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Jose Mourinho thread


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The biggest difference for me is the return to full fitness of Diego Costa in that. He himself has said he wasn't in the required shape to start the season and started doing two-a-day sessions to get into shape.

 

His improvement is marked and it completely changed the way we played.

 

The problem with those stats and something that other sports have a huge step-up on the football is they can account (to a certain extent) for the adjusted difficulty of opponents. 

 

You might not agree with that, but look at Arsenal, Man City and Palace over the same two periods. 

 

Arsenal went 2.06 to 1.57 points per game.

 

City from 2.00 to 1.36 points per game.

 

Palace went from 1.71 points per game to just 0.50 points per game (and are a team we faced under Jose when they were in form and under Guus when they weren't, so it highlights how you're facing two different propositions simply based on when you face them).

 

None of these teams changed coaches but had fairly large drop-offs in form that require explanation, much like our improvement would.

 

That's the problem with stats - they're very complicated things and they don't tell the whole story.

 

Stats won't tell the story I agree, but some tell a very obvious story. Our first 16 games, were filled with losses and no sign of improvement. Our next 16 games were filled with draw, win draw, win, draw win, and hopeful signs of improvement with far less room for error due to the lack of games remaining.

 

Costa was unfit but it was Jose's sanctioning to for a short pre-season and giving our players a months holiday. It backfired.

 

You go to the media and call your doctors naive, you are asking for trouble in the camp. Follow that up by publicly saying the players betrayed you, that's it, someone has to leave and its impossible to sack 11 players.

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Actually I have critised Mourinho on other threads for many things. The Eva row, playing the same out of form players, not giving players a chance including Luis last year who I rated. Then in the end Mourinho had lost the dressing room, why only the players and coach know. I critised Mourinho for all them things like I do for the things I said before for Hiddink.

Your getting my Arsenal point wrong, how many years have Arsenal started well then faltered off the second half of the season. That's my point about pressure, less pressure for Arsenal in the first half of the season then when its squeaky bum time they falter. Mourinhos and Hiddinks games are not really comparable because of the opposition faced, how in or out of form those clubs where, injuries, suspensions.

When have I said Arsenal have a identity?

 

Well look here, I never once criticised Jose for not giving Luis a chance as I understood how good Dave was, and such is life. So much for me hating Jose ey. If you criticised Jose for all them things then I don't know why you are making excuses for him. You should regrettably understand why he got sacked like many of us do, no one wanted it to happen, not even the board which is why they left it so late but in the end it was inevitable.

 

Arsenal usually start well, falter and do well late on. This season however is different. It's the last straw for Wenger. Chelsea were down and out early, Utd are not the same and City couldn't win away. This was/is Arsenals best chance for years, so the pressure has been and will be on them until the very last game.

 

You haven't said anything about identity, I was just generalising as you and ShedEnder agree with eachother and are on the same page. I'm just can't see how the likes of Arsenal and City are being rated above us with regards to their futures, especially when I see the reactions from their own fans. It's just as bad if not worse than us.

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No time right now but I read the Carlo bit, I have always stood by the simple fact that I don't rate Carlo as top brass, in the season we won the league I fealt player for player we where the best team by some way, Ronaldo leaving United hurt them but games where either score a million goals or grind and you could see the inevitable some times, Blackburn away as a prime example that season. So yes I was ok with Carlo because I never really rated him, I still rare Jose as one of the best in the world and that's why I'm happy to afford him the credit that I wasn't Carlo. For me it's simple, I rate one highly and not the other

so in other words with jose an utterly abject season should not be taken in isolation and he should have remained manager but with carlo finishing second was enough of a reason to sack him and we should not pay any attention to his winning the only double in our history?

 

amazing stuff. what do you think would've happened if jose had stayed on? the players would suddenly regain trust in him and belief in themselves, we'd finish fourth and then roll out the welcome mat for pogba and co?

 

 

 

in fact I put that question out to all of you- the summer is done and we can't go back, but after the Leicester game, the one where he said the players "betrayed his work" (i.e. he did his job but they didn't do theirs [a theme of his from this season]) the club don't sack him. Then what happens? where do we finish? do we win any of the cups. perhaps we win the league? and in the summer what would happen?

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Mourinho was approached by a third party claiming to represent Arsenal at the beginning of this month, following successive losses to severely understrength Manchester United and Swansea City sides. The former Chelsea manager was asked if he would be interested in working at Arsenal should Wenger's position be made vacant, and to hold off on making a decision on other offers until May.

-via Duncan Castles

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You're asking the wrong person mate - I'm firmly in the "Yes" camp :-)

I was for the first two seasons he was here second time around as well. Won less trophies than Rafa in his first season back, and blew a winning position in the PL with stupid comments about losing and "little horses" that gave confidence to the opposition (no idea why he did that as the man is not an idiot), and then second season watched us blow sides away for half a season, have one reversal and then shat himself and shored up shop so that we limped over the line with terrible football. Very glad he is gone, as are about a third of our fan base based on polls I have seen ...

When a man is that devisive of the fan base, and you see so many personal insults from one Chelsea fan to another flying about in threads like this one, I can only think it is a very good thing indeed that he is no longer here.

Limped over the line?! We won it with 3 games to spare!

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Won less trophies than Rafa in his first season back

 

Rofl. Rafa lost the CWC and won a trophy Jose couldn't have even tried to win. 

Lord people reach for interesting things in their desire to knock Jose. You then went on to make a PL title win look like the work of a bad manager. Well done. A COC and PL double I might add.

Edited by Stim
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Last 3 posters .. .you think we played good football in the second half of last season and the first half of this season ? Did you enjoy the tactics and how the manager set up the team ? Bored me to death personally ...

 

Ok so we won two very good trophies last season ... fantastic ... very nice too ... but some of us like to see our team playing with a bit more style and flair rather than desperate defending and bus parking. I am a fan of the "beautiful game" concept, and I enjoy watching good football and player skills, rather than just the result and the tribal bragging rights that accompany "success".

 

 

Just a different point of view that's all ... no need to get personal and patronising. 

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I'd like to bring up a new argument against Mourinho if a may. Although i liked Mourinho and know he's one of, if not the best mangager in the world, he was never right for us second time round. We needed stability and Mourinho is far too destructive and doesn't look to the future. 3 season manager tops. 

 

Now on to what really p*ssed me off this time round was his inability to give players a chance. He sold KdB without giving him a fair chance in the squad. When played he was always shifted out wide much like Mata was. A player like him was never going to take his chance out of position. He sold him and everyone seemed to pleased about the £18m we got for him (£11m profit) for someone who rarely featured. Two years later he's being sold for £55m.. Our main issue at the moment is how sh*te Oscar is, imagine if we had KdB behind the striker.

 

Then look at Lukaku, he hit 17 goals for West Brom in just 35 games when he was still a teenager, yet for some reason Mourinho decided to sign Eto'o and ship Lukaku back out on loan. Yes there will be the argument that Lukaku wanted guaranteed first team action but lets be honest, he could've got it ahead of Torres nd Ba that year. I firmly believe with a top striker that season we could've come close to winning the league and who's to say Lukaku couldn't have been that man. He had a proven goal scoring record in the prem yet once again left on loan. We later sold him for £28m, which is a good bit of business right? Well now he's one of the top scorers in the prem and being linked with moves upwards of £60m to the likes of Bayern and Madrid. 

 

Yes, Mourinho won us the league and signed us people like Costa and Fab but in the long term he has hindered this club financially and domestically. I don't blame Mourinho as that is the kind of manager he is and wherever he goes is successful, albeit at the cost of the academy etc. I blame the board for hiring him for a second coming and not foreseeing that, although he is a great manager, he isn't what we needed to achieve our long term goals.  

 

I expect a few of you may disagree with me but this is my opinion. 

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I'd like to bring up a new argument against Mourinho if a may. Although i liked Mourinho and know he's one of, if not the best mangager in the world, he was never right for us second time round. We needed stability and Mourinho is far too destructive and doesn't look to the future. 3 season manager tops. 

 

Now on to what really p*ssed me off this time round was his inability to give players a chance. He sold KdB without giving him a fair chance in the squad. When played he was always shifted out wide much like Mata was. A player like him was never going to take his chance out of position. He sold him and everyone seemed to pleased about the £18m we got for him (£11m profit) for someone who rarely featured. Two years later he's being sold for £55m.. Our main issue at the moment is how sh*te Oscar is, imagine if we had KdB behind the striker.

 

Then look at Lukaku, he hit 17 goals for West Brom in just 35 games when he was still a teenager, yet for some reason Mourinho decided to sign Eto'o and ship Lukaku back out on loan. Yes there will be the argument that Lukaku wanted guaranteed first team action but lets be honest, he could've got it ahead of Torres nd Ba that year. I firmly believe with a top striker that season we could've come close to winning the league and who's to say Lukaku couldn't have been that man. He had a proven goal scoring record in the prem yet once again left on loan. We later sold him for £28m, which is a good bit of business right? Well now he's one of the top scorers in the prem and being linked with moves upwards of £60m to the likes of Bayern and Madrid. 

 

Yes, Mourinho won us the league and signed us people like Costa and Fab but in the long term he has hindered this club financially and domestically. I don't blame Mourinho as that is the kind of manager he is and wherever he goes is successful, albeit at the cost of the academy etc. I blame the board for hiring him for a second coming and not foreseeing that, although he is a great manager, he isn't what we needed to achieve our long term goals.  

 

I expect a few of you may disagree with me but this is my opinion. 

 

De Bruyne had more chances than Azpi did early that season. One was happy to wait and then take their chance, the other wasn't. As soon as he wanted to go somewhere else for guaranteed first-team football, Jose wasn't going to stand in his way.

 

Lukaku I agree with. I'd have liked to have seen him come in during Jose's first season and the same goes for Nat Chalobah too but Jose (contrary to what you're saying) was looking for stability and to build towards winning the league in the second season. The fact that we then went out and got Diego who was roughly the same age as Drogba when we signed him and is still only 27 says to me that we don't particularly miss having Lukaku as our main striker. 

 

Even if you'd like a younger striker, we still have Traore, Solanke and Abraham to come through. 

 

 I blame the board for hiring him for a second coming and not foreseeing that, although he is a great manager, he isn't what we needed to achieve our long term goals.  

 

 

This is a key point because the board can't align their short and long-term goals. Roman wanted Pep. He wanted a particular style of football and when he didn't get him he abandoned that and hired Jose.

 

Jose was brought in to win. He did that. More than that he established a pretty decent foundation but we didn't build on it. Last May we had a title-winning team and rather than look at the flaws and fix them, we did nothing.

 

It's the muddled thinking and poor leadership that is the issue at this club and it comes down to one man - Roman.

 

But Jose came in and made it clear that within two years we'd win the title and we did that. The board backed him and he delivered them the best team in the country and that was enough for them. Job done. After that something changed and we will finish this season with a net spend of £9 million when every man and his dog can see here that we needed to improve.

 

 

That's why this whole 'Jose argument' is so very pointless. He made mistakes, but they came after the first ball of this season was kicked and the biggest issues had already occurred.

 

Those problems might still exist in the club too. We changed the coach and I'm excited about Conte (because he reminds me a fair bit of Jose and Luca) but we need to change the way this club is run and it's been something we've all muttered at some time in the last decade. Until that does though you're going to see the same confusion about what this club wants because the man at the top changes his mind on a whim apparently.

Edited by ShedEnder91
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I am a fan of the "beautiful game" concept, and I enjoy watching good football and player skills, rather than just the result and the tribal bragging rights that accompany "success".

 

The beautiful game..... I assume you're using that in the 'Arsenal fan since Wenger' sense, or maybe the Barcelona-appreciation society sense, where beauty is only found after 50 intricate passes. I'll concede that there is elegance to be found in those moments, but the actual phrase comes from somewhere else.

 

When H.E. Bates used that phrase first (contested but I like these particular roots) he talks about the 'gladiatorial rivalry' and diversity within the game. The beauty is found in the complexity of such a simple game in my opinion. It's the competition between two different styles or philosophies and an almost chess-like battle of strategies.

 

So it's absolutely possible for people to find the beauty in Jose's style of football. Arguably the most iconic moment in that most gladiatorial of sports, boxing, is Ali 'parking the bus' against Foreman for 8 rounds before countering his exhausted opponent and scoring one of the biggest wins in all of sport.

 

Similarly there is beauty in the way Jose won the Champions League with Inter, against the odds but nullifying his opponent's strengths and then exploiting their weaknesses.

 

Do you think you'll get different with Conte? An Italian, defence-first pragmatist? It may be a case of be careful what you wish for.

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>Criticize Jose. Forum has changed for the worse.

> Insult Roman, call board members derogatory names,say club is soulless and only foresee bleak future. No problems there, let's like such posts.

Christ you couldn't make it up!.

Couldn't agree more.

 

The soulless part makes me sick! If we are soulless, then every other big club in the Premier League is soulless too.

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Couldn't agree more.

 

The soulless part makes me sick! If we are soulless, then every other big club in the Premier League is soulless too.

 

You have this weird thing where you define your club by how other underperforming clubs are performing, so it's ok for us to be poor if Liverpool are poor or it's ok for us to be soulless if City are equally lacking in that department.

 

What I do is compare us to the Chelsea I grew up with, the Chelsea I heard stories of as a boy (and still do fortunately) and the Chelsea I care about - not these other clubs that I could give two sh*ts about.

 

But I'd love to see you argue the points on their own merit - who embodies the soul of this club right now? Who understands what it is? Who is the player that new signings go up to on the first day of the season because they know that's the guy (in the way Costa did with JT last season)? Who is the person who sets the tone?

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You have this weird thing where you define your club by how other underperforming clubs are performing, so it's ok for us to be poor if Liverpool are poor or it's ok for us to be soulless if City are equally lacking in that department.

 

What I do is compare us to the Chelsea I grew up with, the Chelsea I heard stories of as a boy (and still do fortunately) and the Chelsea I care about - not these other clubs that I could give two sh*ts about.

 

But I'd love to see you argue the points on their own merit - who embodies the soul of this club right now? Who understands what it is? Who is the player that new signings go up to on the first day of the season because they know that's the guy (in the way Costa did with JT last season)? Who is the person who sets the tone?

 

We go through a bad patch (the worst in 20 years) and because we (rightfully this time) sack our manager, we are now soulless.

 

Whats soulless is fans saying that we need to go out and spend £150m to try and fix the problem (like Utd are trying to do) instead of looking within and using our loan and youth players (like Utd are also doing), but I guess the latter shows a lack of ambition.

 

This club is certainly not soulless. With a new stadium and a new manager lined up we are on a positive path.

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You want me to say JT to prove your point correct? I wonder what tone was set this season. JT is past his best and we need to start giving more youngsters a chance to carry that passion for the club forward. He cannot last forever but the club should and will. Simply splashing 150m in the market won't solve that.

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You want me to say JT to prove your point correct? I wonder what tone was set this season. JT is past his best and we need to start giving more youngsters a chance to carry that passion for the club forward. He cannot last forever but the club should and will. Simply splashing 150m in the market won't solve that.

 

You can say whatever you want. You can say JT if you wish, or you could say one of the other players like Ivanovic or Azpi, or you could say the owner, or the Technical Director or you could even go for David Barnard who is probably the most senior person who really understands what a British football club is all about in my opinion.

 

The choice is your's. Just be honest. 

Edited by ShedEnder91
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To be honest the person who sets the tone and the first person players walk up to is the manager.......

 

So right now the person within whom the soul of this club resides, the one who sets the tone, the one who knows what it means to be part of Chelsea Football Club is a 69 year old man who has been here for 3 months (6 if you include his previous stint) and is leaving in a couple of months.

 

Yep, I'd say that sums up Chelsea Football Club in 2016 very nicely indeed.

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