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2 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Yes we have a better team and part of that better team is Jorginho no longer being in the starting 11.

NOW it's end of argument!

That's just your opinion, not an argument, learn the difference... You are probably one of those that wanted Jorginho out for 2 straight seasons before this one anyway, doesn't really mean much.

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13 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

That's just your opinion, not an argument, learn the difference... You are probably one of those that wanted Jorginho out for 2 straight seasons before this one anyway, doesn't really mean much.

Okay, it's my opinion, Lamps opinion ...................just about everyone's opinion accept yours!

I've said before, I like Jorginho - he is an okay player - but you have to just accept that when everyone if fit and in form, he doesn't make our best starting 11.

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31 minutes ago, dkw said:

I honestly don't know how you have the patience...

You're asking someone that has probably waited 3 seasons to finally say that we don't need Jorginho, if he has the patience... Sad really.

 

26 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Okay, it's my opinion, Lamps opinion ...................just about everyone's opinion accept yours!

I've said before, I like Jorginho - he is an okay player - but you have to just accept that when everyone if fit and in form, he doesn't make our best starting 11.

When did Lampard say that we have no use of Jorginho anymore? You're very deep into your little rabbit hole aren't you now? If you liked Jorginho, you wouldn't be constantly having negative takes about him, it's like if I said I really like Mourinho I just never seem to find a good word to describe him. One of us is honest and is trying to be fair, and it's not you... When Jorginho was playing and when Lampard made him vice-captain, that didn't matter people were still having an agenda against Jorginho, let that sink in for a moment...

Edited by Gol15
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Ridiculous that this topic is remotely still alive. Jorginho is an OK player who plays the odd good game but isn't someone you'd point at and say 'there is a winner'

Kante is a world class talent who most clubs would love to have and if you're going into a big game or final and he is missing through injury you feel a lot less confident.

Lampard has finally (and god knows why it took him so long) realised the detriment to the team of moving Kante to accommodate Jorginho.

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1 minute ago, loz said:

Ridiculous that this topic is remotely still alive. Jorginho is an OK player who plays the odd good game but isn't someone you'd point at and say 'there is a winner'

Kante is a world class talent who most clubs would love to have and if you're going into a big game or final and he is missing through injury you feel a lot less confident.

Lampard has finally (and god knows why it took him so long) realised the detriment to the team of moving Kante to accommodate Jorginho.

It's not still alive loz. I'm not sure it was ever open, apart from with Sarri and his cult.

Anyway Frank's comments today suggest they are managing him really carefully to stop the injuries and niggles. He was saying they've got to stop him at training because he only has one speed and will put up ridiculous numbers for distance run and sprints even in training after playing 2 games in a week. 

We're bloody lucky to have him. Hopefully we can keep him on the park regularly, because that'll make a lot of difference to us finishing high up the table.

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5 minutes ago, loz said:

Ridiculous that this topic is remotely still alive. Jorginho is an OK player who plays the odd good game but isn't someone you'd point at and say 'there is a winner'

Kante is a world class talent who most clubs would love to have and if you're going into a big game or final and he is missing through injury you feel a lot less confident.

Lampard has finally (and god knows why it took him so long) realised the detriment to the team of moving Kante to accommodate Jorginho.

 

On 19/06/2019 at 23:26, loz said:

With Kante moving back to the role he does a sh*t load better than anyone else in football Bakayoko, for all that he has the first touch of a rapist, will be of more use than Jorginho who, if he was a horse should be put down and turned into glue to be distributed to primary schools

So much biased against Jorginho that you even said that Bakayoko is better for us. That's the level of stupidity and the very harsh narrative against Jorginho that you have shown in the past. Fair to say that you also, have an agenda going on here... 

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3 hours ago, Nibs said:

There is no way anyone can say that with any degree of certainty.

Come on. We GET it, you LOVE Jorginho but just accept we are playing much better and look a better side without him. Kante is the better fit - END OF.

We were also a lot better without Kante last season, just saying. 

Anything can change, I'll give him credit where it's due, he's looked good so far. But anything can change in football. 

But this whole Jorginho vs Kante debate is pathetic at this point, and it isn't just Gol15. 

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30 minutes ago, Slojo said:

We were also a lot better without Kante last season, just saying. 

Anything can change, I'll give him credit where it's due, he's looked good so far. But anything can change in football. 

But this whole Jorginho vs Kante debate is pathetic at this point, and it isn't just Gol15. 

Yes it's pathetic I agree, and I'm sorry about it. I guess it's too damn hard to just appreciate a player without putting down another one, someone needs to be the scapegoat for whatever reason even if he isn't playing.

I can also have the same narrative and that way there is no debate because everyone agrees on this; Lets just be biased as hell against a player that has actually contributed to a whole lot during a difficult transitional time which seems to have finally passed... Now that we have won against some of the worst teams in the whole league, let's sell Jorginho in January we clearly don't need him.

 

Edited by Gol15
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2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yes it's pathetic I agree, and I'm sorry about it. I guess it's too damn hard to just appreciate a player without putting down another one, someone needs to be the scapegoat for whatever reason even if he isn't playing.

I can also have the same narrative and that way there is no debate because everyone agrees on this; Lets just be biased as hell against a player that has actually contributed to a whole lot during a difficult transitional time which seems to have finally passed... Now that we have won against some of the worst teams in the whole league, let's sell Jorginho in January we clearly don't need him.

 

I do agree to an extent, the same people on here who said I had an agenda against Kante last season are the same ones who constantly sh*t on Jorginho in this thread after Kante has a good game. It's really weird behaviour, I've seen it with my own eyes. 

I'm glad Kante is doing well in the position he's playing in. But I'm still not holding my breath, this is football, fixtures are tight and anything can go wrong at any time. 

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We dont miss Jorginho in any way at all. In the second half a Newcastle player was running with the ball towards our box and Kante got back and won the ball with a great tackle. Thats the difference for me, Jorginho would be to slow to even get there. Jorginho doesnt smell danger like Kante.

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3 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I do agree to an extent, the same people on here who said I had an agenda against Kante last season are the same ones who constantly sh*t on Jorginho in this thread after Kante has a good game. It's really weird behaviour, I've seen it with my own eyes. 

I'm glad Kante is doing well in the position he's playing in. But I'm still not holding my breath, this is football, fixtures are tight and anything can go wrong at any time. 

I did put Kante in my starting lineup for this game, it's there in the match thread, he's in good form and he scored for France which is pretty rare. But after 5 minutes it was clear that we are far better than Newcastle, it was an easy game by all means.

The next one is big, Spurs have been winning in bigger games against both Manchester teams, in fact I say we play a similar lineup, I would play Werner centrally and CHO on the wing and that would be my only change because even if Havertz is back he should start from the bench, Kovacic is in his prime now anyway. We will only see our full strength once Pulisic is back, till then even Kante will need a rest from time to time and like you say anything can happen...

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2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

You're asking someone that has probably waited 3 seasons to finally say that we don't need Jorginho, if he has the patience... Sad really.

 

When did Lampard say that we have no use of Jorginho anymore? You're very deep into your little rabbit hole aren't you now? If you liked Jorginho, you wouldn't be constantly having negative takes about him, it's like if I said I really like Mourinho I just never seem to find a good word to describe him. One of us is honest and is trying to be fair, and it's not you... When Jorginho was playing and when Lampard made him vice-captain, that didn't matter people were still having an agenda against Jorginho, let that sink in for a moment...

And when did I say that? I didn't - you're getting too emotional.

He still has a use but Jorginho is a SQUAD player. He will get minutes here and there. We'll have injuries, suspensions - players will need rest and rotation. But the fact is, as you have admitted yourself, we have better players now, and Jorginho is no longer in Lamps's first 11.

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Oh, it was always going to turn out like this. As wiser people have always said, "form is temporary, class is permanent" .

And Kante has always been class.

I think we should also ditch the Kante / Jorginho comparisons now. Different players, different skillsets. Kante is acknowledged world class and Jorginho isn't at that standard. Kante brings much more to the party. But Jorginho is a good squad player and always does his best.

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Has Lampard finally put the “Kante debate” finally to bed... The debate being around his position, which I guess should never have been a debate in the first place. Those (including me) who were unimpressed by Kante last season and questioned whether he should start can be forgiven on the grounds that he’s just way less effective as a number 8 than as DM. if Kante at DM is now the system and here to stay (I’d be very surprised if it isn’t and am also surprised it took so long), then i think Kante if fit has to be the first name on the teamsheet. is this something we can all pretty much agree on? 

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1 minute ago, Dean said:

Has Lampard finally put the “Kante debate” finally to bed... The debate being around his position, which I guess should never have been a debate in the first place. Those (including me) who were unimpressed by Kante last season and questioned whether he should start can be forgiven on the grounds that he’s just way less effective as a number 8 than as DM. if Kante at DM is now the system and here to stay (I’d be very surprised if it isn’t and am also surprised it took so long), then i think Kante if fit has to be the first name on the teamsheet. is this something we can all pretty much agree on? 

I hate those I told you so guys but I frickin' told you so! I really hated that a lot of Chelsea fans didn't think Kante was able to be a CDM when he is decidedly world class at the key things in that role.

"Don't even try, it would be a disaster" "It's a waste of a player having him sit back" " He's a box to box player not a CDM"

No Jorginho is not better than him..

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1 hour ago, sonic90 said:

I hate those I told you so guys but I frickin' told you so! I really hated that a lot of Chelsea fans didn't think Kante was able to be a CDM when he is decidedly world class at the key things in that role.

"Don't even try, it would be a disaster" "It's a waste of a player having him sit back" " He's a box to box player not a CDM"

No Jorginho is not better than him..

It's worth mentioning that he's been played at CDM before and not been particularly successful. Conte tried it unsuccessfully and Lampard tried it last season, again unsuccesfully.

But it seems Kante is now able to control the space instead of ball-chasing and deserting his position like he's previously done at CDM. Which is absolutely fantastic news obviously and right now Kante is back looking like one of the best midfielders in the league.

Both Lampard and Kante deserve a lot of credit. Another player i think have had a major impact is Thiago Silva. He's got a great understanding of where the CDM needs to be on the pitch and there is no doubt in my mind he's been instructing Kante both in training and when on the pitch together.

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14 hours ago, just said:

Oh, it was always going to turn out like this. As wiser people have always said, "form is temporary, class is permanent" .

I'm sorry but that type of thinking is what led to us being stuck with Torres for the better part of half a decade.

Thankfully Kante doesn't seem to have gone down that route (I was seriously concerned last season) but playing someone who's out of form/declined because of a misguided notion that class is permanent is and always has been a one way ticket down the table.

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1 hour ago, Sindre said:

It's worth mentioning that he's been played at CDM before and not been particularly successful. Conte tried it unsuccessfully and Lampard tried it last season, again unsuccesfully.

But it seems Kante is now able to control the space instead of ball-chasing and deserting his position like he's previously done at CDM. Which is absolutely fantastic news obviously and right now Kante is back looking like one of the best midfielders in the league.

Both Lampard and Kante deserve a lot of credit. Another player i think have had a major impact is Thiago Silva. He's got a great understanding of where the CDM needs to be on the pitch and there is no doubt in my mind he's been instructing Kante both in training and when on the pitch together.

Yup, Thiago Silva was our biggest summer signing easily. It’s scary how much of an impact he made on team performance. He helped Reece James and Zouma improve their game massively, and also Kante.

Just shows that experience is invaluable. Without Silva, even with Mendy I think we’d still be struggling defensively.

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1 hour ago, Sindre said:

It's worth mentioning that he's been played at CDM before and not been particularly successful. Conte tried it unsuccessfully and Lampard tried it last season, again unsuccesfully.

But it seems Kante is now able to control the space instead of ball-chasing and deserting his position like he's previously done at CDM. Which is absolutely fantastic news obviously and right now Kante is back looking like one of the best midfielders in the league.

Both Lampard and Kante deserve a lot of credit. Another player i think have had a major impact is Thiago Silva. He's got a great understanding of where the CDM needs to be on the pitch and there is no doubt in my mind he's been instructing Kante both in training and when on the pitch together.

It was EASIER for our opposition to pressure us before, now our CBs look very stable and our keeper is actually secure in commanding his own area, all those details make our team better. Then on top of that, it's a huge thing that James had a full season to gain experience and Chilwell is a very solid LB so we have options to go forward and to transition the ball much calmer in comparison to last seasons where if we didn't play with 3 at the back it was only Azpilicueta that was capable of both putting crosses and helping the team with the transition.

All that is just the defense, when we see Werner that is constantly making runs, he also takes the pressure away from our midfield and backline, maybe not as much as D.Costa that used to take up so much attention but Werner's work rate is just crazy.

Maybe a reason why Kante never played this role before is also because the rest of the team wasn't as good. Now we have hard working players like Mount and a very versatile squad that is more direct, IMO Ziyech is already more influential with his constant long ball threat than any other player we had in the last 3 seasons, yes Azpilicueta and James put up crosses and Jorginho and Kovacic can deliver a long ball but Ziyech can open up the opposition defense in a matter of a second.

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22 hours ago, Slojo said:

We were also a lot better without Kante last season, just saying. 

Anything can change, I'll give him credit where it's due, he's looked good so far. But anything can change in football. 

But this whole Jorginho vs Kante debate is pathetic at this point, and it isn't just Gol15. 

This is true, and I was often critical of his performances, but it's become clear that the issues Kante was having was because of injuries and playing a role in the team that didn't suit him or us. Our best midfield partnership last season was Jorginho and Kovacic, but it wasn't without some serious flaws, especially when it comes to the defensive side of the game. The way we are set up now just seems to have much more of a balance to it. Once Havertz returns, I expect Mount to take Kovacic's spot and I think that will be our main midfield 3 going forward.

Edited by Scott Harris
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50 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

This is true, and I was often critical of his performances, but it's become clear that the issues Kante was having was because of injuries and playing a role in the team that didn't suit him or us. Our best midfield partnership last season was Jorginho and Kovacic, but it wasn't without some serious flaws, especially when it comes to the defensive side of the game. The way we are set up now just seems to have much more of a balance to it. Once Havertz returns, I expect Mount to take Kovacic's spot and I think that will be our main midfield 3 going forward.

Completely agree. Greta to have Kova to add depth for either Havertz or Mount. It’s now how do we get the best out of Jorginho and Gilmour in this system as we’ll need all 6. Hopefully first 3 can stay fit and play majority of PL games. 
wrong thread but I’d still look to move Jorginho on and buy someone more mobile and physical to back up Kante. 

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