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Selling Kante a year ago was a completely unthinkable proposition. 

He was, and remains, an absolutely world class player and potentially still world leading in his position. 

This does bring up the conundrum of selling him for a relatively high price and reinvesting that money into a new GK.

I would give my left kidney before we let him go, though. Bakayoko/Drinkwater/Jorginho/Barkley are all dispensable before he is.

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Its hard to come by real world class players and letting him go seems contrary to wanting a top quality squad. He's had a few knocks over the last year but he is still the same player and can provide cover for a defence and break up the oppositions attacks. He has a superb engine and gets stuck in. 

I see he is valuable and that he isn't getting any younger but losing him and keeping Jorghino doesn't sit well with me. Frank left out Jorge after the lockdown and this leads me to believe he prefers Kante. Jorge is a player around which a whole tactical approach revolves while Kante is flexible.

If we need to raise funds sell Jorghino.

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2 minutes ago, Andy North said:

Its hard to come by real world class players and letting him go seems contrary to wanting a top quality squad. He's had a few knocks over the last year but he is still the same player and can provide cover for a defence and break up the oppositions attacks. He has a superb engine and gets stuck in. 

I see he is valuable and that he isn't getting any younger but losing him and keeping Jorghino doesn't sit well with me. Frank left out Jorge after the lockdown and this leads me to believe he prefers Kante. Jorge is a player around which a whole tactical approach revolves while Kante is flexible.

If we need to raise funds sell Jorghino.

I'd suggest that if we sell Kante for 60-70m it's because no club wants to bid more than 25m for jorginho. 

A lot of people seem to think we can sell all our players. I think anyone surplus to requirements will be loaned out whilst players like jorginho who are genuine squad players will only go if their value can be met.

In this market very few clubs are spending. 

Edited by bisright1
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1 hour ago, Frawdulant said:

I think it would be extremely unfair to say that a single injury filled season would deem a player is no longer world class. Imagine if we used that logic with Drogba following the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons, or even John Terry following the 12-13 season.

The reality is that if he had had the same poor season but at another club and he was on the market for £45M we'd all be screaming for Marina to sign him up.

Apples and oranges, with respect.

There was more to Drogba and Terry than their physical attributes. Both also were key leadership figures. 

Unfortunately, Kante is much more like Essien - his game is built primarily around his physical attributes. Once those go he won't be anywhere near the same player. Plus in technical terms he is IMO even more basic than Essien was - he's a less accurate passer and has a more erratic first touch, so it's not like you could try and reconvert him into a regista or anything (I know you weren't suggesting that BTW). Also, while he is a nice guy he has never struck me as being a natural leader. He impresses me as more of a supportive type of personality who works hard for the team's benefit and gets good results. 

If his style of play is catching up with him - and there are signs that it might be, in light of him nearing 30 and his ongoing fitness problems - then we would do worse than to consider a stupid offer should one come in, given his general lack of suitability for Frank's intended style of play and our ongoing issues at GK (replacing Kepa won't solve everything, but it would for mine do a great deal). 

If one doesn't come, of course, then I wouldn't suggest that we should rush to sell him. He's shown that he can do a job in the bigger games, when we set up more defensively. But it doesn't seem that he's as irreplaceable as he appeared even a season ago.  

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2 hours ago, Frawdulant said:

I think it would be extremely unfair to say that a single injury filled season would deem a player is no longer world class. Imagine if we used that logic with Drogba following the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons, or even John Terry following the 12-13 season.

The reality is that if he had had the same poor season but at another club and he was on the market for £45M we'd all be screaming for Marina to sign him up.

I personally wouldn't want us to spend that much on a 29 year old who's main attribute is his engine and is starting to pick up Injuries, I'd be horrified.

Difference is with the comparisons you made is there was a lot of mitigating circumstances with Drogba's struggles that came down to more than his ability. Terry recovered to give us two good season's after Rafa but mainly because of Jose's deepline, had Roman succeeded in wooing Pep his struggles would have probably got worse.

There's a lot of things in regards to Kante that suggest we won't ever be getting the version we saw under Conte.

1. He keeps picking up the injury's and he's a 29 year old who relies on athleticism, the last player we had of similar profile was Essien and look at what happened to him.

2. He's not well suited to the football Frank wants to play, it's not an accident most if not all of our best performances have come without him, Kovacic and even Barkley are more suited to the RCM role and him as a sitter really hurts our build up from deep.

3. His best position doesn't exist in our 433, almost as a follow on from the last point he's a square peg in a round hole in either sitting DM or RCM, especially the former.

I'd love to be wrong but sticking to him out of pure hope is what leads to situations like Torres, Essien, Rooney and Alexis (at United) etc al. Sometimes in football the head has to rule the heart.

Edited by Argo
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For me it depends. If Frank intends to primarily use the 4-3-3 we've seen last season, then we have to consider selling him if we get a bid for 50 million or more. As much as it hurts, because he's done a lot for us, we have to keep in mind that we're talking about a 29 year old player who was injured a lot last season and who's preferred position doesn't exist in this system. The last season he's been consistently world class has been 17/18 with Conte. But if we want to continue with the 4-2-3-1 we played against Brighton I would keep him unless we get an offer of 100 million or more, as there aren't many better players, if any, in a midfield two, when Kante is fit.

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1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

I'd suggest that if we sell Kante for 60-70m it's because no club wants to bid more than 25m for jorginho. 

A lot of people seem to think we can sell all our players. I think anyone surplus to requirements will be loaned out whilst players like jorginho who are genuine squad players will only go if their value can be met.

In this market very few clubs are spending. 

Selling Kante isn't dependent on Jorginho at all, and it shouldn't be. Jorginho wasn't actually on any transfer list either. 

We have signed at least 4 starters and none of them primarily plays in the deep midfield or central midfield, that alone would suggest that Lampard is happy with the midfield.

Kante has proven himself under multiple managers now and if he is injury free Lampard will automatically put him in the starting lineup, that's what he did this previous season after all.
People still think that he doesn't play any position at all but he is an all around midfielder, he proved that he can recovered the ball and score as well, for the high press and open flow game that Lampard wants to play he fits right in part from the fact that he makes very little passes forward and doesn't create anything but that's why we have others players in the squad.

The crazy thing to do would be to sell Kante and buy Rice with that money, if we really need to sell in order for Lampard to get a new player the only position that is viable is the goalkeeper. It's simply too many new players otherwise and while Rice is young, Kante still has a role to play, you always give a world class player an extra chance, if Kante avoids injuries Lampard will start games with him.

 

Edited by Gol15
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4 hours ago, Argo said:

I personally wouldn't want us to spend that much on a 29 year old who's main attribute is his engine and is starting to pick up Injuries, I'd be horrified.

Difference is with the comparisons you made is there was a lot of mitigating circumstances with Drogba's struggles that came down to more than his ability. Terry recovered to give us two good season's after Rafa but mainly because of Jose's deepline, had Roman succeeded in wooing Pep his struggles would have probably got worse.

There's a lot of things in regards to Kante that suggest we won't ever be getting the version we saw under Conte.

1. He keeps picking up the injury's and he's a 29 year old who relies on athleticism, the last player we had of similar profile was Essien and look at what happened to him.

2. He's not well suited to the football Frank wants to play, it's not an accident most if not all of our best performances have come without him, Kovacic and even Barkley are more suited to the RCM role and him as a sitter really hurts our build up from deep.

3. His best position doesn't exist in our 433, almost as a follow on from the last point he's a square peg in a round hole in either sitting DM or RCM, especially the former.

I'd love to be wrong but sticking to him out of pure hope is what leads to situations like Torres, Essien, Rooney and Alexis (at United) etc al. Sometimes in football the head has to rule the heart.

This is the most important point for me.

No one is suggesting Kante isn't a fantastic player, but we can use the money to get a better fit for the team and a proper anchor in the CDM position that won't go roaming and can win headers.

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I hate the idea of us selling Kante as everyone knows how good he is and how important he can be to a team. No other player can break up opponents possession  and nick the ball as much as Kante does. We have so many players I would rather we offload before Kante but appreciate he will fetch the highest transfer fee if we do have to balance the books.

Rice might be one for the future but I certainly wouldn't want him instead of Kante right now. 

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8 hours ago, DaRick said:

Unfortunately, Kante is much more like Essien - his game is built primarily around his physical attributes. Once those go he won't be anywhere near the same player. Plus in technical terms he is IMO even more basic than Essien was - he's a less accurate passer and has a more erratic first touch, so it's not like you could try and reconvert him into a regista or anything (I know you weren't suggesting that BTW). Also, while he is a nice guy he has never struck me as being a natural leader. He impresses me as more of a supportive type of personality who works hard for the team's benefit and gets good results. 

If his style of play is catching up with him - and there are signs that it might be, in light of him nearing 30 and his ongoing fitness problems - then we would do worse than to consider a stupid offer should one come in, given his general lack of suitability for Frank's intended style of play and our ongoing issues at GK (replacing Kepa won't solve everything, but it would for mine do a great deal). 

 

I decided to check this out a little more and if you look around the football world, even in an age where stars are able to maintain their level deeper into their 30s, defensive midfield remains a stark exception. Plenty of attacking midfielders (Toure, De Rossi, Henderson etc.) blossomed as they moved deeper later in their careers. In the last 10 years or so, I can only think of one proper defensive midfielder who has maintained a world-class level into their late 30s - Fernandinho.

Soft-tissue injuries aren't a "bad luck" thing. A pattern of these injuries suggests an underlying factor. However, we need to be careful when writing off Kante because 19/20 was his first ever injury-hit season in his career (although he has had several short-term injuries while at Chelsea). 

One of the problems with punctuating injury is that a player then can't build their consistency and momentum, a fact that has been made worse by the tactical changes enforced on Kante. So in a sense, it is possible that he just isn't a good fit any Chelsea anymore. Another possible explanation is that these tactical changes have lead to Kante attempting a more dynamic role, which in turn leads to increased injury. Evidence for this is strong, given the rate of injury appears to have increased with his role changes. His responsibilities on the ball have increased dramatically, which is a different movement set to running off the ball like he used to. We really need to get him back to what he does best, which is running off the ball and breaking up counter-attacks, instead of pressing higher up the field. 

All this said, there is no pressing need to sell Kante. The worst-case scenario if Kante is not up to his usual level is that he becomes a squad player, and no club in the world would ever have that depth available off the bench. While it's exciting to thing about selling players to fund a starting line up, squads win trophies and we cannot compromise our depth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, True Blue23 said:

For me it depends. If Frank intends to primarily use the 4-3-3 we've seen last season, then we have to consider selling him if we get a bid for 50 million or more. As much as it hurts, because he's done a lot for us, we have to keep in mind that we're talking about a 29 year old player who was injured a lot last season and who's preferred position doesn't exist in this system. The last season he's been consistently world class has been 17/18 with Conte. But if we want to continue with the 4-2-3-1 we played against Brighton I would keep him unless we get an offer of 100 million or more, as there aren't many better players, if any, in a midfield two, when Kante is fit.

Exactly what i think

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17 hours ago, Frawdulant said:

I think it would be extremely unfair to say that a single injury filled season would deem a player is no longer world class. Imagine if we used that logic with Drogba following the 07-08 and 08-09 seasons, or even John Terry following the 12-13 season.

The reality is that if he had had the same poor season but at another club and he was on the market for £45M we'd all be screaming for Marina to sign him up.

I think other people have pretty much made my argument for me. Terry played in a highline under AVB, had we have gotten a similar manager afterwards and not Jose/Rafa it's likely Terry would've been finished there and then. 

Drogba is another player who was never exactly the fastest, so his game didn't rely on pace. Kante's situation is similar to Essiens, as soon as Essien started losing his pace, and we're talking about when he was 28 here, he became 1/4 of the player he was, he was barely recognisable. We can keep touting he's world class as much as we like, but if he's not playing well next season what then? That's 3 years of average and poor performances from Kante. I wouldn't say it was just last season he was poor, throughout a lot of Sarri's season he wasn't particularly great either, however, that was due to playing in a new position and more offensively. 

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5 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I think other people have pretty much made my argument for me. Terry played in a highline under AVB, had we have gotten a similar manager afterwards and not Jose/Rafa it's likely Terry would've been finished there and then. 

Drogba is another player who was never exactly the fastest, so his game didn't rely on pace. Kante's situation is similar to Essiens, as soon as Essien started losing his pace, and we're talking about when he was 28 here, he became 1/4 of the player he was, he was barely recognisable. We can keep touting he's world class as much as we like, but if he's not playing well next season what then? That's 3 years of average and poor performances from Kante. I wouldn't say it was just last season he was poor, throughout a lot of Sarri's season he wasn't particularly great either, however, that was due to playing in a new position and more offensively. 

Well we can agree to disagree. Hopefully he stays and plays a blinder.

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5 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I decided to check this out a little more and if you look around the football world, even in an age where stars are able to maintain their level deeper into their 30s, defensive midfield remains a stark exception. Plenty of attacking midfielders (Toure, De Rossi, Henderson etc.) blossomed as they moved deeper later in their careers. In the last 10 years or so, I can only think of one proper defensive midfielder who has maintained a world-class level into their late 30s - Fernandinho.

Soft-tissue injuries aren't a "bad luck" thing. A pattern of these injuries suggests an underlying factor. However, we need to be careful when writing off Kante because 19/20 was his first ever injury-hit season in his career (although he has had several short-term injuries while at Chelsea). 

One of the problems with punctuating injury is that a player then can't build their consistency and momentum, a fact that has been made worse by the tactical changes enforced on Kante. So in a sense, it is possible that he just isn't a good fit any Chelsea anymore. Another possible explanation is that these tactical changes have lead to Kante attempting a more dynamic role, which in turn leads to increased injury. Evidence for this is strong, given the rate of injury appears to have increased with his role changes. His responsibilities on the ball have increased dramatically, which is a different movement set to running off the ball like he used to. We really need to get him back to what he does best, which is running off the ball and breaking up counter-attacks, instead of pressing higher up the field. 

All this said, there is no pressing need to sell Kante. The worst-case scenario if Kante is not up to his usual level is that he becomes a squad player, and no club in the world would ever have that depth available off the bench. While it's exciting to thing about selling players to fund a starting line up, squads win trophies and we cannot compromise our depth.

Even Fernandinho isn't that germane to this discussion because in his Shakhtar/early Man City days he was less of a box-to-box midfielder in the Essien/Kante mould and more of an all-round midfielder - to be sure, there were aspects of a ball-winning/box-to-box midfielder there, but he also functioned as a bit of a regista, in that his passing was (and remains) very good and he had just enough vision to bring the ball out from the back and properly distribute it. That was never true of Essien or Kante. 

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This year is his most important in football. If he shows that last year was just a blip, he'll always have a place to stay in the starting XI until he loses that bit of pace and energy.

Even Vidal had to change his game nowadays and I expect Kante to do the same. That being said, Kante had one of the best 4 year spell at the highest level.

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i cant believe so many of us are willing to sell him on due to one season with injuries.. he is still our best midfield player in a defensive role.. Even SFL had that season when he was injured for 4 months and Ballack carried us.. so have patience and lets show loyalty to our players too.. Too many of us are trying to play FM with them.

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Kante played the whole game against Sweden with Rabiot in the central midfield.

Kante spent a lot of time pressing in the opposition's half and made a few interceptions, he was running in space wide and keeping possession in the final third in a manner how Sarri wanted him to play 2 seasons ago.

In the 92'min Nzozi came in instead of Giroud, Kante stayed more forward in midfield with Rabiot, the Man United CB Lindelöf pushed Martial for a penalty and Griezmann missed it.

In conclusion, Kante has been playing this same role in a 2 men midfield for most of his career, this last game France played in a 3-4-1-2 formation, it reminds of Conte's tactic a bit.

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