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Welcome N’Golo Kante

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42 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You've confused me massively here. Where exactly do you think he used to play? In France he played as a RCM in a three man midfield and previously in England he's played CM in a 2 man midfield. In every single team he's played as the energetic box to box midfielder, never as an anchor. So do you suggest we drop a CM and go back to a two man midfield? People always make the sweeping statement of 'play Kante where he has before', without actually saying what that means. Kante playing where Jorginho would be a completely new role to him and he doesn't have the technical ability to do it well enough.

Superb post, summed it up extremely well about people wanting him back in his position when he never actually left it. Dixon wanted Jorginho and kovacic dropped, that would cure everything apparently. So, yesterday they were out if the team with fabregas and RLC in and our midfielder was non existent when they had the ball. Strangely the all knowing Dixon has been silent about that. 

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4 minutes ago, dkw said:

Superb post, summed it up extremely well about people wanting him back in his position when he never actually left it. Dixon wanted Jorginho and kovacic dropped, that would cure everything apparently. So, yesterday they were out if the team with fabregas and RLC in and our midfielder was non existent when they had the ball. Strangely the all knowing Dixon has been silent about that. 

He did leave it. The fact that he’s never been an anchor doesn’t mean he’s been playing RCM for us or Leicester either.
And I haven’t seen him playing RCM for France either, although I have seen him too many times for them.

He needs to be in the middle of the park somewhere. That’s where he is world class.

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1 minute ago, Sindre said:

He did leave it. The fact that he’s never been an anchor doesn’t mean he’s been playing RCM for us or Leicester either.
And I haven’t seen him playing RCM for France either, although I have seen him too many times for them.

He needs to be in the middle of the park somewhere. That’s where he is world class.

But he hasn't, he has always played as part of a midfield 2 or 3, never as the deep lying defensive midfielder a la makalele. He may have been the middle of the 3 but also plays right for France and even at Leicester. His strengths are dynamism in hunting for the ball so making him patrol a deep are in front of the defence would basically take him away from that strength. 

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5 minutes ago, dkw said:

But he hasn't, he has always played as part of a midfield 2 or 3, never as the deep lying defensive midfielder a la makalele. He may have been the middle of the 3 but also plays right for France and even at Leicester. His strengths are dynamism in hunting for the ball so making him patrol a deep are in front of the defence would basically take him away from that strength. 

Yes, midfield 2. Him and Drinkwater at Leicester and Matic/Baka/Cesc in his last two seasons here.

I fully agree with what you are saying, he's not supposed to be restricted to patroling deep.
But he also shouldn't be put out right as the RCM. For me that is probably be the worst midfield position you could put Kante in.
It's restricting him worse than him being the anchor would.

RCM is not the same position as he's previously played in, in England.

Edited by Sindre

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48 minutes ago, Dixon said:

I'll turn it back to you, because you're the one who's opinion on this is out of touch with an ever increasing majority of Chelsea fans, general football fans and almost everyone in the media. To you, he's playing where he's always played. I dont mean this in a sarcastic way, but i can only say i dont know what you've been watching the past few years.

You've avoided my question because you know what i said is right and you look daft as usual.

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44 minutes ago, dkw said:

Superb post, summed it up extremely well about people wanting him back in his position when he never actually left it. Dixon wanted Jorginho and kovacic dropped, that would cure everything apparently. So, yesterday they were out if the team with fabregas and RLC in and our midfielder was non existent when they had the ball. Strangely the all knowing Dixon has been silent about that. 

I have never once said getting rid of Kova and Jorginho would solve all our problems, so please do not go round putting words into my mouth who I have not said.

If you care to take a look at the Sarri thread you'll see I said the team needs a huge overhall over the next 2 years,  no matter who the manger might be. IMHO, in terms of quality and how far off we are from the best, we're back to around the level we were when Matthew Harding took over.

Forget about systems and managers. To get back competing for the top we need a defence that first and foremost has defenders who are very good at defending. That means no place for the likes of Alonso and error prone Luiz. We need a midfield that is a balanced combination of players who provide good defensive cover and creates and scores goals. We do not have that with Kova, Jorginho and Kante. Then, we obviously need far more up front than what we currently have. Furthermore, the team desperately needs injections of pace from front to back.

Its a huge job for any manager and is going to take a a fair bit of time to bring in the right players. As I said, a huge overhall needed, not just Kova and Jorginho.

 

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30 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You've avoided my question because you know what i said is right and you look daft as usual.

He's gone from a player who played further back, provided defensive cover who could break out with the ball to help the team going forward, to a players who's now too often too far forward  stuck out on the right in no man's land  not providing as much for the team up front or back. Never mind what I think because I'm not a tactical anorak, but you seem to think you know more than pros who've spent their entire working life in the game. You seen to think a manager who's never won a thing knows better than everyone else in football.  I  just go by what I've seen the previous years and seeing now, and I know I'm not seeing half the player I used to see.

Edited by Dixon

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5 hours ago, Dixon said:

He's gone from a player who played further back, provided defensive cover who could break out with the ball to help the team going forward, to a players who's now too often too far forward  stuck out on the right in no man's land  not providing as much for the team up front or back. Never mind what I think because I'm not a tactical anorak, but you seem to think you know more than pros who've spent their entire working life in the game. You seen to think a manager who's never won a thing knows better than everyone else in football.  I  just go by what I've seen the previous years and seeing now, and I know I'm not seeing half the player I used to see.

You've somehow managed to completely miss the mark again. Kante never has and never will be a player who has played further back. With Leicester DD played the deeper of the two and with Chelsea Matic played the deeper of the two. Stick him in any other attacking team and see if he manages to pick up incredible defensive numbers like previous years. Think people need to stop getting a hard on over Kante making 20 tackles a match and realise that striving for attacking football is much more exciting.

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I think Sarri maybe dropped a bollock playing Kante from the start against Wolves, against so called lesser opposition I really don't think we need Kante except to see out a game. For me Kante is untouchable but that doesn't mean he always has to play; I'd like to see Kovacic start at RCM v Brighton, i.e.

Kovacic - Jorginho - Barkley/RLC

Edited by the special one

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In Matic's last season he was in panic at times as Kante had gone further up the pitch to win the ball yet instead it had been pumped over his head for someone to run onto with support leaving Matic stranded. Think it was a big reason he moved on though he might regret that now.

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52 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You've somehow managed to completely miss the mark again. Kante never has and never will be a player who has played further back. With Leicester DD played the deeper of the two and with Chelsea Matic played the deeper of the two. Stick him in any other attacking team and see if he manages to pick up incredible defensive numbers like previous years. Think people need to stop getting a hard on over Kante making 20 tackles a match and realise that striving for attacking football is much more exciting.

Ok then. You are right and just about every journo, pundit, commentator and ex pro is an  idiot on football. If you're such an expert why aren't you a top manager earning millions or doing a cushy job yapping about football in the media?

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59 minutes ago, Dixon said:

Ok then. You are right and just about every journo, pundit, commentator and ex pro is an  idiot on football. 

I would take the opinion of a manager over any of them. Amoungst other things Journo's, pundits, commentators and ex pro's murdered Jose for walzing onto these shores and dropping Cudicini, likewise Conte/Cesc, they ripped Redknapp a new one for playing Modric deep and it ultimately all be it years later got him a Balon Dor, they borderline racially abused Pochettino when he turned up at Southampton because he was apparently a downgrade on Nigel Adkins, they laughed at Pep for dropping a declined Joe Hart and bringing in Ederson who has modernised goalkeeping and lets not get started on the disgraceful hatchet job the Soccer Saturday team did on Marco Silva.

Pundits and jouro's for the most part are full of ridden cliches who just toe the party lines, there's example even more cringy than the one's i just put up, for some beyond wierd reason the general media in this country get butthurt whenever the game modernises further from the basic traditional British ideas, and this is coming from a Brit, i genuinely learn more from fans video's than pundit analysis.

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32 minutes ago, Argo said:

I would take the opinion of a manager over any of them. Amoungst other things Journo's, pundits, commentators and ex pro's murdered Jose for walzing onto these shores and dropping Cudicini, likewise Conte/Cesc, they ripped Redknapp a new one for playing Modric deep and it ultimately all be it years later got him a Balon Dor, they borderline racially abused Pochettino when he turned up at Southampton because he was apparently a downgrade on Nigel Adkins, they laughed at Pep for dropping a declined Joe Hart and bringing in Ederson who has modernised goalkeeping and lets not get started on the disgraceful hatchet job the Soccer Saturday team did on Marco Silva.

Pundits and jouro's for the most part are full of ridden cliches who just toe the party lines, there's example even more cringy than the one's i just put up, for some beyond wierd reason the general media in this country get butthurt whenever the game modernises further from the basic traditional British ideas, and this is coming from a Brit, i genuinely learn more from fans video's than pundit analysis.

 

35 minutes ago, Argo said:

I would take the opinion of a manager over any of them. Amoungst other things Journo's, pundits, commentators and ex pro's murdered Jose for walzing onto these shores and dropping Cudicini, likewise Conte/Cesc, they ripped Redknapp a new one for playing Modric deep and it ultimately all be it years later got him a Balon Dor, they borderline racially abused Pochettino when he turned up at Southampton because he was apparently a downgrade on Nigel Adkins, they laughed at Pep for dropping a declined Joe Hart and bringing in Ederson who has modernised goalkeeping and lets not get started on the disgraceful hatchet job the Soccer Saturday team did on Marco Silva.

Pundits and jouro's for the most part are full of ridden cliches who just toe the party lines, there's example even more cringy than the one's i just put up, for some beyond wierd reason the general media in this country get butthurt whenever the game modernises further from the basic traditional British ideas, and this is coming from a Brit, i genuinely learn more from fans video's than pundit analysis.

There's some good jourrno's, pundits and ex playes (the much derided Stuart Robson is probably one of the best educated people in football} and some rubbish rentagobs as well. There's also good and not very good managers as well. I would of course take the opinion of  the likes of a Pep, Fergie, Wenger over anyone in the media but far from every manager over everyone in the media. We have to be honest and realistic about Sarri. He's and old manager who's never won anything, so its hardly like those having a go at him for messing up with Kante are having a go at a top manager with a long, proven record of success.

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7 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

You've somehow managed to completely miss the mark again. Kante never has and never will be a player who has played further back. With Leicester DD played the deeper of the two and with Chelsea Matic played the deeper of the two. Stick him in any other attacking team and see if he manages to pick up incredible defensive numbers like previous years. Think people need to stop getting a hard on over Kante making 20 tackles a match and realise that striving for attacking football is much more exciting.

The biggest change for Kante i feel is that in all his other teams - Leicester / Chelsea under Conte / France - the teams were more a counter attacking team than a possession based attacking team. Maybe what is being asked of Kante is beyond his current skillset and he needs to improve really fast on the offensive side of the game. 

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56 minutes ago, brownindian said:

The biggest change for Kante i feel is that in all his other teams - Leicester / Chelsea under Conte / France - the teams were more a counter attacking team than a possession based attacking team. Maybe what is being asked of Kante is beyond his current skillset and he needs to improve really fast on the offensive side of the game. 

THIS - spot on! Sarriball is an attacking brand of Football. Despite whether or not Kante's position has changed, his ROLE has changed dramatically to suit Sarri's tactics. Under Conte we played counter-attacking Football, Kante would generally sit deepest in the midfield and put pressure on the opposing team just about everywhere the pitch, would win the ball back, then move it on to a teammate. Under Sarri we obviously don't defend as much (where Kante is at his strongest) and is now being asked to play higher up the pitch in a more advanced position. I don't know what the answer is, do we tweak the formation? Who knows?... Hopefully Sarri... 

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I don’t agree he was further back under Conte. That he wasn’t but his role was completely different yes.
He’s always been a CM, never DCM or RCM. Play to his strengths and you have one of the best central midfielders in the world.
Put him on the right and ask him to be a ball handler, creator and someone that needs to contribute with assists and goals and he’ll look like he does right now. Completely average.

We don’t even get much out of his defensive qualities. Most of the time he’s restricted to covering overlapping fullbacks. That is not what Kante should be worried about. He needs to be smack dab in the middle of the pitch and be all over our opposition as he’s been before this season.

Against Tottenham for example. Most of the time he was babysitting Ben Davies. Why the f*** is N’golo Kante babysitting Ben Davies? That’s not where the danger is going to come from!!

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6 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Against Tottenham for example. Most of the time he was babysitting Ben Davies. Why the f*** is N’golo Kante babysitting Ben Davies? That’s not where the danger is going to come from!!

Well it is, Most of the danger with Spurs comes down the flanks from their fullbacks, its how they play with Erikksen constantly going wide to them or Ali etc. Kante wasnt covering Davies, he was covering the wide right attackinig lane, same as Kovacic was covering the wide left. It didnt work too well though.

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26 minutes ago, dkw said:

Well it is, Most of the danger with Spurs comes down the flanks from their fullbacks, its how they play with Erikksen constantly going wide to them or Ali etc. Kante wasnt covering Davies, he was covering the wide right attackinig lane, same as Kovacic was covering the wide left. It didnt work too well though.

If you go back and look at Kane’s goal, you’ll see Kante literally being busy cutting off the passing lane to Ben Davies. Same goes for most of Son’s chances in the first half.
Most of the time Davies did occupy Tottenham’s wide left.

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16 hours ago, Dixon said:

 

There's some good jourrno's, pundits and ex playes (the much derided Stuart Robson is probably one of the best educated people in football} and some rubbish rentagobs as well. There's also good and not very good managers as well. I would of course take the opinion of  the likes of a Pep, Fergie, Wenger over anyone in the media but far from every manager over everyone in the media. We have to be honest and realistic about Sarri. He's and old manager who's never won anything, so its hardly like those having a go at him for messing up with Kante are having a go at a top manager with a long, proven record of success.

The point is this Kante playing in his best position thing just screams of them collectively licking eachothers arse cheeks, like Ian Wright claiming his interception and pass to Pedro vs Fulham is proof he should play deep centre again failing to adknowlege had he been he wouldn't have been so high up to intercept and if he was he would be playing a dangerous game because of the space he vocates.

There are some good pundits but ultimately there's a reason they are just pundits, even the best ones look crap at trying the managers gig (Neville).

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2 hours ago, Argo said:

The point is this Kante playing in his best position thing just screams of them collectively licking eachothers arse cheeks, like Ian Wright claiming his interception and pass to Pedro vs Fulham is proof he should play deep centre again failing to adknowlege had he been he wouldn't have been so high up to intercept and if he was he would be playing a dangerous game because of the space he vocates.

There are some good pundits but ultimately there's a reason they are just pundits, even the best ones look crap at trying the managers gig (Neville).

Nearly everyone in football talks crap at some time or other, and that includes even the greatest managers.

And then there's the fans opinions of managers, there own teams and the other teams. I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard a fan say a manager is clueless, lost the plot, and the old chant of "you dont know what you're doing" when a struggling manager subs the wrong player.  

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Me and my mate have a joke that there are actually 7 Kantes because he seems to be everywhere at all times. Sometimes he pops up deep winning the ball, he pops up in an around the box every now and again, he’ll have a storming run down either wing and back at the other end helping his full back.

He doesn’t have a position. He’s f**king everywhere!

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Here's my generalizations of roles in Sarri's system in the midfield.

CM's job is to screen the back two central defenders and orchestrate the build up, not much in defensive responsibility other than screening back two, and delaying.  Must have great vision and passing ability, and is typically the first option when the ball is won.  Freed from some defensive responsibility to be the transition starter.  

The 2 outer CM's must be box to box midfielders and have to sometimes defend under the outside defender and cover the gap between the outside defender and center back.  These two must have high work rate and balance offense and defense, he prefers his LCM to be the attacker / goal scorer.  

It seems natural that Kante is on the right as he's the ball winner, if we had a good left footed attacking CM their roles may reverse, but by having the LCM attack he can shoot right footed with a better angle more often.  Kante on the right also helps defend against other teams (other than Liverpool, shooting right footed from some distance).  In other words the only place for Kante to play in his system is RCM, Kovacic is the only CM we have that could play all 3 spots adequately - maybe Ampadu eventually, but he's seemed to be favored in the back).  

He doesn't play with the traditional roles in a 4-3-3 and it seems may pundits want him to play a traditional 4-3-3 it's not at all.

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