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Welcome N’Golo Kante


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4 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Jorgi is a fine player, he's very good at penalties, short passes and understands the game well. But if you think he's anywhere near Kovacic in terms of skill, physicality, even shooting and what he offers to break up opponents, I really don't see a point. The fact that you need to mention Jorgis vice captaincy and the last season -when Sarri did everything to accomodate teacher's pet- shows that you're grasping at straws when I comes to analyzing the player.

Since you even went so far to say Kova is only better at dribbling and running with the ball imho you either have a terrible confirmation bias or you just don't have what it takes to understand what is actually happening on the pitch. In both cases it would be a waste of energy to convince you otherwise. No hard feelings though.

I don't see why it would be wrong to take in count the obvious growth of the player that in his second season became the vice-captain. To point out that he became the vice-captain is relevant, he's a leader and influences the whole team in a good way, and leaders we need.

Sarri did everything for Jorginho, he was his first and most important signing, but my post clearly shows that Jorginho is not slowing down in the second season even when Sarri isn't there anymore he is still putting up the highest numbers so basically there are no straws just flat out facts all in order. Sarri also wanted Kovacic, they came at the same time which is why I can talk about the whole time period from the moment Jorginho came till today. Even if you want to argue that Kovacic is a more physical player he clearly has much less of the football iq since Jorginho is a bigger influence for the whole squad. 

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Not good enough again. I didn't want to go on, but even in the first half I was getting annoyed with his distribution, his control and passing is very average, it's hard to get the ball moving quickly when he takes a good 2-3 seconds to turn around with it and get a hold of it properly. 

Lampard has to sit him out for me, he doesn't deserve to be starting games, he's playing on reputation at the moment and reputation only, he's had one good game in 2 months. 

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He played like he usually did but my God that slip was the cherry on top, we would've won despite having him on if it wasn't for that uncharacteristic mistake.

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The problem with Kante is nothing to do with his form and entirely to do with 'why the f**k is he being asked to play there'

Sarri did it and got hammered for it by Chelsea fans. Now Lampard is doing it but becayse it's Lampard it's now Kante instead of Lampard who is getting criticised.

If we asked Jorginho to play there. Or James to play left wing. Or Rudiger to play up front. They'd all struggle badly. If we asked Tammy to play on goals he'd be sh*t... But still better than Kepa.


Kante is our only world class player. He is head and shoulders above everybody else in our squad. So it boggles the mind why two managers in a row have asked him to play anywhere other than his best role so as to accommodate lesser players.

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I disagree with one, might be worth a go. 
I hear you but I'm still hoping I get the shout ahead of Tammy. I come for crosses like a Christian porn film.

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Worst thing that happened to us is Luiz getting sent off. That meant arsenal could sit, absorb and counter, which a midfield of kante and jorginho can't play against. Mount and kovacic are doing the job that Sarri got Kante doing last year, arguably as effectively if not more. 

Lampard needed to take off kante at half time and bring on Barkley. He still hasn't realised yet kante is a problem when teams defend deep. Everything goes wide and is then crossed in, which is pointless when only one player in our team is capable of scoring from a cross in open play (and then he's not actually that great at it yet). I wonder why Alonso isn't given a shot more in these games as he can burst through but lampard isn't setting us up differently against poor teams (ironically the opposite problem of sarri who never set us up differently against top teams).

Ultimately we are missing a midfielder who can break teams, bully teams and score with his head and feet. We have only one in our squad but he's been injured since May.

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39 minutes ago, loz said:

The problem with Kante is nothing to do with his form and entirely to do with 'why the f**k is he being asked to play there'

Sarri did it and got hammered for it by Chelsea fans. Now Lampard is doing it but becayse it's Lampard it's now Kante instead of Lampard who is getting criticised.

If we asked Jorginho to play there. Or James to play left wing. Or Rudiger to play up front. They'd all struggle badly. If we asked Tammy to play on goals he'd be sh*t... But still better than Kepa.


Kante is our only world class player. He is head and shoulders above everybody else in our squad. So it boggles the mind why two managers in a row have asked him to play anywhere other than his best role so as to accommodate lesser players.
 

I'm criticising both. Even though I didn't like Kante playing this role under Sarri, he was still playing better than he has been this season.

The thing people keep saying is that by playing Kante deeper, it limits him because he can do so much more than just defend. But the way I see it is that Kante's best attributes by far are his defensive ones, so those are the ones we should be making the most of. Yes, we know he can contribute to the attack, but those are bonuses and definitely should not be the main focus of Kante's game. 

For me, it's as simple as this at this point, who do you build the team around, Jorginho or Kante? Because from what I have seen, they can't work together. Kante's position is Jorginho's position, but with a different playing style. Kante's at his best when he is deep, breaking up play, and restarting attacks. With Jorginho there, he can't be that player, he has to play forward more because we need that extra player in attack. 

The question is, can Jorginho be the player that plays the attacking role? Seeing as every manager never wants to try it, I would say no. I don't doubt that Jorginho has the quality to pick out a pass in attacking areas, but in those areas, it can't be at his own pace like it is from deep, I think he would really struggle with the pace and strength of the league playing in that position. He would be bullied. 

 

This is what I think would work best for us.

Jorginho - Kovacic / Barkley

    New player / Mount

               OR

Kante - Kovacic / Barkley

    New player / Mount

 

Any combination with Jorginho and Kante will never work for me. If we go with Kante ahead of Jorginho, I think we would need to change our playing style a bit too. Also, if Loftus-Cheek returns to his best, then a new player won't be needed.

Edited by Scott Harris

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Exactly my point Scott. Kante should play where Jorginho plays and play it his way, not try and play it Jorginho's way. He is being asked to play out of position to accommodate other players and because he is the only one who is remotely good enough to try and play so far out of his comfort zone. But it's a mistake and we are paying the price for it.

 

 

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With Kante as a starter in the PL we have won 5 drawn 3 lost 6

Without Kante we have won 7 drawn 1 lost 2.

—————————————————————————————

These are the stats which confirms what I have been thinking for quite some time...

Personally, Kante is no longer a starter for me and the stats seem to support this?

Whether the positioning has been the reason or not Kante is no longer the world class player he once was.

Edited by cfcblue

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The problem with playing Kanté in a midfield three is that you negate the biggest advantage he provides us. His ability to cover ground, and his ability to read the game mean that he is able to single-handedly make up for a numerical disadvantage in midfield, allowing us to put another player elsewhere. So either:

- You put that extra man in defence. It provides more cover and another man to a very shaky backline, and also has the added benefit of pushing the full-backs forward, which addresses the disaster we currently have at left-back;

- You put the extra man behind the striker (ideally Willian), giving us someone to actually link up play in the final third and address the current issues we are having in breaking teams down;

- You play two up front (hopefully Cavani).

 

Negating the qualities of our only actual world-class player in order to accommodate Jorginho is utterly baffling. The other areas of the first XI are crying out for reinforcement - why on earth not provide it?

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Fair is fair. And as i gave Sarri plenty of stick for playing him out of position, Lampard deserves the same.

Now i am not entirely convinced there is room for Kante if we are to move forward with a possession-based team. Because he will always struggle against teams that defend deep.
He'll always thrive for the "underdog" team that can counter but his shortcomings become incredibly obvious when we dominate possession.

When we have the ball he takes up some "De Bruyne" position as a key part of our attacking play and he just doesn't have the quality to do it.

Given a choice between keep playing him in his current role and look to replace him with someone better offensively you'd have to start thinking about the second option.
Because current Kante isn't the world-class Kante and he wasn't last season either.

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3 hours ago, cfcblue said:

 

With Kante as a starter in the PL we have won 5 drawn 3 lost 6

Without Kante we have won 7 drawn 1 lost 2.

—————————————————————————————

 

49 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Kante in team 36% win percentage and 71% without him 

And football really, really is as simple as that.

FFS, I despair a lot these days.

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And football really, really is as simple as that.
FFS, I despair a lot these days.
We have a better win percentage when there is a sunny day with a light North westerly. I suggest we invest in a roof, some lamps and an industrial fan.

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Those stats are relevant though, in my opinion. Kante is having a wretched season, whatever the reason. He won the PL twice with different clubs, won the FA Cup and won the WC. Those are all relevant stats too. He was playing phenomenally, in a role or a system that suited him. He was intrinsic to those winning stats and I'm afraid he's also intrinsic to our losing stats. I was very upset when I saw him in the starting line-up yesterday and I said so. I just don't think he's improving our chances of winning. Whether that's Frank's fault or his or a combination of both is up for grabs, but right now, when he plays, we just aren't as good, generally speaking, and we're nearly in February, so I think it's a fair enough number of games to make that appraisal.

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56 minutes ago, loz said:
2 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:
And football really, really is as simple as that.
FFS, I despair a lot these days.

We have a better win percentage when there is a sunny day with a light North westerly. I suggest we invest in a roof, some lamps and an industrial fan.

We always win when I have my leopard-print thong on, we always lose when I put my rings on in the wrong order and we very nearly always draw when we score the same amount of goals as the opposing team.

Edited by yorkleyblue

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13 hours ago, loz said:

The problem with Kante is nothing to do with his form and entirely to do with 'why the f**k is he being asked to play there'

Sarri did it and got hammered for it by Chelsea fans. Now Lampard is doing it but becayse it's Lampard it's now Kante instead of Lampard who is getting criticised.

If we asked Jorginho to play there. Or James to play left wing. Or Rudiger to play up front. They'd all struggle badly. If we asked Tammy to play on goals he'd be sh*t... But still better than Kepa.

Kante is our only world class player. He is head and shoulders above everybody else in our squad. So it boggles the mind why two managers in a row have asked him to play anywhere other than his best role so as to accommodate lesser players.

When Sarri did it we had Hazard taking up 2-3 defenders, now we have lost our true world class player we cannot afford round pegs in square holes.

He is being played there because we have built a possession based side, keeper kicks the ball out, defenders pass, Jorginho monitors and supports and feeds the players further forward.

Kante is world class and recovering the ball, less useful when you are a possession based side. The other teams let him have the ball as he doesn't know what to do with it.

The only place he can play is in Jorginho's position yet that might kill our creativity coming out of defence, Kante is reactive not creative. 

 

 

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By the same results-based argument, you could make a case for playing Kante over Jorginho as well, albeit slightly smaller data sample for the positive side of it.

The take-away for me is that we lose the balance in midfield when they both play, which is borne out in the results when they have played together .... so Frank needs to pin his hat on one or the other basically ...

With Jorginho in PL : Won 8 drawn 4 lost 7

Without Jorginho : Won 4 drawn 0 lost 1 (Kante played in all those games)

Jorginho/Kante both play : won 1 drawn 3 lost 5

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5 hours ago, cfcblue said:

 

With Kante as a starter in the PL we have won 5 drawn 3 lost 6

Without Kante we have won 7 drawn 1 lost 2.

—————————————————————————————

These are the stats which confirms what I have been thinking for quite some time...

Personally, Kante is no longer a starter for me and the stats seem to support this?

Whether the positioning has been the reason or not Kante is no longer the world class player he once was.

Actually we haven't lost 1 without Kante. He came on in the United game, but yes he wasn't a starter. 

Without Kante we have 7 wins and 1 draw. 

With Kante we have 8 losses, 3 draws and 5 wins. That's a pretty shocking stat, one that some people keep ignoring. 

image.thumb.png.7fb6b7cb6c246787e7537157e7d1d1e6.png

Edited by Slojo

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