITH

W 2-0 Burnley

W 1-0 Spurs

W 2-1 Sheffield United

W 2-0 Newcastle

D 1-1 Saints

W 1-0 Atletico

W 1-0 Liverpool

W 2-0 Everton

W 2-0 Atletico

L 2-5 West Brom

W 2-0 Porto

W 1-0 Man City

W 1-0 West Ham

D 1-1 Real Madrid

W 2-0 Fulham

W 2-0 Real Madrid

W 2-1 Man City

L 0-1 Leicester

W 2-1 Leicester

P19 W15 D2 L2 we scored in every game and bar West Brom, Saints, Leicester and too an extent Porto all of them were good performances.

WITHOUT

D 0-0 Wolves

D 0-0 Man United (you could quite obviously tell United felt more comfortable pushing their line up without his presence)

D 0-0 Leeds

W 4-1 Crystal Palace (the outlier performance without him)

D 0-0 Brighton

W 1-0 Barnsley

W 2-0 Sheffield United

L 0-1 Porto

L 0-1 Arsenal

P9 W3 D4 L2

All of them bar one were drab attacking displays.

Only once in 19 games we have failed to score with Werner on the teamsheet compared to 6 out of the 9 games he hasn't started. Our results when he starts games is title winning form, our results when he doesn't is lower mid table form.

This part can create a bit more debate but in my view 15 of the 19 games he started were good team performances whereas only 1 of the 9 he didn't start in were good performances.

There's a quite clear correlation emerging between Werner being in the line up and not and it's why he keeps getting "so many chances".

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3 minutes ago, Argo said:

 

I did it on here a few weeks ago so I'll go back and update it further and run a bit deeper into it.

WITH

W 2-0 Burnley

W 1-0 Spurs

W 2-1 Sheffield United

W 2-0 Newcastle

D 1-1 Saints

W 1-0 Atletico

W 1-0 Liverpool

W 2-0 Everton

W 2-0 Atletico

L 2-5 West Brom

W 2-0 Porto

W 1-0 Man City

W 1-0 West Ham

D 1-1 Real Madrid

W 2-0 Fulham

W 2-0 Real Madrid

W 2-1 Man City

L 0-1 Leicester

W 2-1 Leicester

P19 W15 D2 L2 we scored in every game and bar West Brom, Saints, Leicester and too an extent Porto all of them were good performances.

WITHOUT

D 0-0 Wolves

D 0-0 Man United (you could quite obviously tell United felt more comfortable pushing their line up without his presence)

D 0-0 Leeds

W 4-1 Crystal Palace (the outlier performance without him)

D 0-0 Brighton

W 1-0 Barnsley

W 2-0 Sheffield United

L 0-1 Porto

L 0-1 Arsenal

P9 W3 D4 L2

All of them bar one were drab attacking displays.

Only once in 19 games we have failed to score with Werner on the teamsheet compared to 6 out of the 9 games he hasn't started. Our results when he starts games is title winning form, our results when he doesn't is lower mid table form.

This part can create a bit more debate but in my view 15 of the 19 games he started were good team performances whereas only 1 of the 9 he didn't start in were good performances.

There's a quite clear correlation emerging between Werner being in the line up and not and it's why he keeps getting "so many chances".

So when you say that we play better with him in the lineup you're actually pointing out that he basically played most of the time and we were doing fine as a team most of the time with him... That's different from saying that our worst team performances under Tuchel were mostly when Werner didn't play, because he did play in at least half of our worst results which were also some of our worst performances as a team as well, that isn't most of the time without Werner.

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28 minutes ago, Argo said:

Well if we're winning more football matches and looking more threatening as a team with him then without then that's what ultimately matters more than anything else. 

We're a better team with him on the pitch under TT, the sample size is very big at this point.

How is the sample size very big when he’s the only one racking up large amounts of minutes? For all you or I know if Tammy/Giroud got Werners minutes - they could have 20 goals and we could be comfortably in second or third and we’ve scored an extra 15 goals then suddenly we’re more dangerous with them in the team. It’s hypothetical - without anyone else getting a decent crack of the whip, we have no way of knowing how much more dangerous we could be. 
 

You’re not answering my question about my original post you replied to - Liverpool won more CL’s with Traore in the squad than us and Bayern did with Ballack? Is he a better player? We won more PL’s with Victor Moses than Steven Gerrard did at Liverpool. Is he a better player? Team metrics do not equal an individual players ability.


Timo has a role to play, I’m not disputing that but if you think his goalscoring is acceptable for a number 9 you’re welcome to keep kidding yourself on. I’m not gonna waste anymore time going over the same ground with you.

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4 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

It’s hypothetical - without anyone else getting a decent crack of the whip, we have no way of knowing how much more dangerous we could be. 

Giroud actually played quite a bit to begin with though.

Started against Wolves, Sheffield Utd x2, Newcastle, Atletico and ManUtd in February and March.

Abraham less so as we all know but also started against Burnley, Barnsley and Southampton early on.

I think it's fair to say we look better now than we did then.

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4 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Giroud actually played quite a bit to begin with though.

Started against Wolves, Sheffield Utd x2, Newcastle, Atletico and ManUtd in February and March.

Abraham less so as we all know but also started against Burnley, Barnsley and Southampton early on.

I think it's fair to say we look better now than we did then.

You and I have vastly different opinions of a decent crack of the whip if you’re saying Abrahams combined 180 minutes is sufficient 😂 he also scored the winner in the one game he played beyond HT.

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4 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

You and I have vastly different opinions of a decent crack of the whip if you’re saying Abrahams combined 180 minutes is sufficient 😂 he also scored the winner in the one game he played beyond HT.

No it's not a lot.

But I meant between Giroud & Abraham combined. They are similar in many ways and give you an idea of how we'd look with either of them on the pitch when one play.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

How is the sample size very big when he’s the only one racking up large amounts of minutes? For all you or I know if Tammy/Giroud got Werners minutes - they could have 20 goals and we could be comfortably in second or third and we’ve scored an extra 15 goals then suddenly we’re more dangerous with them in the team. It’s hypothetical - without anyone else getting a decent crack of the whip, we have no way of knowing how much more dangerous we could be. 
 

You’re not answering my question about my original post you replied to - Liverpool won more CL’s with Traore in the squad than us and Bayern did with Ballack? Is he a better player? We won more PL’s with Victor Moses than Steven Gerrard did at Liverpool. Is he a better player? Team metrics do not equal an individual players ability.


Timo has a role to play, I’m not disputing that but if you think his goalscoring is acceptable for a number 9 you’re welcome to keep kidding yourself on. I’m not gonna waste anymore time going over the same ground with you.

Because one fluke CL win when the team is not exactly the same, if Liverpool had title winning results and clean sheets galore with him playing but bottom half table results and lots of leaked goals without him then we can make the comparison. As for Moses, had he carried on his level from that season he would be a top class wingback but unfortunately he reverted to type.

For me there's a direct correlation between his selection and the team performances, his pace alone scares teams into dropping their line.

Another example would be Roberto Firmino, he will be a lot harder for Liverpool to replace than Mane and even Salah but doesn't get half the credit those two and even Jota get because he doesn't have the numbers.

Edited by Argo
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1 minute ago, Sindre said:

No it's not a lot.

But I meant between Giroud & Abraham combined. They are similar in many ways and give you an idea of how we'd look with either of them on the pitch when one play.

I disagree, as I said it’s all hypothetical because you then need to take in to account rotation in other positions. For example, Barnsley we had Emerson, Alonso, Zouma, Ziyech, Kepa & Gilmour in the starting 11. 6 of the 10 players Tammy played with in that game aren’t regular starters in a game like last night for example. That’s why I’m saying team metrics are stupid for an individual as it’s also heavily weighted by the players they have around them.

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