Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[Scott Harris]

2 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

I agree with that assessment Scott but my main problem is that every time Jorginho doesn’t play the team looks clueless in the middle of the park. You see players passing the ball to the defence constantly and not knowing what to do. If we were playing the way we played under conte (more direct) I could see how we could work without Jorginho. However, I just don’t see us being able to play possession football without Jorginho. It’s either we focus on our defence and midfield to better protect him or we scrap what has been two years of a transition to possession football. And that didn’t work quite well when we did it with Mourinho coming back the second time despite winning a couple of trophies in the short term. 

To be perfectly honest, I have never been a great fan of possession based football, especially in the Premier League. Quick and effective attacking football has always been the Premier League's best way forward.

Also, since we have switched to this possession based football team, we haven't really bought in the players to play that way, it's only really Jorginho that plays that way. So why bother with sticking with this type of game when the majority of the squad is more suited to different play styles?

[Gentian]

17 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

If YOU'RE going to call me an idiot, then make sure you spell properly first.

As for Kante, he was really sh*t today too, I said enough about him in the match thread. He couldn't pass all day and his tackling was terrible. The difference between Kante and Jorginho is that Kante isn't in the position to be a shield for our defence. He's too often involved up the field and roaming to be asked to play that role. 

Jorginho is a luxury player for me. He can play one position and only one way. If he is ever out of his comfort zone, he struggles, which also puts the whole team in trouble. I don't think it's a good idea to build a team around that. I just don't see how we will ever compete for Premier League titles when this issue keeps cropping up.

If Kante is asked to play that way than Lampard deserves to be fired immediately. I think that you have a dislike of Jorginho and often like today you do not use rationality and an unbiased view to analyse his game.  

[big blue]

Okay performance, but looked tired second half, i thought Kante was the worse out of the 2 today, very sloppy in possession. 

Midfield didnt really work today though, Havertz lost the ball way more than usual, which meant we really struggled to get the ball into our attackers second half.

Probably shouldve switched to 433 earlier. 

[Gentian]

52 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Really nice insight, Pirlo had also Ambrosini and his bulldog type was Gattuso as well in the past prior to Marchisio and Vidal.

I have said it multiple times but even if we could put the best DMs, e.g. Casemiro and Fernandinho, our defense with Kepa and Christensen would still concede goals. Now the fact that Pep used Fernandinho as a CB and that Klopp used Fabinho as a CB only shows that it's more vital to have a proper defender that can actually defend and that having a DM doesn't automatically mean that your defense won't suffer because we have seen just today that the Saints could skip the whole midfield and score a goal... Jorginho does his role regardless of opposition.

Didn't want to go into too deep with the Pirlo comparison however they do have a similar game approach and they have similar characteristics. For instance during the 2006 world cup win sometimes Italy would play 3 in the midfield with Pirlo and Daniele De Rossi along with Gattuso doing most of the ball winning in midfield. Often though they played two in midfield Pirlo alongside Gattuso or De Rossi. However, Italy had that luxury because at the back they had Nesta Cannavaro Buffon.

Furthermore, the last Italy game against Holland had a similar structure to the 2006 winning italy team with Verrati and Barella supporting Jorginho in a midfield 3. Chiellini and Bonnuci at the back. 

Compare that to us today with Zuma Christensen and Kepa with Kante roaming around now thats a huge difference and am honestly often suprised how many interceptions Jorginho gets in a match. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Gentian
grammar

[Gol15]

13 minutes ago, Gentian said:

Didn't want to go into too deep with the Pirlo comparison however they do have a similar game approach and they have similar characteristics. For instance during the 2006 world cup win sometimes Italy would play 3 in the midfield with Pirlo and Daniele De Rossi along with Gattuso doing most of the ball winning in midfield. Often though they played two in midfield Pirlo alongside Gattuso or De Rossi. However, Italy had that luxury because at the back they had Nesta Cannavaro Buffon.

Furthermore, the last Italy game against Holland had a similar structure to the 2006 winning italy team with Verrati and Barella supporting Jorginho in a midfield 3. Chiellini and Bonnuci at the back. 

Compare that to us today with Zuma Christensen and Kepa with Kante roaming around now thats a huge difference and am honestly often suprised how many interceptions Jorginho gets in a match. 

Really good insights, thanks for taking the time to go a bit deeper I enjoyed reading.

[Scott Harris]

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I see no relation to us conceding goals and Jorginho. Hasn't he been playing his role for 2 seasons and going strong in his 3rd for the club?

You can't blame him for our bad defending, he has actually had the most interceptions made out of all midfielders that we have, he can't do the job of the CB so he isn't like Fabinho or Fernandinho that can play there if needed but that's not a proper complaint, you should be ranting in other threads then.

If you think that buying Rice is going to magically turn our defenders like Christensen and our keeper Kepa into better players you are in for a huge disappointment my friend, huge... You can put Casemiro today instead of Jorginho and we score 1 goal less but still concede 3. 

He bloody well should have the most interceptions out of our midfielders seeing as he is playing the deepest. I'm also not saying bringing in a DM would stop us leaking goals either, the defenders have their own issues in that area, but that protection will help and cut out how easy it is for teams to take the control away from us.

These days, I even get worried when we lose the ball in attacking areas, because I know that it's basically just one pass through the midfield and the opposition are overloading and running at our defence. The opposition can see it, they take advantage of it, and we have done nothing to stop it. We just persist and hope we aren't playing a high pressing team, something that doesn't happen much anymore because so many teams have caught on and know our weaknesses.

So often I see people say Jorginho dictates the tempo of our game, but if this was such a positive thing, why is it that we so often lose control of a game? Today wasn't a one off with Jorginho on the pitch, we see it a lot. Yes, there are games where his tempo works, but because of how often I have seen it not work, I don't see why we should build our who game around it. I don't think we will compete for the league or Champions League playing this way. Even if the defenders weren't making so many stupid errors every game.

[Scott Harris]

24 minutes ago, Gentian said:

Didn't want to go into too deep with the Pirlo comparison however they do have a similar game approach and they have similar characteristics. For instance during the 2006 world cup win sometimes Italy would play 3 in the midfield with Pirlo and Daniele De Rossi along with Gattuso doing most of the ball winning in midfield. Often though they played two in midfield Pirlo alongside Gattuso or De Rossi. However, Italy had that luxury because at the back they had Nesta Cannavaro Buffon.

Furthermore, the last Italy game against Holland had a similar structure to the 2006 winning italy team with Verrati and Barella supporting Jorginho in a midfield 3. Chiellini and Bonnuci at the back. 

Compare that to us today with Zuma Christensen and Kepa with Kante roaming around now thats a huge difference and am honestly often suprised how many interceptions Jorginho gets in a match. 

Well, that's just it isn't it? we don't have that luxury, so why do we persist with it? If we don't have the players around to help with a luxury player like Jorginho, then Jorginho simply doesn't fit and we shouldn't be trying to play a style of football centred around his game.

[Gentian]

5 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Well, that's just it isn't it? we don't have that luxury, so why do we persist with it? If we don't have the players around to help with a luxury player like Jorginho, then Jorginho simply doesn't fit and we shouldn't be trying to play a style of football centred around his game.

Hehe I like your persistance. We do have the players to play that way though its just mismanagement in my opinion. For instance Kante was world class when Conte was in charge because he knew exactly his role and what to do. We can play in a midfield 3 when we want to protect the score or be more compact with Havertz Jorginho Kante. Midfield two Jorginho Kovacic or Kante however, Kante needs to be extremely disciplined and close to Jorginho. Hence when Jorginho plays with Kovacic in a midfield two they seem to work better because Kovacic stays closer to Jorginho therefore perform better in protecting the defense. Lampard at the moment wants to win the ball up high with Mount and Kante, the risk though is that Jorginho is left alone and we concede in quick counter attacks or by a defensive mistake.

Lampard has huge responsibility in the way players are performing good or bad in my opinion because our players are good enough to challenge for the title. Its not a Lampard thread but I believe he is missing an experienced assistant> Jody Morris is good but far too inexperienced. 

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

He bloody well should have the most interceptions out of our midfielders seeing as he is playing the deepest. I'm also not saying bringing in a DM would stop us leaking goals either, the defenders have their own issues in that area, but that protection will help and cut out how easy it is for teams to take the control away from us.

These days, I even get worried when we lose the ball in attacking areas, because I know that it's basically just one pass through the midfield and the opposition are overloading and running at our defence. The opposition can see it, they take advantage of it, and we have done nothing to stop it. We just persist and hope we aren't playing a high pressing team, something that doesn't happen much anymore because so many teams have caught on and know our weaknesses.

So often I see people say Jorginho dictates the tempo of our game, but if this was such a positive thing, why is it that we so often lose control of a game? Today wasn't a one off with Jorginho on the pitch, we see it a lot. Yes, there are games where his tempo works, but because of how often I have seen it not work, I don't see why we should build our who game around it. I don't think we will compete for the league or Champions League playing this way. Even if the defenders weren't making so many stupid errors every game.

Lampard wants to play with 1 deeper player and with 2 more offensive players that would press, that can be done with Mason and Kai as they can press but is that style is actually viable in the first place? No other top team plays with 2 offensive midfielders and the teams that do offer their central midfielders a more free role play with the 3 at the back. I do want to see that style full implemented as soon as possible, just so see if it actually works for the long run. Last season we saw a glimpse of something like that with Barkley and Mount.

This is not us playing around Jorginho anymore, yes we did build our structure of play around Jorginho with Sarri but Lampard is more direct than Sarri, this is the style which requires a good functioning backline for 90 minutes.

You can put any lone DM you want, the opposition will get a breakthrough as soon as they skip our high-press. Your best option is to commit a fast foul before they do it but do that a few times and your DM will have to play the rest of the game with a yellow card which makes him very limited in how much he can actually get stuck in when it comes to duels and so on.

If we are going to compete for the league or CL it will be because of our attacking players, our deep-midfield is not going to solve the wind blowing through our backline and also they (Kovacic, Kante, Jorginho) aren't going to be that much efficient in the final third either. 
Just for the sake of it, I do hope that we sign Rice. Even if that means selling Kante/Jorginho/Kovacic. I would be looking forward to see if people would be as biased against him as they had been against Jorginho, I'm curious. 

[Gol15]

With all said and done here are the stats from this game

Maybe we lack a faster player that would track back once our high-press doesn't work but objectively Jorginho has been doing his role in a good manner, maybe lacking some urgency to position himself for a pass but it's a bit unlucky that we don't really click yet, once T.Silva is back things will get better I think. 

[Brutos]

So who's blaming the Jorginho this weekend?

[Ukraine Bolt]

Think we look a much better team in attack when he went off the other night. We move the ball so much quicker up the pitch.

[Gol15]

20 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Think we look a much better team in attack when he went off the other night. We move the ball so much quicker up the pitch.

It's still just one game bu even so I think Ziyech will become the new organiser of the team pretty fast.

[Slojo]

I think he had a poor game yesterday tbh. 

 

[sonic90]

I like him but I find it difficult to appreciate what he does, he can pick out a Fabregas style long pass once in a while but other than that, to my eyes he just looks like a pretty average midfielder.

[Imran_CFC]

26 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

I like him but I find it difficult to appreciate what he does, he can pick out a Fabregas style long pass once in a while but other than that, to my eyes he just looks like a pretty average midfielder.

Alongside Billy he is our most natural deep lying defensive midfielder, Kante & Kova are both Box to Box midfielders and Kai & Mount are better suited to more advanced roles. He is positionally disciplined and this is one of the main reasons he tends to excel in interception stats, he allows us to play out from the back and gives us control and leadership especially when we are in possession of the ball.

In terms of his drawbacks they are fairly well documented, lack of pace and physicality and some may even say that the pace of his ball progression could be improved. In my view he absolutely has to play against teams who will press us high, we don't have CB's (with the exception of Silva) who can play out from the back without Jorginho to receive the ball from them and with Jorginho in the team we need to have movement around him to give him those options.

In a 4-2-3-1 we have a disconnect between our midfield and attack especially if we have Kante as the 2nd midfielder next to Jorginho because this season Kante has been below par with the ball at his feet. We need to play with a 4-3-3 which would allow Jorginho a couple of options on both sides to progress the ball forward, after last nights game a number of people are calling for a midfield 3 of Kai, Kante and Mount but again I am unsure of the balance if Kante is the deep lying midfielder trusted with progressing the ball.

I think we have good options in our midfield but with each combination we lose something, Lampard will need to take a horses for courses approach to our midfield dependent on our opponents. 

[Nibs]

Going by Jorginho's performance last night really only have one question.

When is Billy Gimour likely to be fit and available again?

 

[Gol15]

2 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

Alongside Billy he is our most natural deep lying defensive midfielder, Kante & Kova are both Box to Box midfielders and Kai & Mount are better suited to more advanced roles. He is positionally disciplined and this is one of the main reasons he tends to excel in interception stats, he allows us to play out from the back and gives us control and leadership especially when we are in possession of the ball.

In terms of his drawbacks they are fairly well documented, lack of pace and physicality and some may even say that the pace of his ball progression could be improved. In my view he absolutely has to play against teams who will press us high, we don't have CB's (with the exception of Silva) who can play out from the back without Jorginho to receive the ball from them and with Jorginho in the team we need to have movement around him to give him those options.

In a 4-2-3-1 we have a disconnect between our midfield and attack especially if we have Kante as the 2nd midfielder next to Jorginho because this season Kante has been below par with the ball at his feet. We need to play with a 4-3-3 which would allow Jorginho a couple of options on both sides to progress the ball forward, after last nights game a number of people are calling for a midfield 3 of Kai, Kante and Mount but again I am unsure of the balance if Kante is the deep lying midfielder trusted with progressing the ball.

I think we have good options in our midfield but with each combination we lose something, Lampard will need to take a horses for courses approach to our midfield dependent on our opponents. 

I would really like to see

    Jorginho

Havertz Mount

and

    Kovacic

Havertz Mount

Either way this is how we are going to play in the future with Rice (or preferably Tonali) or Gilmour.

[sonic90]

2 hours ago, Imran_CFC said:

Alongside Billy he is our most natural deep lying defensive midfielder, Kante & Kova are both Box to Box midfielders and Kai & Mount are better suited to more advanced roles. He is positionally disciplined and this is one of the main reasons he tends to excel in interception stats, he allows us to play out from the back and gives us control and leadership especially when we are in possession of the ball.

In terms of his drawbacks they are fairly well documented, lack of pace and physicality and some may even say that the pace of his ball progression could be improved. In my view he absolutely has to play against teams who will press us high, we don't have CB's (with the exception of Silva) who can play out from the back without Jorginho to receive the ball from them and with Jorginho in the team we need to have movement around him to give him those options.

In a 4-2-3-1 we have a disconnect between our midfield and attack especially if we have Kante as the 2nd midfielder next to Jorginho because this season Kante has been below par with the ball at his feet. We need to play with a 4-3-3 which would allow Jorginho a couple of options on both sides to progress the ball forward, after last nights game a number of people are calling for a midfield 3 of Kai, Kante and Mount but again I am unsure of the balance if Kante is the deep lying midfielder trusted with progressing the ball.

I think we have good options in our midfield but with each combination we lose something, Lampard will need to take a horses for courses approach to our midfield dependent on our opponents. 

The problem is his lack of physicality does not go well with being a DM at all, he isn't as combative as Gilmour or Kante and doesn't pre emptively intercept to the level of Matic.
It's like someone took Cesc and adjusted the sliders to lower his creativity and up his defensive ability but only by a bit.

At the minute I think Jorginho does serve a purpose as you described, especially since Gilmour is injured but it just doesn't seem like he is a high level player that we can win titles with, unless the manager can spot something he really excels at and build the team around that.

[jack_super_class]

To me a midfield three of

        Kante

Havertz    Kovacic

Gives us a really nice balance. Kante passing yesterday was every bit as good as Jorginhos, but Kante gives us more aggression, strength, speed, better tackling and interceptions and stops counter attacks. Jorginho gets so found out as soon as the game opens up, Kante wont. Jorginho is suppose to help us build from the back, he didn't yesterday for example. Kante looks poor further up the pitch, loses the ball easily, so this is the best position to play him. Kovacic is also good in defensive but is better on the ball than Kante so he should play further up, and his ability to dribble past players to create space for others is important. Plus Kovacic is better in keeping possession especially when being pressed than Kante. And Havertz is the creative one in the 3, relying on him to create, and get in the ball to score. Mount can play instead of Kovacic in games where we should have alot of the ball.

[Gol15]

3 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

To me a midfield three of

        Kante

Havertz    Kovacic

Gives us a really nice balance. Kante passing yesterday was every bit as good as Jorginhos, but Kante gives us more aggression, strength, speed, better tackling and interceptions and stops counter attacks. Jorginho gets so found out as soon as the game opens up, Kante wont. Jorginho is suppose to help us build from the back, he didn't yesterday for example. Kante looks poor further up the pitch, loses the ball easily, so this is the best position to play him. Kovacic is also good in defensive but is better on the ball than Kante so he should play further up, and his ability to dribble past players to create space for others is important. Plus Kovacic is better in keeping possession especially when being pressed than Kante. And Havertz is the creative one in the 3, relying on him to create, and get in the ball to score. Mount can play instead of Kovacic in games where we should have alot of the ball.

Kante never played that in his whole life... Jorginho and Kovacic have. 

[jack_super_class]

Just now, Gol15 said:

Kante never played that in his whole life... Jorginho and Kovacic have. 

Well he did for a few games last season so thats wrong. Secondly thats not a reason as to why he cant play there, he looked comfortable playing there yesterday. Lampard played him there away to Villa last season and he said he asked Kante to play there and Kante was fine with it. Why cant he play there? it shouldn't be that alien to him. Victor Moses never played right wing back before, he didn't do too bad for us did he?.

[Gol15]

59 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Well he did for a few games last season so thats wrong. Secondly thats not a reason as to why he cant play there, he looked comfortable playing there yesterday. Lampard played him there away to Villa last season and he said he asked Kante to play there and Kante was fine with it. Why cant he play there? it shouldn't be that alien to him. Victor Moses never played right wing back before, he didn't do too bad for us did he?.

Good luck with that lol

[Nibs]

5 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Good luck with that lol

Good footballers adapt and really good footballers can play anywhere. Sure, they have their favoured positions, but they can still play a number of positions and still be good.

Kante's form might have dipped but he is a very good footballer and showed last night, that he can do a better job than (the talented but rather limited) Jorginho.

[Gol15]

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Good footballers adapt and really good footballers can play anywhere. Sure, they have their favoured positions, but they can still play a number of positions and still be good.

Kante's form might have dipped but he is a very good footballer and showed last night, that he can do a better job than (the talented but rather limited) Jorginho.

Mhm...