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16 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I'm sorry, didn't you know he can't play as the CDM? His passing isn't good enough or something or other.

As that was clearly aimed at me I feel I have to respond.

I stand by what I said last season. Kante playing in sitting DM killed our first phase build up (you can make as many sarcastic quirks to passing as you like but all the successful modern teams have good first phase build up). I remember the first game back from the restart against Villa a highlight reel came out of him practically hiding when we were trying to play out (I noticed it during the game anyway but seeing such in a reel was grim) and given the two previous games to that we saw a masterclass on how to play that position (by Billy Gilmour, who was available for that game and not selected) made it all the more harder to take. Furthermore before this season Kante as a sitting DM wasn't even making us more solid (which was suppose to be the main trade off), his previous games at DM for us saw us concede 18 goals in 12 games which scaled for a full season would have seen us ship more goals than we did.

So far this season things look different, we actually do look defensively better and crucially putting Kante there hasn't completely destroyed our first phase build up play and as a consequence many attacks. Whether he's learned to position himself better or Lampard has found a way round it I'm not sure but the main thing is we aren't struggling right now (both defensively or in first phase build up) so if it stays that way I'll have no complaints but I stand by what I said last season (and previous times) and always will.

Edited by Argo
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13 minutes ago, Argo said:

As that was clearly aimed at me I feel I have to respond.

I stand by what I said last season. Kante playing in sitting DM killed our first phase build up (you can make as many sarcastic quirks to passing as you like, all the successful modern teams have good first phase build up). I remember the first game back from the restart against Villa a highlight reel came out of him practically hiding when we were trying to play out (I noticed it during the game anyway but seeing such in a reel was grim) and given the two previous games to that we saw a masterclass on how to play that position (by Billy Gilmour, who was available for that game and not selected) made it all the more harder to take. Furthermore before this season Kante as a sitting DM wasn't even making us more solid (which was suppose to be the main trade off), his previous games at DM for us saw us concede 18 goals in 12 games which scaled for a full season would have seen us ship more goals than we did.

So far this season things look different, we actually do look defensively better and crucially putting Kante there hasn't completely destroyed our first phase build up play and as a consequence many attacks. Whether he's learned to position himself better or Lampard has found a way round it I'm not sure but the main thing is we aren't struggling right now (both defensively or in first phase build up) so if it stays that way I'll have no complaints but I stand by what I said last season (and previous times) and always will.

Also keep in mind, Kante has only had 2 solid back to back games in that position this season. Lets not get carried away here. 

It's good that he and the team are playing well, but he was off the boil for over a year before that and when we saw him play in that position (the restart last season with Villa) he was woeful. Right now he appears to be keeping it as simple as possible which is good and has worked so far. 

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55 minutes ago, Argo said:

As that was clearly aimed at me I feel I have to respond.

I stand by what I said last season. Kante playing in sitting DM killed our first phase build up (you can make as many sarcastic quirks to passing as you like but all the successful modern teams have good first phase build up). I remember the first game back from the restart against Villa a highlight reel came out of him practically hiding when we were trying to play out (I noticed it during the game anyway but seeing such in a reel was grim) and given the two previous games to that we saw a masterclass on how to play that position (by Billy Gilmour, who was available for that game and not selected) made it all the more harder to take. Furthermore before this season Kante as a sitting DM wasn't even making us more solid (which was suppose to be the main trade off), his previous games at DM for us saw us concede 18 goals in 12 games which scaled for a full season would have seen us ship more goals than we did.

So far this season things look different, we actually do look defensively better and crucially putting Kante there hasn't completely destroyed our first phase build up play and as a consequence many attacks. Whether he's learned to position himself better or Lampard has found a way round it I'm not sure but the main thing is we aren't struggling right now (both defensively or in first phase build up) so if it stays that way I'll have no complaints but I stand by what I said last season (and previous times) and always will.

Just a note, not aimed at you or anyone specifically.

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13 hours ago, Argo said:

As that was clearly aimed at me I feel I have to respond.

I stand by what I said last season. Kante playing in sitting DM killed our first phase build up (you can make as many sarcastic quirks to passing as you like but all the successful modern teams have good first phase build up). I remember the first game back from the restart against Villa a highlight reel came out of him practically hiding when we were trying to play out (I noticed it during the game anyway but seeing such in a reel was grim) and given the two previous games to that we saw a masterclass on how to play that position (by Billy Gilmour, who was available for that game and not selected) made it all the more harder to take. Furthermore before this season Kante as a sitting DM wasn't even making us more solid (which was suppose to be the main trade off), his previous games at DM for us saw us concede 18 goals in 12 games which scaled for a full season would have seen us ship more goals than we did.

So far this season things look different, we actually do look defensively better and crucially putting Kante there hasn't completely destroyed our first phase build up play and as a consequence many attacks. Whether he's learned to position himself better or Lampard has found a way round it I'm not sure but the main thing is we aren't struggling right now (both defensively or in first phase build up) so if it stays that way I'll have no complaints but I stand by what I said last season (and previous times) and always will.

I'd like to believe Kante improved. The little genius is always improving.

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10 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Finally i can say he's back looking like one of the best midfielders in the league. At CDM of all things but right now he's doing great.

Definitely looking the best I've seen him in a long time now. When he's kept in a simple role he's actually really good, we should keep him there. 

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I don't see a way for Jorginho to get back into the team. It's just a fact that we look much better with Kante as the DM. Jorginho keeps things ticking, but it's not enough, it makes us weaker in other areas and to be brutally honest, we haven't looked any worse on the ball without Jorginho in the team. 

Kante is bringing that perfect balance right now. As a defensive shield he has been excellent, and he is moving the ball on quickly to players who are more comfortable in attacking positions.

This is the best I have seen Kante since Conte was in charge and it finally looks like he has shaken off those niggling injuries (touch wood) which stopped him gaining any momentum last season.

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8 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I don't see a way for Jorginho to get back into the team. It's just a fact that we look much better with Kante as the DM. Jorginho keeps things ticking, but it's not enough, it makes us weaker in other areas and to be brutally honest, we haven't looked any worse on the ball without Jorginho in the team. 

Kante is bringing that perfect balance right now. As a defensive shield he has been excellent, and he is moving the ball on quickly to players who are more comfortable in attacking positions.

This is the best I have seen Kante since Conte was in charge and it finally looks like he has shaken off those niggling injuries (touch wood) which stopped him gaining any momentum last season.

Yes, I agree with this.

 

we have not looked any weaker without jorginho when we have the ball. Kante adds much more defensively then jorginho, he has pace and jorginho lacks that and at times that’s when we get exposed 

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He is just so damn effective in this role.  Interested to see how he handles Spurs.  Reminds me of Conte's title winning season now.

@Scott Harris beyond Jorginho getting back in the team, it actually leads me to think the physicality and ability to break up play in this role is all the more important and attributes that Jorginho lacks.  He'll still have a role to play, but we need to find Kante 2.0, or Makalele 3.0 and move past Jorginho after this season.

 

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1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

I don't see a way for Jorginho to get back into the team. It's just a fact that we look much better with Kante as the DM. Jorginho keeps things ticking, but it's not enough, it makes us weaker in other areas and to be brutally honest, we haven't looked any worse on the ball without Jorginho in the team. 

Kante is bringing that perfect balance right now. As a defensive shield he has been excellent, and he is moving the ball on quickly to players who are more comfortable in attacking positions.

This is the best I have seen Kante since Conte was in charge and it finally looks like he has shaken off those niggling injuries (touch wood) which stopped him gaining any momentum last season.

Had we played from the very start the players that didn't play today, e.g. Jorginho, Giroud, CHO, Pulisic, Havertz, the result would have been the same. Kante is doing great but this isn't our strongest lineup, Jorginho would be doing the same things and more since he's a much better passer than Kante.

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11 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Had we played from the very start the players that didn't play today, e.g. Jorginho, Giroud, CHO, Pulisic, Havertz, the result would have been the same. Kante is doing great but this isn't our strongest lineup, Jorginho would be doing the same things and more since he's a much better passer than Kante.

There is no way anyone can say that with any degree of certainty.

Come on. We GET it, you LOVE Jorginho but just accept we are playing much better and look a better side without him. Kante is the better fit - END OF.

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42 minutes ago, Nibs said:

There is no way anyone can say that with any degree of certainty.

Come on. We GET it, you LOVE Jorginho but just accept we are playing much better and look a better side without him. Kante is the better fit - END OF.

Last season we also dominated possession but had worse players out there. You can't possibly think that we didn't improve our squad and that these new players haven't been instrumental in our wins. I'm certain that we win this game with Giroud, CHO, Jorginho, Pulisic, Havertz just as easy. 

I'm just being fair, because it seems that this agenda against Jorginho won't stop, even if he isn't playing he's the one to be singled out in a negative manner. When Jorginho had the most interceptions, tackles and passes into the final third he was still seen as a bad player, now that Kante has great stats it's all good. Even against Palace where he did well people were saying that Palace didn't pressure us, obviously that whole narrative doesn't happen now with Kante which in itself is a good thing! But it does point out that this lame agenda against Jorginho just doesn't go away.

We look good even when Jorginho plays, even when Pulisic plays, and so on... We WILL need other players too, the season is long and those that didn't play today have a lot to offer still. In the end of the day we have had the second easiest round of games in the league so far and we won against weak teams only, it's not a stretch to think that Jorginho, Giroud, Pulisic, CHO would have won us this game against a poor Newcastle, I can bet you that a fully fit Havertz can solve that game by himself lol

Edited by Gol15
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48 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Had we played from the very start the players that didn't play today, e.g. Jorginho, Giroud, CHO, Pulisic, Havertz, the result would have been the same. Kante is doing great but this isn't our strongest lineup, Jorginho would be doing the same things and more since he's a much better passer than Kante.

Yes is pulisic, havertz played we would be likely winners too but not sure about a clean sheet..

dont agree with the argument that Jorginho would have done better than kante.. he didnt do it when he was playing in the position against west brom or southampton.... Kante mopped up every thing.. ate up their only creative payer.. and made a crucial block in the first half when Tammy gave the ball away.. he still had the legs to come back.. Jorgi would never have been able to do that... Kante was extremely affective.. doesnt get a yellow every alternate tackle he tries to put in.. 

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1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Last season we also dominated possession but had worse players out there. You can't possibly think that we didn't improve our squad and that these new players haven't been instrumental in our wins. I'm certain that we win this game with Giroud, CHO, Jorginho, Pulisic, Havertz just as easy. 

I'm just being fair, because it seems that this agenda against Jorginho won't stop, even if he isn't playing he's the one to be singled out in a negative manner. When Jorginho had the most interceptions, tackles and passes into the final third he was still seen as a bad player, now that Kante has great stats it's all good. Even against Palace where he did well people were saying that Palace didn't pressure us, obviously that whole narrative doesn't happen now with Kante which in itself is a good thing! But it does point out that this lame agenda against Jorginho just doesn't go away.

We look good even when Jorginho plays, even when Pulisic plays, and so on... We WILL need other players too, the season is long and those that didn't play today have a lot to offer still. In the end of the day we have had the second easiest round of games in the league so far and we won against weak teams only, it's not a stretch to think that Jorginho, Giroud, Pulisic, CHO would have won us this game against a poor Newcastle, I can bet you that a fully fit Havertz can solve that game by himself lol

 

Jorginho was in the starting line-up against Newcastle last season :smile:

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2 hours ago, Jangz said:

Yes is pulisic, havertz played we would be likely winners too but not sure about a clean sheet..

dont agree with the argument that Jorginho would have done better than kante.. he didnt do it when he was playing in the position against west brom or southampton.... Kante mopped up every thing.. ate up their only creative payer.. and made a crucial block in the first half when Tammy gave the ball away.. he still had the legs to come back.. Jorgi would never have been able to do that... Kante was extremely affective.. doesnt get a yellow every alternate tackle he tries to put in.. 

All I'm saying is that we win this game with anyone that didn't play anyway! How many times did Jorginho play this season when he had a clean sheet? Don't act now as if Newcastle had a chance this game...

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9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yes I know, I never said that he didn't play, but Mendy, Chilwell, Ziyech, Werner weren't there which is my point, we have a much better squad this season, you have no argument now at all...

Yes we have a better team and part of that better team is Jorginho no longer being in the starting 11.

NOW it's end of argument!

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