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David Luiz back at Chelsea

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3 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Ok let's get it right just for you. Everyone knows the winners of the Scottish and French leagues before they have started. Playing in the French league is not hard at all and you can't judge a player for it.

PSG are clearly in a good moment but in the last 15 years PSG have won it 4 times and Lyon 7 times leaving 4 other champions, some of the best talent in the world comes from the French leagues, plenty of pacey strikers, we might have even recently bought one, last season teams like Bournemouth were beating us, now do you think it's easier to defend against lower table PL teams or Lyon, Monaco, Lille and Marseilles ? 

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2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Based on what?

If we used success in the Champions League and Europa League as a measuring stick both the French and Italian teams have done as well as each other over the last few years.

The Italian league has a romanticism about it from the 90s when it was such a good league but right now I would say it's probably on par with Ligue 1.

You can't really use cup competitions as measuring sticks because sometimes it's all about the luck of the draw.

Well at least we know now Luiz is a top defender because he has played in Ligue 1, got charisma and puts in lots of effort.

 

1 hour ago, DonAntonio said:

PSG are clearly in a good moment but in the last 15 years PSG have won it 4 times and Lyon 7 times leaving 4 other champions, some of the best talent in the world comes from the French leagues, plenty of pacey strikers, we might have even recently bought one, last season teams like Bournemouth were beating us, now do you think it's easier to defend against lower table PL teams or Lyon, Monaco, Lille and Marseilles ? 

Why you using lower league teams against higher placed ligue 1 teams? Look at the table now Angers, Lorient and Nancy. All on 0 points from 3 games.

There really is no point in talking about the last 15 years. PSG have the money, finances and will continue to win the league for many years. No teams can stop them. The past means nothing.

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5 hours ago, Xfaxtor said:

Wait, are people under the impression that Mustafi "bossed it" in Spain? Neither did he play anything in a world cup winning side. Mustafi started one game in the world cup and he didnt even get to finish that game. The other game he got significant minutes in was the only game Germany didnt win that world cup. He started one game in the group stages and then wasnt heard from. Lets not act like he was a lynchpin for Germany or try to big him up to being anything but average.

Number 17th in Whoscored's Primera Division player statistics of 2015/2016, only Godin (speaking of centre-backs) is ahead of him. From what i've seen he was Valencia's best player and Whoscored supports my view. If that's not bossing it in Spain then i don't know what is...
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/206/Tournaments/4/Seasons/5933/Stages/12647/PlayerStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016

17 minutes against Portugal, 45 minutes (second half) against Ghana, 70 minutes against Algeria during the knockout stages. He played his part and contributed to Germany's success 2014, imo. 

He's just 24 years of age, already played in Germany, Italy and Spain. Maybe he isn't as good as Luiz on the ball, but for me he's much more reliable as a defender, much less brain farts, at the end of the day that's what should count more, imo.

Edited by Essien19

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31 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

You can't really use cup competitions as measuring sticks because sometimes it's all about the luck of the draw.

Ignoring your cheap digs at Luiz what exactly do you base your opinion on that Serie A is a much better league than Ligue 1?

Or is it just that, an opinion?

Because you're dismissing success in competitions as luck of the draw.

In the last ten years, I would venture more signings from France have gone on to be a success in the Premier League than signings from Italy. 

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33 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

You can't really use cup competitions as measuring sticks because sometimes it's all about the luck of the draw.

Well at least we know now Luiz is a top defender because he has played in Ligue 1, got charisma and puts in lots of effort.

So you just blatantly ignore the caps he has won for Brazil, captained his national side...club side...won league titles, domestic cups, champions leagues, Europa leagues playing as a starting CB?

You are not very balanced in all of this are you? It's like you are trying very hard to ignore all of the things that Luiz has done well in his career just to hammer home the fact you don't rate him.

 

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11 minutes ago, Essien19 said:
Number 17th in Whoscored's Primera Division player statistics of 2015/2016, only Godin (speaking of centre-backs) is ahead of him. From what i've seen he was Valencia's best player and Whoscored supports my view. If that's not bossing it in Spain then i don't know what is...
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/206/Tournaments/4/Seasons/5933/Stages/12647/PlayerStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016

 

Should have kept Papy Djilobodji then, after all he was "bossing it" in Germany.

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1 hour ago, Chelsbear said:

So you just blatantly ignore the caps he has won for Brazil, captained his national side...club side...won league titles, domestic cups, champions leagues, Europa leagues playing as a starting CB?

You are not very balanced in all of this are you? It's like you are trying very hard to ignore all of the things that Luiz has done well in his career just to hammer home the fact you don't rate him.

 

Not ignoring them but playing for Brazil is totally different to a season in the premier league. Also winning the French league in a PSG team which was probably better than most in Europe in not a very competitive league doesn't make me go wow. Yes the competitions while playing for Chelsea but not really for PSG. It's like saying Scott Sinclair is a great player because his started scoring for Celtic.

 

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Ignoring your cheap digs at Luiz what exactly do you base your opinion on that Serie A is a much better league than Ligue 1?

Or is it just that, an opinion?

Because you're dismissing success in competitions as luck of the draw.

In the last ten years, I would venture more signings from France have gone on to be a success in the Premier League than signings from Italy. 

Again what does that prove. More signings from Italy might of been a success in Germany and Spain than from France. It's an opinion.

It also can be down to the players attitude, the club, the manager, homesick. Lots of variables to whether a player is successful in another league than just ability

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1 hour ago, Essien19 said:

Number 17th in Whoscored's Primera Division player statistics of 2015/2016, only Godin (speaking of centre-backs) is ahead of him. From what i've seen he was Valencia's best player and Whoscored supports my view. If that's not bossing it in Spain then i don't know what is...
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/206/Tournaments/4/Seasons/5933/Stages/12647/PlayerStatistics/Spain-La-Liga-2015-2016

17 minutes against Portugal, 45 minutes (second half) against Ghana, 70 minutes against Algeria during the knockout stages. He played his part and contributed to Germany's success 2014, imo. 

He's just 24 years of age, already played in Germany, Italy and Spain. Maybe he isn't as good as Luiz on the ball, but for me he's much more reliable as a defender, much less brain farts, at the end of the day that's what should count more, imo.

 

Didn't Baba have like the most tackles and interceptions in the Bundesliga before he came to Chelsea or something? Doesn't mean anything.

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5 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Ok let's get it right just for you. Everyone knows the winners of the Scottish and French leagues before they have started. Playing in the French league is not hard at all and you can't judge a player for it.

 

The league as a whole might be ok. But PSG absolutely dominate the league with the money and players they have. It's not big achievement playing in that league.

Bar the two back to back years with Chelsea and odd flutter by Arsenal, United totally dominated the PL for 20 years, yet they never at any point conceded less than 20 goals in a league season. It's a good achievement no matter what way its spun.

Also while Paris are overwhelming favroites it isn't a total given, they lost the league to Montpellier a few years back and 14/15 they made hard work of it, they may have walked it last season but that certainly hasn't been the case every single season.

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5 minutes ago, Argo said:

Bar the two back to back years with Chelsea and odd flutter by Arsenal, United totally dominated the PL for 20 years, yet they never at any point conceded less than 20 goals in a league season. It's a good achievement no matter what way its spun.

Also while Paris are overwhelming favroites it isn't a total given, they lost the league to Montpellier a few years back and 14/15 they made hard work of it, they may have walked it last season but that certainly hasn't been the case every single season.

Now comparing the premier league to ligue 1. That's where I am out, just can't be bothered.

Isnt the premier league record for conceding over a season 15 goals by Chelsea. That record compared to PSG in ligue 1 where they won the league by 31 points and scored over 100 goals is over 20 times the accomplishment at least.

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1 hour ago, Xfaxtor said:

Should have kept Papy Djilobodji then, after all he was "bossing it" in Germany.

Looked good in the Bundesliga, continued to look in the Premier League so far (tbf only 2 games). Chelsea should have played him more, the more expensive player isn't always the better player.

Chelsea sold Bertrand and he was once in the team of the season, point is Chelsea do make mistakes...
 

49 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Didn't Baba have like the most tackles and interceptions in the Bundesliga before he came to Chelsea or something? Doesn't mean anything.

But that's a start, coaches should be able to develop these kind of talents, still baffled how they can't do it here. Is the new boy in town really better?! I expect Baba to have a good season (if he stays injury free).

Edited by Essien19

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1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

Now comparing the premier league to ligue 1. That's where I am out, just can't be bothered.

Isnt the premier league record for conceding over a season 15 goals by Chelsea. That record compared to PSG in ligue 1 where they won the league by 31 points and scored over 100 goals is over 20 times the accomplishment at least.

1. Stop being dramatic, conceding just 19 goals is an achievement no matter how dominant the team is , that's the point I was trying to make. And we aren't talking about league two, French league is the 5th best in Europe, imo it's 4th with a strong case for being 3rd, but that's for another argument.

2 Lets not pretend the PL has always been full of decent teams in the top half, late 90s/early 00s there was two outstanding team's (United and Arsenal) a few decent teams (Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle), the rest of the league was wretched. Swap Arsenal and Chelsea and replace Newcastle with Spurs then you had the state of play in the second half of the 00s.

Then start of this decade United and City were the top dogs while Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool made up the level below.

Since about 2012 the playing field has been levelled a bit, no outstanding teams (which has bit this country on the arse in Europe) but there's about 8/9 decent team's now, the bottom half teams are still crap tho.

Let's not pretend the PL has always been this competitive, upto four years ago you could easily tell that the winner was between two teams, and that was at best.

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It's the competitive level as a whole not just at the top. That's what makes the premiership the most competitive league in the world. It doesn't have the best overall teams though.

Im not getting into a debate about the 90s and how competitive the league was, it's way of topic.

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1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

It's the competitive level as a whole not just at the top. That's what makes the premiership the most competitive league in the world. It doesn't have the best overall teams though.

Im not getting into a debate about the 90s and how competitive the league was, it's way of topic.

It's not off topic it was relevant to what I was trying to say. United dominated an overall poor league yet never had the impressive defensive stats PSG had last season.

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4 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's not off topic it was relevant to what I was trying to say. United dominated an overall poor league yet never had the impressive defensive stats PSG had last season.

A premier league at its weakest is still stronger than a French League at its strongest. There's no comparison ever so it's pointless.

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11 hours ago, Chelsbear said:

So you just blatantly ignore the caps he has won for Brazil, captained his national side...club side...won league titles, domestic cups, champions leagues, Europa leagues playing as a starting CB?

He did also captain a Brazil side which lost a World Cup semi 7-1 at home.

Being part of successful teams doesn't necessarily make him a great player. Bosingwa and Kalou won CL and Premier League titles as well.

You have to ask why PSG were so happy to sell him at a loss just two years after signing him when it left them short of defenders with no time to sign a replacement

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28 minutes ago, Englishman said:

He did also captain a Brazil side which lost a World Cup semi 7-1 at home.

Being part of successful teams doesn't necessarily make him a great player. Bosingwa and Kalou won CL and Premier League titles as well.

You have to ask why PSG were so happy to sell him at a loss just two years after signing him when it left them short of defenders with no time to sign a replacement

1 game doesn't make a bad player, name me one Brazilian who played well that day? 

Bossingwa and Kalou weren't starting most games during those runs that's the difference, no one said Luiz was a great player in any case unless I have missed that? He's clearly not as bad as people are making out in here

Van Persie made a mug out of Terry at the Bridge a few years back when we got battered but he isn't a bad player, it happens. 

By all accounts Luiz was the one who forced the move through as soon as he heard we were interested. PSG have a new manager who maybe wants a new start

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6 minutes ago, Chelsbear said:

1 game doesn't make a bad player, name me one Brazilian who played well that day? 

Bossingwa and Kalou weren't starting most games during those runs that's the difference, no one said Luiz was a great player in any case unless I have missed that? He's clearly not as bad as people are making out in here

Van Persie made a mug out of Terry at the Bridge a few years back when we got battered but he isn't a bad player, it happens. 

By all accounts Luiz was the one who forced the move through as soon as he heard we were interested. PSG have a new manager who maybe wants a new start

Surely your argument goes both ways. If he gets credit for winning caps and being in teams that have won things (none of which necessarily makes him a top defender), you can't ignore a 7-1 thrashing on the biggest stage of all?

Bosingwa did play in the CL final and the semi against Barca (at centre half!). Roque Junior won a World Cup final with Brazil. Djimi Traore won a CL final with Liverpool. And so on and so forth.

Thing is, JT's disasters are rare and that match was five years ago. Luiz was made a mug of against Monaco two weeks ago. He might not be as bad as some are making out, but he's also not as good as some are trying to make out. He's simply not a top defender, he's not a significant upgrade on what we have already and given he'll turn 30 next year, it's not as if he's likely to improve or one for the future. A team chasing PL and CL success should be looking for better. I still can't make sense of this signing.

I think it's revealing that a shrewd manager like Emery was happy to let Luiz go even though it was at short notice and left him short of defenders.

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Quote

With John Terry and Branislav Ivanovic suspended Chelsea needed Luiz more than ever – but first he needed to pass Palmer’s fitness test.

“I said to him,” Luiz recalls in hushed tones. “ ‘You know how I worked hard in my life to be here? You know when I left my family I was 14-years-old? You know tomorrow there are 200 million Brazilians in the world and just one can be on the pitch? You know what it is for my life to be here? Then it’s not for you to say something, to say I cannot play tomorrow. I will do the test but even if I fail you go to [the then manager Roberto] Di Matteo and say to him that I play tomorrow.’

“He said ‘no’. I said: ‘You go there and you say to him, if not, I kill you. And tomorrow we will be champions of Europe, no problem. Trust me.’

 

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Brazil vs germany was "just one bad game". Luiz vs Barcelona where he was found out multiple times and made to look like a semi-pro player was "just one or 2 bad games". Luiz vs monaco was "just one bad game". How many "just one bad game" did luiz have for chelsea.

When you sum up the "just one bad games" that Luiz has had over the course of his career as a "defender" they make up a massive chunk. You cant compare luiz's "just one bad game" to Rvp man-handling JT while AVB was playing a highline with a defender who never would have put in the word "pacy" as an attribute. 

And thats the point people are trying to make. Those "just one bad game" are too frequent to be taken lightly especially in PL where 3 points can mean a 4th place or a 7th place finish.

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Terry and Cahill had multiple bad games last season, I dont get why tthe majority are focusing solely on the bad and not the good.

Luis will make some rash decisions which will cost the odd goal or even the odd point or two throughout a season.

But what he adds to a team more than makes up for that in terms of goals and points. Having a player like Luiz at the back allows teams to play on the front foot and dominate games.

Pique, Pepe and Ramos probably all have more rash moments and poor games over a season than Luiz, yet they are still classed as great defenders because of what they add to the team despite that.

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