Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[Ukraine Bolt]

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

This season though, Jorginho has been better than Rice and if we keep the majority of the possession in most games we don't need Rice but a sitting classic DM, which Rice doesn't offer as he roams a whole lot similar to Kante. Also we didn't have over 20 games without defeat for nothing, Jorginho has done well overall.

Jorginho had a one month purple patch when the new manager came in. That’s not a good season.

[Ukraine Bolt]

50 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

That's just your opinion, that is in general biased against Jorginho, at all times or so...so...feel free to disagree but stats say otherwise 

That’s not an opinion, Rice has a better rating for the season according to Whoscored.

[Gol15]

3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Jorginho had a one month purple patch when the new manager came in. That’s not a good season.

We had what, 24-25 games with Jorginho in the starting lineup without defeat? That's whole season and much earlier than Tuchel. Jorignho has done well in our biggest games now as well so you can't really say that he had a purple patch, he has been reliable in general.

[Gol15]

3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

That’s not an opinion, Rice has a better rating for the season according to Whoscored.

Sadly I don't care about Whoscored but according to real stats and not ratings, Jorginho has been having a much better season than Rice and besides we're talking about West Ham that has 30% possession in general, I don't think we want to go back to that playstyle with Mount, Havertz, Kovacic and so on... 

[Gol15]

23 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

His agent might be spouting BS but if he does want to go home then I say let him if we get an acceptable offer. Not sure any of those sides in Italy can afford him though as even Milan are struggling to pay half that for Tomori.

I think we need a new DM regardless of Jorginho, I don't even see Gilmour as a sitting DM anymore after he has shown that he can do a lot with the ball in his feet he's more dynamic.

[dkw]

42 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho has been having a much better season than Rice

no he hasn't. 

[LongtimerLurker]

Jorginho is a divisive figure that's for sure. More often than not when he plays we tend to avoid defeat. When he plays well the team also plays well. When he doesn't play well...I don't think I need to remind people. When the team doesn't play well he can often come off the bench and settle us down. I think he is a valuable member of this squad, he puts his penalties away more often than he doesn't which is important we all know guaranteed pens are needed at this level.

I agree we need a dm with legs though but I don't think that would mean we should discard Jorgeeh. I know it wasn't one of their best sides in the recent 15 years but the way we dismantled Arsenal in the Europa League was largely in part to Hazard's brilliance but, also our midfield 3 of Kante, Kova and Jorginho looked so good that day especially from the 2nd half.

[Gol15]

42 minutes ago, dkw said:

no he hasn't. 

[Nibs]

Jorginho is a decent squad player. Rice is first name on West Ham teamsheet and being touted as future England captain.

Rice has been getting rave reviews from all & sundry for the past two seasons. The only person giving Jorginho rave reviews is..............you know who!

West Ham will be looking for £70M + if they sell Rice. We'll take whatever we can get for Jorginho..................!

[RMH]

1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Jorginho is a divisive figure that's for sure. More often than not when he plays we tend to avoid defeat. When he plays well the team also plays well. When he doesn't play well...I don't think I need to remind people. When the team doesn't play well he can often come off the bench and settle us down. I think he is a valuable member of this squad, he puts his penalties away more often than he doesn't which is important we all know guaranteed pens are needed at this level.

I agree we need a dm with legs though but I don't think that would mean we should discard Jorgeeh. I know it wasn't one of their best sides in the recent 15 years but the way we dismantled Arsenal in the Europa League was largely in part to Hazard's brilliance but, also our midfield 3 of Kante, Kova and Jorginho looked so good that day especially from the 2nd half.

The problem with that reasoning is that he plays well when opposition doesn’t press him or man mark him, when the press is intense he is not capable of getting rid of the pressure. Even Kepa is great when the opposition does not shoot or cross the ball, when the pressure is on the box, he’s not that good.

And I’m not against Jorginho, I think he’s the kind of player required for a type of football and he’s good at what he does, but we are moving away from that style of play.

[Gol15]

28 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Jorginho is a decent squad player. Rice is first name on West Ham teamsheet and being touted as future England captain.

Rice has been getting rave reviews from all & sundry for the past two seasons. The only person giving Jorginho rave reviews is..............you know who!

West Ham will be looking for £70M + if they sell Rice. We'll take whatever we can get for Jorginho..................!

For the record I was in favor of Lampard getting Rice back in January and the only reason for that was that I believed in Lampard so if he needed precisely Rice then he should have him just like Ole Gunnar got Bruno in January which was the player that he also precisely needed at the time. Lampard would still continue with 4-3-3 but with Rice at the base of the midfield instead of Kante which may or may not be the best option but from the reports and rumors this is what Lampard wanted and I was fully supporting it.

But this has nothing to do with what I was talking about, Rice might not be the DM that we actually need because someone way long ago showed that Rice roams a whole lot which is basically similar to Kante. We would need a more disciplined DM because part from Jorginho we simply lack a more sitting DM and even Jorginho isn't a classical DM that I'm talking about.

Now, Rice might be in the future a great player and the captain of England (I personally doubt it due to Mount but that's just me) but it still doesn't show that this season Jorginho has been having better stats than Rice.

Furthermore if we are to continue to play in this way, we wouldn't really need a player like Rice that isn't going to pass that well and that isn't going to create many chances anyway, he's playing for a team that is defensively oriented and that lets most of their opposition to have the majority of the ball possession, even Bakayoko looked great in a team like that when he was averaging a high number of tackles but it doesn't mean that Rice would offer much for us in the long run when most teams rely on counter-attacks against us, we did stop conceding goals in general part from that 1 bad game so what exactly does Rice bring to the table if not further unbalance in our midfield?

I personally feel like we should be talking much much more about Ndidi from Leicester than Rice, just as an example because Jorginho actually has more duels won per 90minutes in comparison to Rice which is saying a lot...really a lot.

[dkw]

Ooh, he received more passes....wow that's amazing, I've totally changed my mind.

What a totally pointless stat ha ha. Honestly these stats are beyond tedious now. They prove absolutely f**k all.

And if we're gonna go and cherry pick one mistake to prove a point then it's already gone beyond worth discussing.

Edited April 9, 2021 by dkw

[Argo]

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

Jorginho is a decent squad player. Rice is first name on West Ham teamsheet and being touted as future England captain.

Rice has been getting rave reviews from all & sundry for the past two seasons. The only person giving Jorginho rave reviews is..............you know who!

West Ham will be looking for £70M + if they sell Rice. We'll take whatever we can get for Jorginho..................!

Ofcourse West Ham will be looking for that much money for Rice. He's literally the face of their club. It's not new for a club at level to do similar with players of that profile (ten years ago Newcastle with Andy Carroll prime example).

I like him but my head and my heart are saying two completely different things here.

[sonic90]

Let him go, Lord Drinkwater is ready to take his place..

[The Don Antonio]

I

2 hours ago, dkw said:

Ooh, he received more passes....wow that's amazing, I've totally changed my mind.

What a totally pointless stat ha ha. Honestly these stats are beyond tedious now. They prove absolutely f**k all.

And if we're gonna go and cherry pick one mistake to prove a point then it's already gone beyond worth discussing.

It is actually not a ridiculous stat when u consider that we are a possession based team. We usually have at least 60 percent of possession while West Ham probably have less than 40 percent. Rice would have been ideal for lampards running up and down football but I doubt he will be good in Tuchels possession  system. Same way Jorginho will flourish playing for mancity under pep but wont even make the bench in Klopps Rock and Roll liverpool team because he cant run.

 I believe we still need another Defensive midfielder though because Gilmour needs to go out on loan next season. I think Soumare at Lille or Ndidi will be great signings  

[DidierDrogbalala]

Apparently we are looking at Aurélien Tchouaméni from Monaco who's probably been one of the best midfielder in Ligue 1 this season. Could very well be the cover for Jorginho.

[Scott]

Meh . . .

 

 

[Argo]

4 hours ago, The Don Antonio said:

I

It is actually not a ridiculous stat when u consider that we are a possession based team. We usually have at least 60 percent of possession while West Ham probably have less than 40 percent. Rice would have been ideal for lampards running up and down football but I doubt he will be good in Tuchels possession  system. Same way Jorginho will flourish playing for mancity under pep but wont even make the bench in Klopps Rock and Roll liverpool team because he cant run.

 I believe we still need another Defensive midfielder though because Gilmour needs to go out on loan next season. I think Soumare at Lille or Ndidi will be great signings  

Yep Thiago Alcantara is proof of that, I'm convinced he would have been a huge hit had he chosen us or City.

[The Don Antonio]

5 hours ago, Argo said:

Yep Thiago Alcantara is proof of that, I'm convinced he would have been a huge hit had he chosen us or City.

Wow. Great observation. I agree 1000%

[Gol15]

10 hours ago, DidierDrogbalala said:

Apparently we are looking at Aurélien Tchouaméni from Monaco who's probably been one of the best midfielder in Ligue 1 this season. Could very well be the cover for Jorginho.

Reminds of Jorginho for sure but he's taller and younger.

[dkw]

11 hours ago, The Don Antonio said:

I

It is actually not a ridiculous stat when u consider that we are a possession based team. We usually have at least 60 percent of possession while West Ham probably have less than 40 percent.

You've just proven its a ridiculous stat to base a comparison on, we have more possession so our players are going to have more passes, that doesn't prove one player is better than the other in any way. 

[Gol15]

10 minutes ago, dkw said:

You've just proven its a ridiculous stat to base a comparison on, we have more possession so our players are going to have more passes, that doesn't prove one player is better than the other in any way. 

Yes but that's not the only thing I've said isn't it? It's funny how you isolate just 1 thing and refuse to see the big picture, we don't know if Rice would be good in a possession based team, we thought that Bakayoko would be good for us while we play counter-attacking football due to him averaging a high amount of tackles per game but it turned out that he can't take hold of the ball and can't pass and Kante couldn't really play with him in the midfield so imagine now that we have 60%+ possession in most games and even against the big teams... I'm not saying that Rice is like Bakayoko but I'm saying that Jorginho has been better than Rice, how does Rice have less time with the ball receiving a pass while playing 1000 minutes more than Jorginho? 

This is the whole picture:

Jorginho isn't known for winning duels yet he's better than Rice this season even at that which is a big red flag if you ask me, specially considering that we DO have the majority of possession in most games. By all means Rice should be better at winning duels since West Ham usually allows the opposition to have the ball.

We should forget about Rice now that Lampard isn't here and see if Ndidi from Leicester could be a better transfer target for us, or simply someone else.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Gol15

[The Don Antonio]

7 minutes ago, dkw said:

You've just proven its a ridiculous stat to base a comparison on, we have more possession so our players are going to have more passes, that doesn't prove one player is better than the other in any way. 

I am not saying one player is better than the other , I am saying one player fits our current team with Tuchels passing and possession philosophy while the other would fit a lampard high tempo team like Frank said in his interview yesterday.

@Argo made a great analogy with Thiago at Liverpool and how he would be a greater fit at mancity because of his attributes.

 

[RMH]

44 minutes ago, The Don Antonio said:

I am not saying one player is better than the other , I am saying one player fits our current team with Tuchels passing and possession philosophy while the other would fit a lampard high tempo team like Frank said in his interview yesterday.

@Argo made a great analogy with Thiago at Liverpool and how he would be a greater fit at mancity because of his attributes.

 

That would be if Tuchel wanted to play as Sarri, but this isn’t the case. Jorginho does not fit  system, in fact, I’d argue the team is so unbalanced that that’s why we struggle. We have a fast front line that would thrive with fast fluid forward passes, and a sluggish tiki-taka midfield. Jorginho would probably not flourish either at Pep’s City, he’s too soft to cover as Fernandinho and not an attacking threat as Gundogan, nor even a similar player to Rodri or Bernardo Silva. I just don’t see in for us unless we change the whole system and set of players to build the team around him.

[Nibs]

14 hours ago, Argo said:

Ofcourse West Ham will be looking for that much money for Rice. He's literally the face of their club. It's not new for a club at level to do similar with players of that profile (ten years ago Newcastle with Andy Carroll prime example).

I like him but my head and my heart are saying two completely different things here.

I agree to be honest. I like him, but not necessarily sure he is the right fit for us. Obviously the fact he was on our books as a kid and is such big pals with Mount makes it seem the right move but I wouldn't want to spend huge sums on him.