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Final words on Mourinho, KDB, Lukaku and anything else


Eton Blue at the Chelsea Megastore

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well....I was determined not to dip my oar in to this thread for two reasons: first because there was an existing thread & because albeit that some obviously want closure, perhaps finality even, concerning Jose, the reality is that his tenures, successes & failures at chels will be the subject of discussion for some years to come. Of course that'll wax & wane depending upon how we acquit ourselves into the future but rest assured, the successes & failures of every other manager who graces our club will always be compared and/or contrasted as against what Jose achieved here. Why? Because he was instrumental in redefining chels (even after his first tenure) & because he mostly delivered: the abundant silverware is testament to that: and the fact remains that he along with Fergie are the over-arching fathers of modern english football. Accordingly, like him or loathe him, respect him or slate him, any rhetoric that seeks to downplay the enormous influence & success that he has had over the last decade or so at this club is not only at times completely disingenuous but in some cases, downright foolish and even nasty. It's got to the stage where sometimes I just shake my head forlornly when I read certain posts on this thread & on many others concerning the on-going disparagement of Jose.

 

he has made mistakes - which manager doesn't? It's a high pressure/high stakes existence. Moreover, who of any us from day to day don't make mistakes in what we do? We all do, possibly every day.

 

is he culpable all by himself for where we find ourselves at present? Of course not. And not one of us who has stood by him has ever said otherwise.

 

and I get angry at times when I see posters splitting hairs, cherry-picking, dissembling into trivialities or downright lying concerning Jose's achievements with us and with the other clubs that he has managed.

 

is it too much to ask for some decency & perspective from some posters concerning the man? Perhaps it is. But I tell you what - when the better players at this club, porto, inter & real are asked for their thoughts on how instrumental Jose was in terms of their understanding & awareness it's usually pretty complimentary & with very few naysayers among them. In more recent days, Fabregas has been truthful & complimentary of Jose; Lukaku has stated that he would like the opportunity of playing under him again; even Gerrard has voiced his disappointment at never being able to play for him. And I have to say to all the naysayers concerning Jose that I put a lot more stock in the opinions of those who've played for him down the years & what they say than those who actively disparage him or seek to downplay his many achievements over the years.

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I haven't waded into this debate (or posted much on here at all recently, actually) but I feel this is a good thread to throw my thoughts in and move on.

 

Mourinho

During his first spell here, undoubtedly one of the world's best 3 managers. However what I feel people keep missing is that football changes and managers need to adapt - look at Van Gaal, clearly a world class manager in the 90s but such a disappointment at Manure.

 

Since Mou's last spell here, the focus in football seems to have moved from defence to attack. Just look at our defensive records in his first two seasons compared to the last few (as well as any league winning teams); back then a 0.5 goal/game striker was considered incredible - look at what Suarez and Aguero have been doing in recent seasons. Here's a great article on it by Gary Neville

 

Now, I don't think it's contentious to say that Mourinho is a defensive coach. He's clearly more comfortable setting up defensively and seems to feel that it allows him more control over his team and when the game is no longer as defensive as it once was, he's no longer as good as he once was. Since his treble with Inter, he's won a cup and a league in Spain (impressively beating Barca to the league but it was a two horse race with the other manager clearly burnt out and weary) and done the same here - limping over the finish line with defensive football.

 

I think defensively he's still the best coach out there but until we go back to being all about defence, he's not in the top 3.

 

Personality wise - he's always been one to deflect blame, make excuses and be petty. The Eva fiasco is embarrassing and sickening. Not because I like her for the way she looks, but because it's a horrendous way to treat a professional doing their job. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a massive part of the reason our squad has underperformed - look at the Wilkins sacking and the way the players seem to have reacted to that one. The "he loves this club" bullsh*t is self serving tripe that people lap up because they want it to be true. If he loved this club he wouldn't have been clamouring for the Utd job the moment he got sacked.

 

Transfers

Utterly dismayed at the sale of Mata. It's a consolation that he's not doing well at Manure for reasons I can't ascertain - but I am certain he'd have succeeded here with a different manager. He's not hugely different to Fabregas - slightly less robust, more mobile, better in the final third and had excellent chemistry with Hazard/Oscar. Couldn't play in a midfield 2, but would be fine in a midfield 3 with Matic and Oscar/Ramires (which we seemed to play last season). People write this off as "we got better" - yes, we did, but it was very short term thinking. Building the team slightly differently with his involvement would have produced far better results imo.

 

KDB - If Mata was sold to accommodate this guy, I'd have accepted it I suppose. More suitable to playing slightly deeper than Mata (though not sure he'd be good in a midfield 2, sure he can play in a 3). Pure example of Mourinho's stubbornness/favouritism imo. Ball dropped. Oh well.

 

Lukaku - Mismanaged by Mourinho, but would have our fans baying for his blood had he stayed. Watched him miss chance after chance against Manure on the weekend; he's only 23 in a few weeks so it's something you should expect and be patient with. But our fans wouldn't have that patience - I remember seeing Sturridge at the same age miss a couple of more difficult chances, some good saves, against West Brom and came on here to see him getting torn a new one by the fans. And that was only a league match. Still think it was a mistake to sell him, but Costa is the finished article which seems to be the only thing our fans will accept, and Lukaku would have been booed by our fans way before reaching the level he's currently at.

 

Other - some transfers have been laughable. Lets buy Salah and Cuadrado, give them 10 mins here and there without letting them get into any sort of rhythm (players always talk about the rhythm being important) and then loan/sell them at a huge loss because they haven't set the world alight. Lets buy one of the best LBs in the world but continue playing our incredible RB at LB, and let the really slow, defensively suspect CB continue at RB. Then sell him back for a fraction of the price! These all look like Mourinho signings, and the lack of opportunity is his doing.

 

Last summer's lack of investment again looks to me like partially Mourinho. People are quick to point the finger at the board for the signings, which they do have the final say on but from the profile of players we have signed, the ones we have sold etc I think it's very obvious that Mourinho has a large say in things. He was stuck on Stones and Pogba and the club tried to get them but failed. In Stones' case we pushed real hard for what he wanted but didn't pay over the odds and signed Djibodji as a last minute alternative - perhaps not the best signing but how many other good CBs can you get last minute like that? Bear in mind we still had JT, Cahill, Zouma and Ivan all capable of playing CB at a high level so it's not like we desperately needed to buy.

 

Not absolving the board of any responsibility here, but I've seen too many posts here making excuses for Mourinho when it's clear that he had a very large part to play in all this.

 

Final word - saw someone claiming that Mourinho would have made Stones far better. Are we forgetting David Luiz? I was/am a big fan of the guy and was excited to see Mourinho turn him into a world class CB but he seemed to give up on that one pretty quickly.

Edited by Samdwich
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Final word - saw someone claiming that Mourinho would have made Stones far better. Are we forgetting David Luiz? I was/am a big fan of the guy and was excited to see Mourinho turn him into a world class CB but he seemed to give up on that one pretty quickly.

 

You've put an lot of effort into that post and it's good although I think most of the points have been covered before. The people who agree will like it, the people who disagree won't and some might even take it point by point but again, those points have been covered.

 

This last one is probably aimed at me. David Luiz would've been 26 when Jose took over I believe, so I'm not sure it's quite the same as taking a young defender who is still very much learning the game at 21. Even if we set that to one side, coming to a conclusion that he might not have turned Stones into a world class defender because he plays a bit like Luiz is a bit of a leap in my opinion.

 

They're both ball-playing defenders but I don't think (based on what I've seen so far) they have similar mentalities when approaching the game. Even if they were similar, you're talking about getting a player who is still in that 'sponge' stage of their development (sucking up information) and moulding them. It could've gone either way but I think there's important distinctions to be made.

Edited by ShedEnder91
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Final word - saw someone claiming that Mourinho would have made Stones far better. Are we forgetting David Luiz? I was/am a big fan of the guy and was excited to see Mourinho turn him into a world class CB but he seemed to give up on that one pretty quickly.

 

::clap2::

 

Excellent post - hard to disagree with any of it. Although that final word - the immediate expression that springs to mind - "You can't polish a turd"!!

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::clap2::

 

Excellent post - hard to disagree with any of it. Although that final word - the immediate expression that springs to mind - "You can't polish a turd"!!

 

Do you honestly believe John Stones is 'a turd'? Come on mate, he's a good young player with potential to be top class.

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You've put an lot of effort into that post and it's good although I think most of the points have been covered before. The people who agree will like it, the people who disagree won't and some might even take it point by point but again, those points have been covered.

 

This last one is probably aimed at me. David Luiz would've been 26 when Jose took over I believe, so I'm not sure it's quite the same as taking a young defender who is still very much learning the game at 21. Even if we set that to one side, coming to a conclusion that he might not have turned Stones into a world class defender because he plays a bit like Luiz is a bit of a leap in my opinion.

 

They're both ball-playing defenders but I don't think (based on what I've seen so far) they have similar mentalities when approaching the game. Even if they were similar, you're talking about getting a player who is still in that 'sponge' stage of their development (sucking up information) and moulding them. It could've gone either way but I think there's important distinctions to be made.

Fair point re: age and development stage, but I just don't feel that I've seen enough/any evidence of Mourinho showing patience with players who have mistakes in them, or youth, to think that he'd have done much with Stones. To my mind he isn't very tolerant of players making mistakes - something I felt evident in Cuadrado's cameos last season. As such, I think Stones would have been thrown down the pecking order as soon as he made an error or two.

 

 

Only thing I forgot to add to the original post is that when Mourinho came, I was hopeful that he'd be able to build something lasting. I felt that this was a big test to see if he could last more than his usual 3 seasons, unfortunately he's let me down.

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::clap2::

 

Excellent post - hard to disagree with any of it. Although that final word - the immediate expression that springs to mind - "You can't polish a turd"!!

In my opinion the main reason he gave up on luiz was he was and never will be a central defender......ever.

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In my opinion the main reason he gave up on luiz was he was and never will be a central defender......ever.

 

I disagree, but if not a CB then surely there's enough ability in there to turn him into something very useful? A box to box bully, or a DM of some sort?

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You say we didn't need to buy a defender because....

 Bear in mind we still had JT, Cahill, Zouma and Ivan all capable of playing CB at a high level so it's not like we desperately needed to buy.

 

 

But then you hear some people say things like Ivanovic is a

 

really slow, defensively suspect CB 

 

which might be an issue because

 

Mourinho is a defensive coach. 

 

Then when it comes to transfers you say you're...

Not absolving the board of any responsibility here,

 

 but the absolve them of some responsibility by saying...

 

Last summer's lack of investment again looks to me like partially Mourinho. 

 

Truth is that we've had a very small net spend over the last two years and when Jose left what did we do? Sold another squad member for £25 million and didn't replace him despite us having the Champions League, FA Cup and European spots in the league to play for. 

 

 

Like I said it's a decent post that covers a lot but I think there's a distinct anti-Jose bias which is fine. We all have our own biases no matter however objective we try to be. I think that it's also natural to put the blame for things going wrong on people who aren't here anymore because that means the problem is solved, we can move on to winning the league again.

 

The more troubling proposition is if the problems repeat themselves, as we've seen happening in a number of areas at this club. It's not the first time we've tried to cut our transfer spending without having an adequate strategy to replace it. Both Jose and Ancelotti suffered with that. There are other issues to, but personally I believe that if we recognised that hiring Jose was a mistake then the people making those decisions have to bear some of the responsibility too. All we've done is change the coach and keep the system the same. If people think that fundamental changes will occur after that then I wish I shared their optimism.

 

Again, interesting post.

Edited by ShedEnder91
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Ahh the old Luiz debate. Where people who can't think for themselves were made to believe that Luiz was terrible and wasn't a centre back by the media. This despite him being no different from Carvalho in style of play and proving the theory wrong every day at PSG.

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Fair point re: age and development stage, but I just don't feel that I've seen enough/any evidence of Mourinho showing patience with players who have mistakes in them, or youth, to think that he'd have done much with Stones. To my mind he isn't very tolerant of players making mistakes - something I felt evident in Cuadrado's cameos last season. As such, I think Stones would have been thrown down the pecking order as soon as he made an error or two.

 

 

Only thing I forgot to add to the original post is that when Mourinho came, I was hopeful that he'd be able to build something lasting. I felt that this was a big test to see if he could last more than his usual 3 seasons, unfortunately he's let me down.

 

That's fair enough. I disagree and let's be honest, a lot of people thought Stones on last season's form would've been an upgrade on Ivanovic and Cahill at least. This season has been a tough one but bear in mind he put in a transfer request to leave and has spent the season in an injury-riddled defence coached by Roberto Martinez. John Stones is regarded very differently now than he was last May.

 

Plus Jose did bring in and improve Zouma so it could've gone that way too, and considering the ages of the players I'd have thought he would have been a better comparison than a 26 year old David Luiz.

 

Ahh the old Luiz debate. Where people who can't think for themselves were made to believe that Luiz was terrible and wasn't a centre back by the media. This despite him being no different from Carvalho in style of play and proving the theory wrong every day at PSG.

 

I'd take Ricci over Luiz every day of the week. 

 

That's 7 days. One for every goal Germany put past him and Brazil in one of the most inept defensive performances you're ever likely to see.

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I disagree, but if not a CB then surely there's enough ability in there to turn him into something very useful? A box to box bully, or a DM of some sort?

Possibly a right back, maybe a box to box. Never anything that requires positional and tactical discipline.

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Ahh the old Luiz debate. Where people who can't think for themselves were made to believe that Luiz was terrible and wasn't a centre back by the media. This despite him being no different from Carvalho in style of play and proving the theory wrong every day at PSG.

Can't think for themselves? Then claim he was no different to carvalho? Rriigghhtt.

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Ricky Carvalho was arguably the finest centre back to ever come over a play in the premier league. David Luiz although a very talented footballer, he was nowhere near as good as Carvalho at defending. The only thing they had in common was big hair.

 

Luiz was not good enough for a defensive role in the first team and Matic at that time was also a better midfielder too.

 

Luiz may look good defending in France with 10 great players around him but at the top level he is a liability. Just see Brazil v Germany.

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You say we didn't need to buy a defender because....

 

But then you hear some people say things like Ivanovic is a

 

 

which might be an issue because

 

Then when it comes to transfers you say you're...

 

 but the absolve them of some responsibility by saying...

 

 

Truth is that we've had a very small net spend over the last two years and when Jose left what did we do? Sold another squad member for £25 million and didn't replace him despite us having the Champions League, FA Cup and European spots in the league to play for. 

 

 

Like I said it's a decent post that covers a lot but I think there's a distinct anti-Jose bias which is fine. We all have our own biases no matter however objective we try to be. I think that it's also natural to put the blame for things going wrong on people who aren't here anymore because that means the problem is solved, we can move on to winning the league again.

 

The more troubling proposition is if the problems repeat themselves, as we've seen happening in a number of areas at this club. It's not the first time we've tried to cut our transfer spending without having an adequate strategy to replace it. Both Jose and Ancelotti suffered with that. There are other issues to, but personally I believe that if we recognised that hiring Jose was a mistake then the people making those decisions have to bear some of the responsibility too. All we've done is change the coach and keep the system the same. If people think that fundamental changes will occur after that then I wish I shared their optimism.

 

Again, interesting post.

 

Net spend means nothing if you're actively weakening the squad.

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Carvalho was about 8 billion times the defensive player that Luiz will ever be.

 

 

Luiz is quite possibly (even probably) the superior footballer, but I wouldn't trust him anywhere deeper than attacking midfielder, and even have a suspicion that he might make a decent emergency forward.

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You say we didn't need to buy a defender because....

 

But then you hear some people say things like Ivanovic is a

 

which might be an issue because

 

Hah, you've got me there. He is too slow and as a result is defensively suspect at RB, he's good at CB imo - I think he's demonstrated as much recently. Mourinho has never had trouble using slow CBs as he uses a low block and Ivan would likely be utilised next to JT if needed.

 

 

 

Then when it comes to transfers you say you're...

 

 but the absolve them of some responsibility by saying...

 

 

Truth is that we've had a very small net spend over the last two years and when Jose left what did we do? Sold another squad member for £25 million and didn't replace him despite us having the Champions League, FA Cup and European spots in the league to play for.

 

I don't absolve the board of all responsibility, nor do I think it's entirely (or even mostly) their fault. It's obviously somewhere in between, and I think we disagree as to how much fault should be attributed to each party. 

 

Re: net spend - I don't think that matters hugely. We were fortunate in the sales of Mata and Luiz, but I think if we'd gotten smaller sums for them and players had to be bought we would still have shelled out the £27m for Fabregas, £21m for Matic and £26m for Cuadrado. From the offers we made for Mourinho's targets it looks like we were prepared to splash out on the correct players, having learnt from Cuadrado/Salah/Luis type fiascos.

 

Selling Ramires - was he adding real value to our team? He barely got any games. And if we were to replace him, surely a player that can actually add value would be needed rather than a squad filler who does nothing? As far as I'm aware, no such players were available. I don't think it's hindered us hugely either, RLC has actually gotten playing time and none of the other CMs are having issues with fatigue.

 

 

Like I said it's a decent post that covers a lot but I think there's a distinct anti-Jose bias which is fine. We all have our own biases no matter however objective we try to be. I think that it's also natural to put the blame for things going wrong on people who aren't here anymore because that means the problem is solved, we can move on to winning the league again.

 

The more troubling proposition is if the problems repeat themselves, as we've seen happening in a number of areas at this club. It's not the first time we've tried to cut our transfer spending without having an adequate strategy to replace it. Both Jose and Ancelotti suffered with that. There are other issues to, but personally I believe that if we recognised that hiring Jose was a mistake then the people making those decisions have to bear some of the responsibility too. All we've done is change the coach and keep the system the same. If people think that fundamental changes will occur after that then I wish I shared their optimism.

 

Again, interesting post.

 

A bias would make it sound unfair. I make no secret of the fact that I blame Mourinho for a lot and feel that I have made coherent arguments to back that view. At the same time, I acknowledge that he's the best out there at certain things, namely defensive football and preserving a lead in the league.

 

It's a good comparison with Ancelotti but isn't that more or less the reason Emenalo was brought in? To prevent recurrences of that, and we've not been bad in the transfer market since then, I'd say. It's also clear that we were prepared to spend cash unlike that year, we just didn't get the targets we wanted.

 

You are completely correct that we need to see what caused last summer's failures and address the problems. To my mind, it seems like an outlier. It's not the first time in recent years we've tried to go for high profile targets and been rejected but it seems to be the first time we've dug in and been stubborn rather than just going for plan B. The reason for this? We'll never know, but I have a feeling that Mourinho's trademark stubborn, bullish attitude and the fact that he obviously had more influence in these things than any of our other managers - title of manager rather than coach, Emenalo's offer of resignation - played a large part in this. 

 

 

The board will probably have looked into what happened, assessed their mistakes and made adjustments going forward - it doesn't necessarily mean someone should be sacked or an announcement should be made about it. 

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Hah, you've got me there. He is too slow and as a result is defensively suspect at RB, he's good at CB imo - I think he's demonstrated as much recently. Mourinho has never had trouble using slow CBs as he uses a low block and Ivan would likely be utilised next to JT if needed.

 

 

True, but more than being slow my issue with Ivanovic is that he's just not very good. Those three centre-backs were all over 30 and the best one on the ball is 35. Christensen was two years off so that left Zouma and I think we were screaming out for a CB.

 

I also have a problem with the way the club went about buying Stones considering the first and last bids were £16 million apart. There's low-balling and then there's taking the piss and I think we really messed up that negotiation.

 

 

 

 

I don't absolve the board of all responsibility, nor do I think it's entirely (or even mostly) their fault. It's obviously somewhere in between, and I think we disagree as to how much fault should be attributed to each party. 

 

Re: net spend - I don't think that matters hugely. We were fortunate in the sales of Mata and Luiz, but I think if we'd gotten smaller sums for them and players had to be bought we would still have shelled out the £27m for Fabregas, £21m for Matic and £26m for Cuadrado. From the offers we made for Mourinho's targets it looks like we were prepared to splash out on the correct players, having learnt from Cuadrado/Salah/Luis type fiascos.

 

Selling Ramires - was he adding real value to our team? He barely got any games. And if we were to replace him, surely a player that can actually add value would be needed rather than a squad filler who does nothing? As far as I'm aware, no such players were available. I don't think it's hindered us hugely either, RLC has actually gotten playing time and none of the other CMs are having issues with fatigue.

 

 
 

 

Absolute agree that it's somewhere in between but net spend is key for me. When you have a net spend of £14 million across four transfer windows, there's something going wrong there and it's not the first time we've scrimped and it's cost a coach. That's a much larger issue but I really think that we needed to improve the squad last season (11 players played the vast majority of minutes and the 12th most-used player was sold in January) and we didn't. 

 

I think Ramires would have been vital in the PSG game, especially the away leg when it became stretched but I can also see the logic in selling him. What I think we did in that instance is sacrifice short-term shots at success for financial reasons, which has echoes of the summer transfer window. I'm not Ramires's biggest fan but we had a weak squad in January and weakened it further. Maybe it pays off next year.

 

 

 

A bias would make it sound unfair. I make no secret of the fact that I blame Mourinho for a lot and feel that I have made coherent arguments to back that view. At the same time, I acknowledge that he's the best out there at certain things, namely defensive football and preserving a lead in the league.

 

It's a good comparison with Ancelotti but isn't that more or less the reason Emenalo was brought in? To prevent recurrences of that, and we've not been bad in the transfer market since then, I'd say. It's also clear that we were prepared to spend cash unlike that year, we just didn't get the targets we wanted.

 

You are completely correct that we need to see what caused last summer's failures and address the problems. To my mind, it seems like an outlier. It's not the first time in recent years we've tried to go for high profile targets and been rejected but it seems to be the first time we've dug in and been stubborn rather than just going for plan B. The reason for this? We'll never know, but I have a feeling that Mourinho's trademark stubborn, bullish attitude and the fact that he obviously had more influence in these things than any of our other managers - title of manager rather than coach, Emenalo's offer of resignation - played a large part in this. 

 

 

The board will probably have looked into what happened, assessed their mistakes and made adjustments going forward - it doesn't necessarily mean someone should be sacked or an announcement should be made about it. 

 

I don't mean bias in a bad way. We all have biases and that's just part of who we are. My problem with sacking Jose wasn't simply the man going, but what the plan going forward was. The whole club needs to have a reevaluation of itself and we seem to have skirted that, instead changing just the coach like we have done so many times before. I hope there are changes but what I think will happen is that we'll spend £100 million or so (Gross) this summer, compete at the top through sheer strength of chequebook and repeat the same mistakes.

 

What I'd like to see is us take a season to blood youngsters and build a foundation for a new team based on new principles (homegrown, uniquely Chelsea, maybe even attacking football). Problem is we tried something similar with AVB and when it failed it wasn't long until we went running back to Jose.

 

I don't think Roman wanted Jose back. He wanted Pep and when he couldn't get him, he panicked, scrapped all the plan for this new Chelsea and went for the safe option BUT then failed to back him this summer, maybe because he thought he could get Guardiola or maybe just to balance the books.

 

But ultimately I agree with you that there's enough blame to go around. At the moment though it would appear from the outside that it's all falling on one man.

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Hah, you've got me there. He is too slow and as a result is defensively suspect at RB, he's good at CB imo - I think he's demonstrated as much recently. Mourinho has never had trouble using slow CBs as he uses a low block and Ivan would likely be utilised next to JT if needed.

Got to say havnt seen Ivan play well at CB either.

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Ahh the old Luiz debate. Where people who can't think for themselves were made to believe that Luiz was terrible and wasn't a centre back by the media. This despite him being no different from Carvalho in style of play and proving the theory wrong every day at PSG.

How can you use the example of PSG hahahahahahaha. That league is worse than the Scottish league lol.

Carvalho is one of the greatest defenders ever in the premiership and his partnership with Terry only conceded 15 goals in the prem in there first season together. Luiz wasn't even half the defender Carvalho was.

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