Next Chelsea Manager

[Barrettinator]

8 minutes ago, benjsross said:

Salah was sh*te for us. Musonda has been sh*te absolutely everywhere he has played. 

RLC and Chalobah weren't good enough to get a lot of minutes at a top 4 club. They needed more minutes at another top club. Drinkwater didn't get any minutes here.

I agree that they could have been rotated in but both of them needed to be starting regularly. They weren't going to be doing that ahead of fabregas Kante and bakayoko (who didn't sound like a sh*t purchase last summer)

When are we going to realise that young players need a run of games to develop? You can't just throw a young player in when you're losing and then when he doesn't perforce complain that heisn't good eough. He's probably even scared to take risks because he knows if it goes wrong, his chances at playing more matches will reduce. Talent is clearly not the problem. They have bags of talent and then some. Why do other top clubs seem to be able to bring them through? Maybe because they actually give these players a proper chance? RLC not good enough to get minutes for us but Bakayoko is? Guess who's going to the World Cup between both those players? The one was apparently not good enough to get a lot of minutes for us. 

We currently have a generation of players who are among the most talented crop in Europe if not THE most talented. What's the point of spending millions on the academy if we're not ready to take risks on the talent that comes through?

[Barrettinator]

5 minutes ago, mwblue10 said:

You’re combining the summer of 2013 with the January 2014, summer 2014, and January 2015 windows there.

My mistake. But Salah's loans, if you remember correctly, were as good as him being sold off. We had zero plans for him despite only having him in the side for about 6 months, if I'm not mistaken. A 21 year old in a new country expected to either rip up the league or get lost. Jose didn't give De Bruyne more than 6 months either and Lukaku played what? 1 game? The Super Cup? Oh well, no point remembering all of those now. Sabotaged ourselves with bad decision upon bad decision. I just hope we don't repeat the same thing.

[the special one]

14 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

When are we going to realise that young players need a run of games to develop?

Honestly couldn't care less - I'd hope we have a team capable of competing for top 4 next season, not pandering to the needs of young players (and for me that includes Christensen). Success at youth level rarely evolves into success at senior level. Must admit I feel sorry for Arsenal fans having to put up with Iwobi's inconsistency/lack of quality for example, I don't see why RLC/Musonda would be any different tbh

Edited May 22, 2018 by the special one

[Barrettinator]

1 minute ago, the special one said:

Honestly couldn't care less - I'd hope we have a team capable of competing for top 4 next season, not pandering to the needs of young players (and for me that includes Christensen). Success at youth level rarely translates into success at senior level. Must admit I feel sorry for Arsenal fans having to put up with Iwobi's inconsistency/lack of quality for example, I don't see why RLC would be any different tbh

Yet somehow teams like Barca, Bayern and even Real manage to both pander to young players and win a lot more than us and remain consistently elite. It's almost like they have a proper plan and structure. Fergie won 13 PL titles and still gave young players loads of chances in the midst of it all. It's possible to do both, you know. Especially when the players are so bloody talented. There's nothing Bakayoko has done for us this season that RLC couldn't have at the very least matched. FWIW, nobody's talking about the trophies they've won at youth level. I'm speaking strictly on their play and their talent. 

And as for Arsenal, they've had serious problems top to bottom. Iwobi is clearly a very solid player. He's not Messi so don't expect him to grab the game and run with it when the rest of his teammates are playing like utter toss. Even our own Hazard struggles to shine a lot of times when the rest of the team's sh*t.

[Gol15]

Just now, Barrettinator said:

Yet somehow teams like Barca, Bayern and even Real manage to both pander to young players and win a lot more than us and remain consistently elite. It's almost like they have a proper plan and structure. Fergie won 13 PL titles and still gave young players loads of chances in the midst of it all. It's possible to do both, you know. Especially when the players are so bloody talented. There's nothing Bakayoko has done for us this season that RLC couldn't have at the very least matched. FWIW, nobody's talking about the trophies they've won at youth level. I'm speaking strictly on their play and their talent. 

And as for Arsenal, they've had serious problems top to bottom. Iwobi is clearly a very solid player. He's not Messi so don't expect him to grab the game and run with it when the rest of his teammates are playing like utter toss. Even our own Hazard struggles to shine a lot of times when the rest of the team's sh*t.

It would be great to develop our youth since they have been dominating in the last 5-6 years.
But Barcelona had 1 good generation of young players that happen to be the best Spanish team ever, Bayern buys in Germany from everyone even from their biggest rivals and lastly United had also basically 1 good generation but they were spending money all the time even before Roman came they got Rio Ferdinand for £30m, same year as Ronaldo joined Real Madrid for the same price...
Real Madrid won because they spent tons of money most of the time as well..

[the special one]

2 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

Yet somehow teams like Barca, Bayern and even Real manage to both pander to young players and win a lot more than us and remain consistently elite.

The difference is Barca, Bayern and Real dominate their respective leagues and have competitive B/C teams to sort the wheat from the chaff. I think it's different for us, the league is just too competitive with much finer margins for error, i.e. Christensen's mistakes may have ultimately cost us a place in the CL this season.

[Barrettinator]

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It would be great to develop our youth since they have been dominating in the last 5-6 years.
But Barcelona had 1 good generation of young players that happen to be the best Spanish team ever, Bayern buys in Germany from everyone even from their biggest rivals and lastly United had also basically 1 good generation but they were spending money all the time even before Roman came they got Rio Ferdinand for £30m, same year as Ronaldo joined Real Madrid for the same price...
Real Madrid won because they spent tons of money most of the time as well..

Maybe if we tried to give this generation of our players a chance, we'd find our own golden generation of first team players to carry us for a decade. That's the whole point. And I'm not saying they didn't spend either. But they would have spent a lot more if they didn't have that backbone of homegrown players to build on.

8 minutes ago, the special one said:

The difference is Barca, Bayern and Real dominate their respective leagues and have competitive B/C teams to sort the wheat from the chaff. I think it's different for us, the league is just too competitive with much finer margins for error, i.e. Christensen's mistakes may have ultimately cost us a place in the CL this season.

It is extremely unfair to blame Christensen for that especially since we still had a lot of chances to make the CL well after any of his mistakes as well as the fact that other players made mistakes at other times too. In fact, it's absurd to put that blame squarely on Christensen.

[Nibs]

19 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

Yet somehow teams like Barca, Bayern and even Real manage to both pander to young players and win a lot more than us and remain consistently elite. It's almost like they have a proper plan and structure. Fergie won 13 PL titles and still gave young players loads of chances in the midst of it all. It's possible to do both, you know. Especially when the players are so bloody talented. There's nothing Bakayoko has done for us this season that RLC couldn't have at the very least matched. FWIW, nobody's talking about the trophies they've won at youth level. I'm speaking strictly on their play and their talent. 

And as for Arsenal, they've had serious problems top to bottom. Iwobi is clearly a very solid player. He's not Messi so don't expect him to grab the game and run with it when the rest of his teammates are playing like utter toss. Even our own Hazard struggles to shine a lot of times when the rest of the team's sh*t.

Can't argue with that.

I am sick & tired of hearing cycnical pundits and journo's say " so Chelsea's youth team have won another Youth Cup, League, Champios League......etc, great but don't expect any of those players to get anywhere near Chelsea's first team". And of course, on the whole, they've been right. How good would it be to make them eat their words so in a season or two, we have a first team littered with academy players. We have to buck this trend of loan, loan, loan..............sell. Sure, up to now, maybe the majority haven't been good enough to make it to the very top, but surely it's time we give a few of these a go, rather than waste our time and money on signing average players like Drinkwater, Bakayok and Zappercosta. 

That old cliche of if they're good enough they're old enough - let's see it happen.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Nibs

[the special one]

7 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

Maybe if we tried to give this generation of our players a chance, we'd find our own golden generation of first team players to carry us for a decade. That's the whole point. And I'm not saying they didn't spend either. But they would have spent a lot more if they didn't have that backbone of homegrown players to build on.

Or maybe we'll have serious problems top to bottom because we integrate youth, just like Arsenal, or just like United did with the likes of Brown/Evans/Fletcher etc

7 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

It is extremely unfair to blame Christensen for that especially since we still had a lot of chances to make the CL well after any of his mistakes as well as the fact that other players made mistakes at other times too. In fact, it's absurd to put that blame squarely on Christensen.

I'm not exclusively blaming Christensen, I just don't deny it hasn't been a contributing factor.

Edited May 22, 2018 by the special one

[Barrettinator]

2 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Can't argue with that.

I am sick & tired of hearing cycnical pundits and journo's say " so Chelsea's youth team have won another Youth Cup, League, Champios League......etc, great but don't expect any of those players to get anywhere near Chelsea's first team". And of course, on the whole, they've been right. How good would it be to make them eat their words so in a season or two, we have a first team littered with academy players. We have to buck this trend of loan, loan, loan..............sell. Sure, up to now, maybe the majority haven't been good enough to make it to the very top, but surely it's time we give a few of these a go, rather than waste our time and money on signing average players like Drinkwater, Bakayok and Zappercosta. 

That old cliche of if they're good enough they're old enough - let's see it happen.

What better time to bring them in than now when we're trying to build a stadium and being more cautious about how much we spend? It's coinciding with a time when we've never had better players in the academy than we do at the moment. The stars are aligned. We need to do it now.

[Barrettinator]

2 minutes ago, the special one said:

Or maybe we'll have serious problems top to bottom because we integrate youth, just like Arsenal.

I'm not exclusively blaming Christensen, I just don't deny it hasn't been a contributing factor.

Integrating youth wasn't the problem at Arsenal. They've had several really good PL quality players out of that process. Wenger's tactics were the problem. Fabregas was a product of Wenger's youth integration, wasn't he?

[the special one]

28 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

Integrating youth wasn't the problem at Arsenal. They've had several really good PL quality players out of that process. Wenger's tactics were the problem. Fabregas was a product of Wenger's youth integration, wasn't he?

For me it's exactly the problem at Arsenal, when you play the likes of Iwobi you have to accept a margin for error/inconsistency - add one or two more youth products (in Arsenal's case, Wilshere/Gibbs/Bellerin/Holding/Coquelin) and the team starts to underperform. Don't get me wrong I'm not against giving Mount/CHO/Ampadu a chance next season but if we trust too many I can see it all going pear shaped next season, young players simply don't have the quality/experience to perform consistently.

Edited May 22, 2018 by the special one

[bisright1]

55 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

When are we going to realise that young players need a run of games to develop? You can't just throw a young player in when you're losing and then when he doesn't perforce complain that heisn't good eough. He's probably even scared to take risks because he knows if it goes wrong, his chances at playing more matches will reduce. Talent is clearly not the problem. They have bags of talent and then some. Why do other top clubs seem to be able to bring them through? Maybe because they actually give these players a proper chance? RLC not good enough to get minutes for us but Bakayoko is? Guess who's going to the World Cup between both those players? The one was apparently not good enough to get a lot of minutes for us. 

We currently have a generation of players who are among the most talented crop in Europe if not THE most talented. What's the point of spending millions on the academy if we're not ready to take risks on the talent that comes through?

We won the youth cup 5 years in a row. The first win had Christensen, RLC and Dasilva in the team, 3 players I expect to get in the team in the near future (first one tick, last one hopefully). That is a good return. We have another 4 youth cup wins to look forward to still with some great talent.

Our strategy is to get these players playing regular senior football, it's working. Some players though (musonda) are so unsuited for senior football it just doesn't work. If they can get those games at a club like palace that's great,if they can't get those games at betis or Celtic, then they are obviously sh*te

Edited May 22, 2018 by benjsross

[Ernie_blue]

16 minutes ago, the special one said:

For me it's exactly the problem at Arsenal, when you play the likes of Iwobi you have to accept a margin for error/inconsistency - add one or two more youth products and the team starts to underperform. Don't get me wrong I'm not against giving Mount a chance next season but if we trust too many I can see it all going pear shaped next season, young players simply don't have the quality/experience to perform consistently.

It's not the problem at Arsenal, the problem has been Wenger for a long time. Can't set up a team to defend, won't sign a new defender, won't sign a midfielder, too stubborn, has no plan b. Sounds familiar to another manager but he just moans about all his transfers.

[the special one]

17 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

It's not the problem at Arsenal, the problem has been Wenger for a long time. Can't set up a team to defend, won't sign a new defender, won't sign a midfielder, too stubborn, has no plan b. Sounds familiar to another manager but he just moans about all his transfers.

Can't set up a team to defend, won't sign a new defender, won't sign a midfielder etc

Because.... he gave youth an opportunity to play at a level that was well below the standard necessary to compete at the highest level.

Edited May 22, 2018 by the special one

[Barrettinator]

17 minutes ago, benjsross said:

We won the youth cup 5 years in a row. The first win had Christensen, RLC and Dasilva in the team, 3 players I expect to get in the team in the near future (first one tick, last one hopefully). That is a good return. We have another 4 youth cup wins to look forward to still with some great talent.

Our strategy is to get these players playing regular senior football, it's working. Some players though (musonda) are so unsuited for senior football it just doesn't work. If they can get those games at a club like palace that's great,if they can't get those games at betis or Celtic, then they are obviously sh*te

Da Silva is never getting in the team. Pains my heart to say it but that's the reality. He has never even been given the meager minutes RLC and Christensen used to get. Hudson-Odoi has gotten more minutes than Da Silva and so has Ampadu. If I were RLC, if Chelsea don't bring me into the team next season, I'm asking to be sold and moving on from Chelsea for good. Bertrand was faithful for a long time and still didn't get the proper chance. No point wasting your career on Chelsea's indecisiveness.

[Ernie_blue]

1 minute ago, the special one said:

Can't set up a team to defend, won't sign a new defender, won't sign a midfielder etc

Because.... he gives youth an opportunity to play at a level that is well below the standard necessary to compete at the highest level.

So you are seriously saying all Arsenal's problems are because Iwobi has been playing? 

[Barrettinator]

2 minutes ago, the special one said:

Can't set up a team to defend, won't sign a new defender, won't sign a midfielder etc

Because.... he gives youth an opportunity to play at a level that is well below the standard necessary to compete at the highest level.

Completely disagree. Wenger has signed some truly horrendous defenders who weren't young at all. Senderous, Djourou, Silva and co. Absolute garbage. And they weren't kids. Sometimes he replaces his proven talent with OBVIOUSLY rubbish young players as well. Imagine replacing RVP with Yaya Sanogo. The problem was always Wenger tbqh.

[Ernie_blue]

2 minutes ago, Barrettinator said:

Completely disagree. Wenger has signed some truly horrendous defenders who weren't young at all. Senderous, Djourou, Silva and co. Absolute garbage. And they weren't kids. Sometimes he replaces his proven talent with OBVIOUSLY rubbish young players as well. Imagine replacing RVP with Yaya Sanogo. The problem was always Wenger tbqh.

Arsenal have had the same problem for 10 years or more now, it's mostly all been about Wenger. He wouldn't sign a goalkeeper until Cech was literally given to him. When was the last time we seen Arsenal play consistently well at the back, Mufasi has looked awful at Arsenal, this is due to Wenger not being able to set up a defence. How long have Arsenal needed a top defender and a midfielder, Wenger won't sign a midfielder because all the pundits tell him Arsenal need one, the blokes too stubborn. He has held back Arsenal for many years which has been glossed over with top 4 finishes and FA Cup wins. The worst thing which could ever happen was him leaving.

Playing a few youth players here and there has been the least of their problems. 

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, Barrettinator said:

Maybe if we tried to give this generation of our players a chance, we'd find our own golden generation of first team players to carry us for a decade. That's the whole point. And I'm not saying they didn't spend either. But they would have spent a lot more if they didn't have that backbone of homegrown players to build on.

I think we should really consider doing it even if we fail to win much in the next season. I'm not saying that we shouldn't spend money since we want to keep our top players but honestly we can give a chance to 2-3 youngsters and create a new generation that we can count on for years to come.

[the special one]

28 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

So you are seriously saying all Arsenal's problems are because Iwobi has been playing? 

No I'm not saying all Arsenal's problems are because of Iwobi - I just used him as an example. I just haven't seen anything from RLC to suggest he's any better than Iwobi is my point.

17 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Arsenal have had the same problem for 10 years or more now, it's mostly all been about Wenger. He wouldn't sign a goalkeeper until Cech was literally given to him. When was the last time we seen Arsenal play consistently well at the back, Mufasi has looked awful at Arsenal, this is due to Wenger not being able to set up a defence. How long have Arsenal needed a top defender and a midfielder, Wenger won't sign a midfielder because all the pundits tell him Arsenal need one, the blokes too stubborn. He has held back Arsenal for many years which has been glossed over with top 4 finishes and FA Cup wins. The worst thing which could ever happen was him leaving.

Playing a few youth players here and there has been the least of their problems. 

He wouldn't sign a goalkeeper because he already had Szczesny, a young player. Mustafi has looked awful but he plays alongside Rob Holding and Bellerin, both young players. He didn't sign a defensive midfielder because he had Coquelin/Wilshere/Ramsey, all Arsenal youth products.

I'd say Wenger's stubborness to play youth were a major contributing factor to Arsenal's problems, imho

Edited May 22, 2018 by the special one

[Ernie_blue]

18 minutes ago, the special one said:

No I'm not saying all Arsenal's problems are because of Iwobi - I just used him as an example. I just haven't seen anything from RLC to suggest he's any better than Iwobi is my point.

He wouldn't sign a goalkeeper because he already had Szczesny, a young player. Mustafi has looked awful but he plays alongside Rob Holding and Bellerin, both young players. He didn't sign a defensive midfielder because he had Coquelin/Wilshere/Ramsey, all Arsenal youth products.

I'd say Wenger's stubborness to play youth were a major contributing factor to Arsenal's problems, imho

Like you say it was Wenger, Arsenal had sh*t keepers year after year when Lehmann left, it's not down to whether the players was young or not but Wenger' s stubbornness to sign a player in a position they needed which everybody could see but Wenger would never admit he was wrong.

Holding is not a first team regular, Bellerin is a very good player. Wilshere and Ramsey are top midfielders, Wilshere has only made a large number of appearances this season for a long time. I would have all 3 in my squad and I don't think you would find many better attacking midfielders than Ramsey.

Wenger did end up signing 2 DMs in Xhaka and Elneny, both been fails and they go back to square one needing a DM. 

Wenger has been the biggest issue at Arsenal and held the club back for years, his made the club too nice and that's why players like Ozil sign new contracts.

If you really believe the number 1 reason Arsenal have failed is because of a few youth players then you go with that. 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Ernie_blue

[Argo]

15 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

 

Have they improved? I rate VVD highly but they conceded a lot of goals against Roma, home and away. Those two late away goals they conceded were very telling. They also slipped down the table to fourth, and it wasn't because of a lack of goals.

 

Edit: Regarding Dortmund, his achievements there were fantastic, but they're largely playing against weak sides most weeks, so those stats need to be taken in that context.

They are still conceding silly goals at times but no where near to the level they were before VVD came in. As for his Dortmund side, it's still impressive to concede about mid 20's in 34 games, Tuchell and Bozs couldn't touch those numbers.

15 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

Also, what great defenders did Rodgers have, out of interest?

They aren't bonafide top defenders but Agger and Skrtel looked a lot better under Benitez and Dalglish than they did once Brendan got hold of them. When i watch his sides there just seems something very very wrong with the way his teams defend from a system perspective, the defenders don't tend to know what eachother are even doing and that stems solely from the training ground. There's only so much even the best will be able to get by solely on instinct hence my comments re even Maldini struggling in his system.

Also his Celtic humiliations in the CL are very damming and exposes his flaws with defending, ofcourse Celtic can't be expected to beat PSG and Barca but many worse teams than them somewhat compete to a respectable level at least.

[Zeta]

Wenger bought into his own hype after his invincibles squad and thought he could take any young player and turn them into a great player, hence his buying of rubbish like Jenkinson, Chambers, etc... and them doing nothing.

[Bluesince66]

I came on here to read something about our possible new manager, I must have got the wrong thread,this one is about other managers and youth.