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David Luiz back at Chelsea


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@barak81 maybe I am sleep deprived because actually I'm not sure I do understand it. 

 

@Argo interpretation is always interesting. in the leverkusen match you could say luiz went off and as a consequence we lost. but you could say that if a team is at home and losing by one goal the natural consequence is late on the defending side drops deep and concedes territory as the home side pushes to get back in the game. it happens all the time, and did so with luiz in and out of the side.

as for the graph, it is totally lacking in the kind of specificity we need for it to be useful. I note it doesn't include stats from the season before or after he left. or whether he was in midfield or not. or whether we had given up on the league during any of those games (such as under robbie, going for the cups for example). it doesn't tell us who was his manager at the time. it doesn't say who he was playing alongside. 

personally, there are too many variables to take it seriously. 

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3 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

@barak81 maybe I am sleep deprived because actually I'm not sure I do understand it. 

 

@Argo interpretation is always interesting. in the leverkusen match you could say luiz went off and as a consequence we lost. but you could say that if a team is at home and losing by one goal the natural consequence is late on the defending side drops deep and concedes territory as the home side pushes to get back in the game. it happens all the time, and did so with luiz in and out of the side.

as for the graph, it is totally lacking in the kind of specificity we need for it to be useful. I note it doesn't include stats from the season before or after he left. or whether he was in midfield or not. or whether we had given up on the league during any of those games (such as under robbie, going for the cups for example). it doesn't tell us who was his manager at the time. it doesn't say who he was playing alongside. 

personally, there are too many variables to take it seriously. 

Well I can't remember the exact figures but I actually kept a tally track of those stats for the first 12 months and a bit like on that paragraph, the with Luiz stats were a lot more in favour than without, and in his first year he was always a centre half. I also recall the famous high line AVB tried to play up until December, with Luiz in it actually was ok but without him it was a disaster, like against Arsenal.

David's problem is not inability to defend, Bosingwa is an example of someone who can't defend, it's his rush of bloods, which often stand out when they happen, it happens more than it should but nowhere near as often as is made out.

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@g3.7 I can only speak for myself here but it's quite simple really. I think he's a good defender because he's had plenty of good games for us. I can't remember every single one of his 100+ games for us, I would be surprised if anyone can, but I would be willingly to wager he's had more good games than bad. Your comments I've seen in this thread seem to suggest this is not the case and that in the majority of his time here he was a liability, which simply isn't true. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me but that's the impression I have got from reading your posts.

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@Argo I appreciate what you're saying but without those stats I couldn't even begin to make a conclusion. Like most though I rely on what I see,  I saw him live every other week for years and he's a player I have no doubt about. 

I think he's exactly like bosingwa was as it goes, only in a position where it hurt us more. He's certainly a bigger talent though. 

 

@Remodez

9 minutes ago, Remodez said:

I would be willingly to wager he's had more good games than bad

This is the thing. For a defender, better than one in two is so incredibly far from what is required. It is all about consistency. Two two good games in three would still be well short.  Wagering he's probably had more good games than bad days it all. Like pretty much all defences him,  you're condemned out of your own mouth.

Better than one in two good games is what we are aiming for from Victor moses. A squad player in an attacking position. 

 

Anyway thanks for the replies all. I won't be adding to this thread for a while and don't expect me to come in here if he makes a mistake saying I was right or anything. Hopefully I'll be back eating my words,  but I'm not optimistic. 

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50 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

@Argo I appreciate what you're saying but without those stats I couldn't even begin to make a conclusion. Like most though I rely on what I see,  I saw him live every other week for years and he's a player I have no doubt about. 

I think he's exactly like bosingwa was as it goes, only in a position where it hurt us more. He's certainly a bigger talent though. 

 

@Remodez

This is the thing. For a defender, better than one in two is so incredibly far from what is required. It is all about consistency. Two two good games in three would still be well short.  Wagering he's probably had more good games than bad days it all. Like pretty much all defences him,  you're condemned out of your own mouth.

Better than one in two good games is what we are aiming for from Victor moses. A squad player in an attacking position. 

 

Anyway thanks for the replies all. I won't be adding to this thread for a while and don't expect me to come in here if he makes a mistake saying I was right or anything. Hopefully I'll be back eating my words,  but I'm not optimistic. 

Not being consistent is completely different from not being able to defend though, which is the point you and others have been mentioning. He obviously can defend, very well too might I add, and unlike the likes of Moses has proven it time and time again in the big games. 

By all means complain about the fee and his consistency but saying he can't defend or calling him a liability is an overreaction based on a relatively small sample size compared to the amount of good games he's had for us. 

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I think most of the people in here objecting to his signing acting like a 13 year old is simply forgetting this guy helped us to two European trophies in two seasons. I honestly cant remember his mistakes i can only remember his screamers which are plenty.

This isn't 10 years ago when we could pick and choose who we buy money is rampant in football now more so than ever before especially in the Premier League and we dont have the pulling power of CL so for him to leave a club where he will be guaranteed CL and trophies shows this is more than just than just moving clubs this guy loves Chelsea to the core. 

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2 hours ago, g3.7 said:

@ArgoAnyway thanks for the replies all. I won't be adding to this thread for a while and don't expect me to come in here if he makes a mistake saying I was right or anything. Hopefully I'll be back eating my words,  but I'm not optimistic. 

 

Brilliant contribution from you to this thread, and it's a great thread in general, with many brilliant posts, on both sides of the divide. I'm stuck in the middle of this one, but I agree with @mclovin83, as I often tend to do. Luiz wouldn't be my first choice, far from it, but given the situation, I agree with the signing, and I think it makes us better as a team. Yes I've changed my mind a bit over the last 48 hours. I can see the sense in it. I'm disappointed we didn't get the manager's top targets but given that, he had to make a decision, and I think he's made the right one, because he's no idiot. Luiz isn't a top defender, he's capable yes, far more capable than most, but he lacks many ingredients that top defenders have, such as focus, discipline, consistency, reliability. On the other hand he's better than Cahill in my opinion, who's not a top-level player for me though I'm happy to have him in the squad. Cahill's more consistent, obviously, but he's not a natural defender for me, he has to think about what he's doing, and I'm afraid he's not quick-witted enough.

 

Luiz gets into our first XI, that's a crucial thing. He's good on the ball, he can hit a pass, he has the physical and athletic attributes. These are all very important to the manager, clearly. Conte has a way he wants to play, that's the important thing here. He wasn't looking for just anybody, he was looking for a top defender who fit his idea. He couldn't get top so he compromised, in order to implement his strategy. Are we better with Luiz than without? We are better, having thought about it. We have a better chance this season, possibly even a significantly better chance. That's all that matters to Conte. He had to get somebody in. Terry gets injured and all of a sudden we have a problem. Who does he get? It has to be somebody who can do the things he wants. Conte will probably drum his message home until Luiz is sick of hearing it but Conte obviously feels he has good reason to believe he can get what he wants from him. He wants to play a high quality game and he obviously feels the ceiling is high with Luiz, higher than any other option available to him. He's gone for it. I'm glad he has.

 

Conte wanted a player with certain exceptional qualities, otherwise we'd have gone for Mustafi or one of countless others who would have represented an upgrade on Cahill, probably, but wouldn't bring enough to the party. Conte wants a bit more, it appears to me. Luiz has got that bit more but unfortunately defensively there are flaws, where perhaps you'd sacrifice the odd 10 out of 10 performance for a few more 8s. That's the compromise Conte had to make, right there. That's the one he had to think about. Is it worth it? He's deemed it is.

 

Luiz is a curious player. A maverick, playing in an age and in a position in which mavericks are hardly encouraged. He's capable of the sublime and the ridiculous, as we know. He can be truly f**king awful, let's not beat around the bush, but he can also be bloody brilliant, that is undeniable too. He's 29 yet only played 3 years of his career in a top league, which seems strange, especially for someone who's commanded such huge fees. He's a passionate fellow, he brings charisma and personality to the team, leadership qualities and no little spirit. He also puts a smile on people's faces. Football is about emotion too don't forget. The Brazilian public forgave him far more than most during the last WC, because he cares, and we've got a footballer who cares, and that will appeal to Conte, though I'm sure the manager thought long and hard about it. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision. People talk about Luiz scoring against us, and his reaction, but I have no problem with it. Luiz is competitive, as we saw in his battles against Costa, he wants to win, that's all he cared about on the night and he was right, he can worry about making friends later.

 

Anyway that's my take on it, now that I've thought about it. He's not my favourite player, far from it, but I'm cautiously optimistic. He'll be far from perfect but not half as bad as some might fear. He'll do okay for us. He'll improve us, at least in the short-term. We were in a pickle and we've made the best of a bad job. It's not the disaster some people think.

 

Forza Conte.

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46 minutes ago, Barry Bridges said:

To be fair, the only time I bring up Bosingwa these days is when describing my cousin's eyebrows.

I'm sorry for your cousin's loss. To lose one of your eyebrows to monobrow-itis is difficult, my thoughts are with you and your family.

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Wouldn't expect a critical piece on our website about Luiz signing, but I do like some of the points being raised here...and while I know I've been critical of the board's performance in last few Windows, all the negativity in the press about Luiz coming back has got my goat a bit...other clubs make questionable signings, including Spurs splashing out basically the same for Sissoko as Luiz, but as always it is chelsea who are being criticised and mocked...

anyway, Giles smith puts forward a strong defence here:

 

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2016/09/giles-smith--back-for-the-future.html

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17 hours ago, g3.7 said:

@mclovin83 @Remodez

I haven't seen one post from any luiz apologist that explains why they think he's a good defender. I've seen lists of his undoubted qualities, but not one person has written to say that they think he's a good defender and why that is. not one.

mclovin, your defence of him was littered with so many caveats it looked like a boris johnson victory speech.  " The side to his game which lets him down is his decision making" you say. well, that is the most succinct, most perfect encapsulation of what defending is. it is an unglamorous business- anticipating the worst case scenario and making the most pragmatic decision. time after time, minute after minute until the game is done. you can't pass off decision making as if it is a small factor! 

I took the liberty of looking up the word liability, just to check it wasn't hyperbole:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/liability

" A person or thing whose presence or behaviour is likely to put one at a disadvantage " for me, that is a perfect description of luiz. a perfect description. 

 

I am not 'passing off decision making as if it is a small factor', I am saying it is the side of his game that let's him down the most, as opposed to, let's say Terry, where it is his pace that let's him down the most.

All players suffer from poor decision making at some point, everyone makes mistakes after all, Luiz suffers more than Terry, but not nearly as much as the picture being painted on this thread, in my opinion. 

His physical attributes, as you mention yourself, are superior to the likes of JT & Cahill  though and there are instances where his pace would see him out of a situation in which Terry might struggle with. 

Is he a world class defender? No, not saying that. Is he a good defender? Yes, hence why he has 55 caps for Brazil. Is he better than JT in his prime? No. is he better than Cahill now? Yes, in my opinion he is. 

I do not really consider myself to be a "Luiz apologist" to be honest, although I am sure that was aimed at me. I just consider myself to be calling it as I see it without the hyperbole. 

I think he is a good, not great, defender. On his day subline, capable of something special, but never consitant enough to be ranked amonst the very best.

I think he brings a big character with him, and leadership which our dressing room has quite clearly been lacking since the likes of Lampard, drogba and Cech departed. I think he will be worth more than just what he delivers on the pitch.

I will "caveat" one again that he wasn't my first choice, but think he can bring a lot to our squad and overall we are stronger with him than without him. 

 

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18 hours ago, g3.7 said:

@mclovin83 @Remodez

 

@Dorset

thanks for the reply. 

I think you are putting the (pan)gloss on a difficult issue as you often do and I think that is valuable with all of the negativity that surrounds the boards at times (and of which I am a proponent on this topic). I always read your posts and that is why I'm sure in your heart you aren't pleased that stones has gone to city and not us. you were a persistent and fantastic advocate for his signing even when he lost his form. I also cannot recall you lamenting our sale of luiz and I know that you can't be pleased that his signing pushes aina and tomori further away from the first team. 

forget fees for one minute (although in fact it emerged luiz was sold for less than £40m, never mind the £50m that was reported at the time), I guess I would ask you if you a) would rather have stones or luiz in our squad and b) how highly do you value defensive reliability in a central defender?

 

     

a) Stones or Luiz in the squad? Well, I have to admit to being an admirer of John Stones ability on the ball from way back in his early days at Everton and I was indeed prepared to defend him against those critics who said he couldn’t, even throughout his worst of times under Martinez. Undoubtedly his best years are yet to come and I would have liked to have seen them on show here had we been able to broker a deal instead of becoming embroiled in an [oh-so-principled] Scouse-fest. But we couldn’t and with hindsight I’m now of the opinion that it was probably the right outcome for all parties, primarily for reasons other than those surrounding these two players. Let me explain - and in so doing you will see why I’m now happy to see Geezer back in our squad rather than the Barnsley boy. 

Stones arrival as JT’s eventual replacement would have signalled the end of the more naturally progressive Academy-fed succession claims of Andreas Christensen, Fikayo Tomori and Jake Clarke-Salter in one fell swoop, albeit an always faintly flickering flame in most of our hearts, but nonetheless one that is certainly not extinguished by the return of David Luiz. Of more concern, however, would have been the captaincy situation and the faith we might have had to place in Stones leadership qualities. Here the choice between him and the Brazilian is far more clearly defined and weighted heavily in the latter’s favour. Stones for Kompany long term, or Luiz for JT short term? Who has the better chance of carrying the captaincy off in this predominantly show-us-your-medals world? Of course, it may all turn out to be of little consequence in the great scheme of things, but, on what we know of both of them so far in their careers, I know which I’d prefer.

b) How highly do I value defensive reliability in a central defender? I’ve gone some way towards explaining my position already, but I’m also going to take the liberty of quoting from one of your earlier posts on this thread…

“what I will say is that in addition to all of the qualities davey mentioned (and barney, when I say charisma, amidst the obvious criticism, I mean it sincerely- he [David Luiz] has on pitch charisma. he gets the crowd and the team going and that massively helps. it is a rare quality and I couldn't name more than five players we've had in the last ten years or so who have it. he's one of them), I do not think zouma and christensen are a ready made partnership. stylistically they could work, but I don't want two youngsters playing there together. they'll need an experienced player alongside one or both of them.

I don't think cahill should be that player, because as much as I appreciate him, I've never felt he was a top player. he's a wholehearted, but ultimately limited footballer and when JT goes I can't see him being more than a squad player. So those young kids will need someone in his peak alongside them. luiz is 29, for me that is when defenders peak. maybe conte will get something out of him that others haven't. barzagli wasn't considered a truly top defender when conte first started working with him at a similar age so I suppose it is not impossible…”

… couldn’t have put it better myself, although I did make a stab at it in the previous paragraph. So in conclusion, I can only ask you to trust in David Luiz just a little more, as well as in Conte’s ability to mould him into what we all hope will be a formidable 3-5-2 shape. You never know, give it a season or three and we might both have what we’re looking for in the following first team line-up:- Courtois, Zouma, Christensen, Luiz (3) Azpi, Willian/Oscar, Chalobah/Kante, Hazard, Aina (5) Batshuayi, RLC/Abraham (2)
 

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3 hours ago, mclovin83 said:

I am not 'passing off decision making as if it is a small factor', I am saying it is the side of his game that let's him down the most, as opposed to, let's say Terry, where it is his pace that let's him down the most.

All players suffer from poor decision making at some point, everyone makes mistakes after all, Luiz suffers more than Terry, but not nearly as much as the picture being painted on this thread, in my opinion. 

His physical attributes, as you mention yourself, are superior to the likes of JT & Cahill  though and there are instances where his pace would see him out of a situation in which Terry might struggle with. 

Is he a world class defender? No, not saying that. Is he a good defender? Yes, hence why he has 55 caps for Brazil. Is he better than JT in his prime? No. is he better than Cahill now? Yes, in my opinion he is. 

I do not really consider myself to be a "Luiz apologist" to be honest, although I am sure that was aimed at me. I just consider myself to be calling it as I see it without the hyperbole. 

I think he is a good, not great, defender. On his day subline, capable of something special, but never consitant enough to be ranked amonst the very best.

I think he brings a big character with him, and leadership which our dressing room has quite clearly been lacking since the likes of Lampard, drogba and Cech departed. I think he will be worth more than just what he delivers on the pitch.

I will "caveat" one again that he wasn't my first choice, but think he can bring a lot to our squad and overall we are stronger with him than without him. 

 

Decision making isn't even his biggest fault! He is 3/10 in that skillset but on positional sense he is 1/10. He has all the defensive positional sense of Stevie Wonder on speed. And as for marking! He couldn't mark a man with a giant felt tip pen.

He can pass the ball, he is semi-decent in the air and I don't doubt his passion, but none of that masks the fact he can't defend with the required levels of focus, discipline, concentration or consistency.

 

Now that he is lumbered with him I hope Conte can do something with Roman's latest preferred choice, give him a go in midfield maybe? But he won't be able to make him defend properly. Unless he can give him a brain transplant.

Incidentally, on the good for the dressing thing, Mark Schwartzer on Talksport radio the other morning suggested that Luiz had fallen out with some members of the squad by the time he went. Not that it matters, but that arguably shows not everybody loved him. Probably the rest of the defence that had to play alongside him I should imagine.

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3 hours ago, Valerie said:

And still... for all his mistakes, I'm happy to have Luiz back. At least we have brought in a personality, a character, not some non-descript player of whom I - frankly - haven't heard of, someone who is going through the motions and collecting his paycheck.

 Val is it really all down to personality for you? Really ? Is that the measure? Do ability and talent and past performance come a distant second?

I appreciate many think the same way. I appreciate my view is in the minority. I don't care because he doesn't make our team better. That comes down to how good the selected players are on the pitch. And Luiz as a defender? There is still no one prepared to stick their hand up and say he is a top quality defender. No one will. Because he isn't. 

 

If Personality and charisma are the requirements. Get shot of Conte and bring in 'arry R. He makes everyone laugh.

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3 minutes ago, just said:

 Val is it really all down to personality for you? Really ? Is that the measure? Do ability and talent and past performance come a distant second?

I appreciate many think the same way. I appreciate my view is in the minority. I don't care because he doesn't make our team better. That comes down to how good the selected players are on the pitch. And Luiz as a defender? There is still no one prepared to stick their hand up and say he is a top quality defender. No one will. Because he isn't. 

 

If Personality and charisma are the requirements. Get shot of Conte and bring in 'arry R. He makes everyone laugh.

Regarding the top defender but I have a couple of points.

 

1) I think he's better then Cahill and Ivan by the way. 

2) I think 30 mill on him is better then 60 being talked about for koubali for me

3) and this is key ... Would you say that either gullit or hoddle ages 35ish where any better as defenders. If conte is looking to play 3, Luiz could turn out to be a huge success sweeping up and it seems that conte wants to go from front to back very quickly, terry is an excellent passer of the ball but Cahill is not great with the range , Luiz offers another that can release players quickly 

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31 minutes ago, barak81 said:

Regarding the top defender but I have a couple of points.

 

1) I think he's better then Cahill and Ivan by the way. 

2) I think 30 mill on him is better then 60 being talked about for koubali for me

3) and this is key ... Would you say that either gullit or hoddle ages 35ish where any better as defenders. If conte is looking to play 3, Luiz could turn out to be a huge success sweeping up and it seems that conte wants to go from front to back very quickly, terry is an excellent passer of the ball but Cahill is not great with the range , Luiz offers another that can release players quickly

Barak, Cahill is better. In terms of pure defending a lot better. Dont take my opinion, take the opinion of the opinion of the pros who have played at the top level. Are they just picking on Luiz or judging him on his performances? It his performances.

 

Cahill makes mistakes JT makes mistakes. All defenders make mistakes. It comes with job. But not with the alarming regularity Luiz does. Why? Because he is not a natural born defender.

 

Barak, a sweeper relies, more than anything else, on the ability to read the play and position himself accordingingly. It is brain over physicality. Do you really believe, with everything you have seen before, that that is a key strength of David Luiz? In terms of a football brain he isn't on the same planet as Hoddle and Guilt at any stage of their career and I think you know that.

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