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David Luiz back at Chelsea


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19 hours ago, goose said:

Have not been able to check in this past 4 hours. To save me trawling through 20 odd pages of posts can someone tell me has 'Just' posted

his reaction yet.

 

Yes, mate he has.  Had a little interaction with him a few pages earlier.  Let's just say he wasn't impressed, and I think eh was off to the gym to take some aggression out on a punch bag 

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The one question that needs to be asked is, will whatever errors that come cost us more points than Cahill moonwalking and getting sold dummies? I like Gary's passion but he should have never been a starter here, it was my biggest grudge against Jose in the first two season's back and the best thing Hiddink did was drop him until unfortunate circumstances brought him back in by default.

Solid homegrown squad option but that's all he should have ever been.

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23 minutes ago, Argo said:

Bonucci was a joke before Conte took hold of him and moulded him into what he is today, unfortunately as David is already 29 it's probably too late for a similar rise, but Luiz's problems are more self concentration as opposed to opposition taking him to the cleaners, if Conte can work on his concentration issue's and minimize how many f**k up's he makes, then he is a nailed on starter in this team and probably the best defender as well.

Conte shares a lot of similarities with Simeone in how mean they make their defenses, the Argentine has made a good defender out of Stevan Savic, remember him? the total joke at City, one of the worst defenders in a top team of all time, that alone makes me confident Conte can work on Luiz even at 29.

Ta for the reply. I hope Conte knows how to work on his defensive concentration, although I doubt he will improve much in his come back. However, we are just speculating here. Based on what we all know about Luiz's play, I don't see us using safely a back of 3 with him (no matter how good he is with the ball, defensively lacks concentration). I would prefer to see a back of 4, as I mentioned before. But I trust Conte and am sure he will apply the best tactics according to the players he has. If he trusts Luiz in a back 3, I'm a priori happy with his choice.

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12 minutes ago, Argo said:

The one question that needs to be asked is, will whatever errors that come cost us more points than Cahill moonwalking and getting sold dummies? I like Gary's passion but he should have never been a starter here, it was my biggest grudge against Jose in the first two season's back and the best thing Hiddink did was drop him until unfortunate circumstances brought him back in by default.

Solid homegrown squad option but that's all he should have ever been.

The Cahill and Terry partnership was a big part of our league win remember, they were the best CB's in the league that season.

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1 minute ago, RMH said:

Ta for the reply. I hope Conte knows how to work on his defensive concentration, although I doubt he will improve much in his come back. However, we are just speculating here. Based on what we all know about Luiz's play, I don't see us using safely a back of 3 with him (no matter how good he is with the ball, defensively lacks concentration). I would prefer to see a back of 4, as I mentioned before. But I trust Conte and am sure he will apply the best tactics according to the players he has. If he trusts Luiz in a back 3, I'm a priori happy with his choice.

I think 3-5-2 is out of the question this season, when Andreas returns it could be a possibility, especially if we get another defender suited to that system and Kenedy perfoms at LWB at Watford.

1 minute ago, Chelsbear said:

The Cahill and Terry partnership was a big part of our league win remember, they were the best CB's in the league that season.

Cahill was good in the second half of the season when Jose adopted defensive tactics to get us over the line, when we were more adventurous in the first half of the season i thought he was our weak link. He deserved his medal but that's beyond the point, Huth and Morgan were a part of Leicester's title win but would a single Chelsea fan want them here?

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The guy who played in pain during the CL Final how many modern footballers would put their careers at risk for any club like that.

Give the guy a break I am loving it hes back I know i will shout at him in the future but it will not take away the fact hes one of my favs and will leave it all on the pitch for us

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2 hours ago, g3.7 said:

Dorset that is one hell of an effort. You could fashion a silk purse from the ears of a pig that had done 12 rounds with Mike tyson. 

I'm afraid I really can't agree with much of it though, and I strongly suspect had we signed stones and city Luiz you'd be laughing your way to the word bank. 

Let's start with stones. Depending on the source, it could be he cost merely £10m more. Obviously we had no chance of signing him this summer, but it is worth thinking about. 

Also think about the fact he's been in a struggling Everton side working under the defensive genius Roberto martinez. Luiz has worked under benitez, blanc, mourinho and ancelotti. There isn't anything this group, in totality, don't know about being a defender or coaching a defender.  And as a result of working with them ,  we have a player in his theoretical peak who is described by a French journalist as worse than he was when he left. 

If he's better than stones (and imo he's got nothing on him, let alone stone's potential to improve) why did Jose sell him and try to sign the supposedly inferior player? Why were psg happy to sell him at a loss with no chance of signing a replacement? Think of that - people seem to think my contention that I'd rather have no-one than mad Dave is overstating my case. Psg have actually made that choice.   Where was guardiola's interest in this genius footballer?  Stones does have mistakes to iron out as you say, presumably you'd  characterise luiz' as permanent wrinkles? Unai emery is creasing himself at any rate. 

I really object to this,  it reads like the unpublished sequel to the emperor's new clothes,  or, if you prefer, the devil wears pravda. 

Maybe that is below the belt or out of line, perhaps you could call this a rush of blood to the head...  but then I guess that would be apposite when we're talking about David Luiz. 

Tackling, heading, blocking etc dont need to be analysed separately to judge a defender. 

Defending isnt one or many attributes. You can't distill it.  Defending is the appliance of those qualities. You dont judge a magician on his props. You judge him based on whether he manages to deceive you. Something dave has managed to do with rather more success than his day job,  in my assessment. 

What kind of reasoning is this?  imagine what a pathetic, sorry club it would be to cower from a signing in fear of the fans crying on social media. It would be nice if decisions were taken with the benefit of the team in mind rather than appeasing the false or idle.  "Think what you're doing! Signing david Luiz won't bring back your failed crop of youth team players!" 

Come on mate, with a bit of luck he might be. 

If he's better than stones (and imo he's got nothing on him, let alone stone's potential to improve) why did Jose sell him and try to sign the supposedly inferior player? 

My guess would be that it was good business to sell for £50m and there was every likelihood of getting Stones for much less. It didn’t happen, but not because the ability of either player, or an assessment of it, affected that situation.

Why were psg happy to sell him at a loss with no chance of signing a replacement?

I’m not sure that PSG even knew of our interest until late-on or can be described as happy to sell at all. As you said, they had no time to get any replacement in and, like any of big [un-Everton-ish] clubs you can name, were not prepared to keep an unhappy player. Stick with the dodged bullet theory if you wish, but the only similarities seem be that they are both ‘didn’t see that coming’ scenarios, no more no less. 

Where was guardiola's interest in this genius footballer?

Admittedly, any interest from Guardiola would have come as a surprise, [eccentric] genius or not, but he probably wasn’t aware of availability either. He has other younger fish to fry [try] in an ageing squad that he too cannot afford to flood with youth prospects, although whether many of those exist at the Etihad I seriously doubt. Stones provided a viable English alternative and suitable home grown get out clause, so it was taken regardless of inflated price.

You dont judge a magician on his props. You judge him based on whether he manages to deceive you. Something dave has managed to do with rather more success than his day job,  in my assessment. 

Day job deception by sleight of hand rather than foot is an interesting accusation to make - could it be akin to JT hiding his lack of pace all these years by tricking us all into thinking he can actually defend? More fool us, eh?

What kind of reasoning is this?  imagine what a pathetic, sorry club it would be to cower from a signing in fear of the fans crying on social media. It would be nice if decisions were taken with the benefit of the team in mind rather than appeasing the false or idle.  "Think what you're doing! Signing david Luiz won't bring back your failed crop of youth team players!" 

Don’t get me wrong on this point. I have no grouse with the Glazers or the Abu Dhabi boys spending as much as they like, just don’t seek to make a virtue out of it whilst at the same time shipping the kids out by the boatload to the Moyes Strait [back down again] or Phelandia.

Also in answer to my "… and say what you like about David Luiz - he will never, ever be described as mediocre." 

Come on mate, with a bit of luck he might be. 

A nice drowning of the player well below the mediocre waterline line there g3, but as we both know with these charismatic characters, it will take a lot more than this put down to sink their spirit, never mind a lot of fans admiration of it.      
 

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1 hour ago, mclovin83 said:

I must say, in my opnion,  the view that Luiz 'can't defend' or is a 'liability' has become something of a characature of itself, in terms of an opinion. 

Luiz has that reputation for his high profile mistakes, although they are not nearly as frequent as his critics would have you believe. 

The side to his game which lets him down is his decision making, normally trying to get in behind the striker and nicking the ball. When it comes  off he instantly wins possesion and turns defence into attack, when it doesn't come off he looks rather silly and we are exposed. I don't disagree that this is the downside to his game. 

What I do think is worth remembering however, is that when it comes to pace, power, physicality, he has it all in abundance. With the ball at his feet he is comfortably better than any other defender we have; his skill set is diverse, unlike others. 

The point I was making though, is that I think he is remembered more for his mistakes due to the nature of them. Basically, they do make him look silly. If you counted up his individual errors and how many goals they have costed compared to the likes of Cahill would it be much, if at all worse? I don't think so, but Cahill obviously doens't have a reputation of not being able to defend. Luiz has a vast array of attributes that Cahil (and others) don't though.  

He has been first choice at PSG for two years and whilst their weekly opposition may be a step down from the Premiership, his performances against us in the Champions League didn't showcase him as a defender who 'couldn't defend' In fact, he was a right pain in the arse from a Chelsea fans point of view. 

He also has 55 caps for Brazil let's not forget. 

I am not trying to pretend Luiz is something he isn't here. I have stated already that he wouldn't have been my first choice for the very reason his critics are banging on about- he isn't Mr reliable and he will always have that rash decision in him. 

I do however think the notion that he 'can't defend' is hyberbole.

Great post. Glad someone went through the effort of posting what I would expect to be blatantly obvious to those saying he can't defend.

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He can't defend. It's competely undeniable. There are loads of videos online of his gaffs and howlers. Way more than for any other modern centre-half. It is a regular occurence for him whoever he plays for. He hasn't got any better at PSG. It is in his DNA.

You can argue that ex-pro football pundits have an agenda but they are as one when it comes to their views on Luiz as defender. He is pish. And they are right.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3040706/David-Luiz-defended-like-eight-year-old-hasn-t-coached-claims-Glenn-Hoddle.html

 

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1817061-david-luizs-defensive-howler-lets-in-cardiffs-jordan-mutch-to-score-at-chelsea

 

There are loads to look at if the memory needs a jog.

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If you look at Conte's sides of the past he has always had a ball playing centre back that can pick those long passes out for the strikers kind of how Bonucci did at the Euros, I think that's what he is looking for in Luiz who you would think would be much more comfortable in a back 3. With Kante in front of him those silly mistakes he makes could be papered over then we will get the benefits of him going forward.

Wasn't the biggest fan of this transfer but will get behind him and hopefully he can prove to be a big hit.

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"Having completed their moves to Stamford Bridge yesterday, Marcos Alonso and David Luiz have had their squad numbers announced and our Premier League squad list has been confirmed. 

Alonso, a left-back, will wear the No.3 shirt while David Luiz has taken the No.30. His previous number at Chelsea, the 4, was given to Cesc Fabregas when the midfielder signed."

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2016/08/squad-numbers-for-new-signings-confirmed.html

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@mclovin83 @Remodez

I haven't seen one post from any luiz apologist that explains why they think he's a good defender. I've seen lists of his undoubted qualities, but not one person has written to say that they think he's a good defender and why that is. not one.

mclovin, your defence of him was littered with so many caveats it looked like a boris johnson victory speech.  " The side to his game which lets him down is his decision making" you say. well, that is the most succinct, most perfect encapsulation of what defending is. it is an unglamorous business- anticipating the worst case scenario and making the most pragmatic decision. time after time, minute after minute until the game is done. you can't pass off decision making as if it is a small factor! 

I took the liberty of looking up the word liability, just to check it wasn't hyperbole:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/liability

" A person or thing whose presence or behaviour is likely to put one at a disadvantage " for me, that is a perfect description of luiz. a perfect description. 

@Dorset

thanks for the reply. 

I think you are putting the (pan)gloss on a difficult issue as you often do and I think that is valuable with all of the negativity that surrounds the boards at times (and of which I am a proponent on this topic). I always read your posts and that is why I'm sure in your heart you aren't pleased that stones has gone to city and not us. you were a persistent and fantastic advocate for his signing even when he lost his form. I also cannot recall you lamenting our sale of luiz and I know that you can't be pleased that his signing pushes aina and tomori further away from the first team. 

forget fees for one minute (although in fact it emerged luiz was sold for less than £40m, never mind the £50m that was reported at the time), I guess I would ask you if you a) would rather have stones or luiz in our squad and b) how highly do you value defensive reliability in a central defender?

 

39 minutes ago, barak81 said:

We conceded 50 plus goals last season because of him, true story 

shouldn't this post be accompanied by a tin man, judy garland and a cowardly lion?

maybe you think it was a coincidence that we won the league the season directly before luiz signed, and directly after he left? guess he was unlucky eh...

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@g3.7 and two European trophys with him, the point was not in any way related to the actuall performance last season. I don't know maybe your lacking sleep but if you connect the dots with the post I quoted it's quite clear that I'm saying everything Luiz does is under a microscope like Costa in some ways, Ivan for one will be glad he's back 

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10 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

@mclovin83 @Remodez

I haven't seen one post from any luiz apologist that explains why they think he's a good defender. I've seen lists of his undoubted qualities, but not one person has written to say that they think he's a good defender and why that is. not one.

mclovin, your defence of him was littered with so many caveats it looked like a boris johnson victory speech.  " The side to his game which lets him down is his decision making" you say. well, that is the most succinct, most perfect encapsulation of what defending is. it is an unglamorous business- anticipating the worst case scenario and making the most pragmatic decision. time after time, minute after minute until the game is done. you can't pass off decision making as if it is a small factor! 

I took the liberty of looking up the word liability, just to check it wasn't hyperbole:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/liability

" A person or thing whose presence or behaviour is likely to put one at a disadvantage " for me, that is a perfect description of luiz. a perfect description. 

@Dorset

thanks for the reply. 

I think you are putting the (pan)gloss on a difficult issue as you often do and I think that is valuable with all of the negativity that surrounds the boards at times (and of which I am a proponent on this topic). I always read your posts and that is why I'm sure in your heart you aren't pleased that stones has gone to city and not us. you were a persistent and fantastic advocate for his signing even when he lost his form. I also cannot recall you lamenting our sale of luiz and I know that you can't be pleased that his signing pushes aina and tomori further away from the first team. 

forget fees for one minute (although in fact it emerged luiz was sold for less than £40m, never mind the £50m that was reported at the time), I guess I would ask you if you a) would rather have stones or luiz in our squad and b) how highly do you value defensive reliability in a central defender?

 

shouldn't this post be accompanied by a tin man, judy garland and a cowardly lion?

maybe you think it was a coincidence that we won the league the season directly before luiz signed, and directly after he left? guess he was unlucky eh...

I'll leave you with this diagram.

Despite his undenaible flaws our defense were quite clearly better with him in it than without. Not only with the stats I saw it with my own eyes too, i remember one game away to Levekusen, for 70 minutes we didn't give the German's any opening's, we were 1-0 up then Luiz got subbed off, all off a sudden they started swarming all over us, creating chances at will and turned the game round to beat us 2-1, if Luiz was the one who came on at 70 minutes that night which triggered the seige Bayer threw at us it would have been used against him forever.

CrMeNkfWEAAWPqM.jpg

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