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Jorginho is a Blue


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4 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

United game is going to be interesting. 

Wonder if Tuchel will stick with Jorginho and Kovacic from the start or if he's tempted to try Kante/Kovacic again? 

Fernandes likes to occupy that space in front of the central defence, which is where you can often find Jorginho loitering. 

Fernandes has 15 goals and 11 assists in the league for United this season so whoever is tasked with keeping him quiet, arguably, has one of the most important jobs come Sunday. 

Maybe all 3 of them, with Kante tasked to man mark Fernandes.

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1 minute ago, ForeverCarefree said:

We're lacking creativity as it is right now. Sacrificing one of the attacking midfield players is the last thing we need right now! 

If we are looking to win the game then probably not the right call. However I expect a pragmatic approach from TT like against Wolves and I expect his focus will be far more on do not lose than win this.

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On 24/02/2021 at 19:20, Gol15 said:

Jorginho is a clear starter so it's either him + Kovacic or him + Kante because Mount is also a clear starter.

In our last match against them we played Jorginho-Kante and it finished 0:0.

As I just put in the Kante thread I feel it should be in here too. We are unbeaten in the last 18 games in which Jorginho has started. Also of the 3 games in which we have failed to win 2 of those he did not start. 

I don't get the hate anymore I really don't. At one time I did find my self frustrated with him but that was because the stick I was using to measure him by, was never his stick.

He is not Fabregas nor should be compared to him or any other deep lying playmaker who makes hollywood passes. He is the fulcrum of the team the metronome, one of the heartbeats alongside Kovacic and Kante to a certain extent they are the engine.

With the unique nature that is football and the enigma of footballers, why can't more fans just appreciate him for what he is and what he does instead of always looking at what he doesn't.

I like so many questioned why he had been in the team if all he does is make safe passes but that's not just it. We don't just pass for passing sake. Even the whole moving the opposition to one side to open up the other side of the pitch retort doesn't matter. Watch closely the next time Jorginho plays he has a knack for drawing the press towards him and eventually he releases the ball into space more often forward than you would imagine all the side passing can be deceptive.

He also puts a foot in to challenge, not to mention knows when to take a tactical foul. I get he isn't the strongest, nor the fastest and gets bypassed but he is a good footballer imo I'm just surprised some people can't see it.

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12 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

As I just put in the Kante thread I feel it should be in here too. We are unbeaten in the last 18 games in which Jorginho has started. Also of the 3 games in which we have failed to win 2 of those he did not start. 

I don't get the hate anymore I really don't. At one time I did find my self frustrated with him but that was because the stick I was using to measure him by, was never his stick.

He is not Fabregas nor should be compared to him or any other deep lying playmaker who makes hollywood passes. He is the fulcrum of the team the metronome, one of the heartbeats alongside Kovacic and Kante to a certain extent they are the engine.

With the unique nature that is football and the enigma of footballers, why can't more fans just appreciate him for what he is and what he does instead of always looking at what he doesn't.

I like so many questioned why he had been in the team if all he does is make safe passes but that's not just it. We don't just pass for passing sake. Even the whole moving the opposition to one side to open up the other side of the pitch retort doesn't matter. Watch closely the next time Jorginho plays he has a knack for drawing the press towards him and eventually he releases the ball into space more often forward than you would imagine all the side passing can be deceptive.

He also puts a foot in to challenge, not to mention knows when to take a tactical foul. I get he isn't the strongest, nor the fastest and gets bypassed but he is a good footballer imo I'm just surprised some people can't see it.

I think we are on a 19th game run without defeat with him in the starting lineup this season which is really nice considering that he played in total around 25 games.

The only game we lost with him in the starting lineup this season was against Liverpool after Christensen got a red card in the first half and Jorginho even missed a penalty so a lot of unlucky stuff happened there, if he plays vs Liverpool tomorrow and we win it will be 20th game with him that we didn't lose when he started the game, otherwise if we lose it will be against Liverpool that we lost twice this season while Jorginho was in the starting lineup.

He has been a key player for Sarri and for Lampard before this season and as soon as Tuchel came he relied on him automatically vs Wolves and we broke some possession and pass records in that match automatically as well.

That's him proving his worth for 3 managers now, even in Italy when he plays they haven't lost a match in over 15 games and they will play in the Nation's League finals in the semi-final vs Spain, the other semi finalists are France and Belgium so Italy is now at the top of Europe with the current World Champions France and 3rd placed Belgium along side Spain and Jorginho has an important role for them, they topped their group that had Netherlands, Poland and Bosnia&Herxegovina.

Against Atletico Madrid he had a good game, I thought it would be hard for him since the Atletico players are more physical and disciplined in pressing than most PL teams but he passed the ball well, had 3/3 tackles and we kept the performance on a high level throughout the whole game against the best La Liga team this season, basically he and Mount pressed Atletico the best so there you have 2 players that do their roles decently even against the top teams out there!

 

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14 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

As I just put in the Kante thread I feel it should be in here too. We are unbeaten in the last 18 games in which Jorginho has started. Also of the 3 games in which we have failed to win 2 of those he did not start. 

...

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I think we are on a 19th game run without defeat with him in the starting lineup this season which is really nice considering that he played in total around 25 games.

...

Ok, so now it is not that we have won all games when Jorginho started (which now we haven't) but that we are unbeaten when he's started. I'm fed up with people using wrongly statistics. What about comparing to the random expectation drawn from the team results and all the players? That's what proper stats do, not just counting games to draw a conclusion that it is most likely not a direct result of the variable (Jorginho playing) and certainly not significant. Also, correlation is not causation!!!

Having said that, I don't have an issue with Jorginho. I understand his role, thought that he was necessary for Sarri's style, and I am not too critical with him nor do I expect him to play Fabregas' role. He's got clear weaknesses, he's easily tossed aside by other players (Sheffield was a clear recent example of this), but he is also the player in midfield that we need to keep the ball moving and to keep possession. However, I think he has regressed in that he was more efficient moving the ball forward under Sarri than in the last couple of seasons, and he did play long balls more often. But most importantly, and this is where I think that most criticism comes from, I am not convinced that the system works anymore. We are masters of keeping possession and Jorginho plays a big role in that. BUT we need to start creating chances and Jorginho does not do that. We need a midfielder with a clear forward vision alla Fabregas (for me Gilmour can be that player in the near future), and I believe that we also need a DM like Rice or whoever the club identifies to play alongside. Kante or Kovacic can be the third midfielder if we play with 3.  In my opinion, that would be a more compensated midfield that would be creative enough for our forward players and also protect better the defence. I think that most of the criticism towards Jorginho comes from the fact that he is the main representative of a style of play that its not working anymore (did it ever worked after Sarri left?), and of our midfielders I think he's the more specialised and the one that we can do without if we move away from this sideways passing style of ours. I don't even think that City has a player like Jorginho, and they are the most possession-focused team in the PL.

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On 03/03/2021 at 23:41, RMH said:

 

Ok, so now it is not that we have won all games when Jorginho started (which now we haven't) but that we are unbeaten when he's started. I'm fed up with people using wrongly statistics. What about comparing to the random expectation drawn from the team results and all the players? That's what proper stats do, not just counting games to draw a conclusion that it is most likely not a direct result of the variable (Jorginho playing) and certainly not significant. Also, correlation is not causation!!!

Having said that, I don't have an issue with Jorginho. I understand his role, thought that he was necessary for Sarri's style, and I am not too critical with him nor do I expect him to play Fabregas' role. He's got clear weaknesses, he's easily tossed aside by other players (Sheffield was a clear recent example of this), but he is also the player in midfield that we need to keep the ball moving and to keep possession. However, I think he has regressed in that he was more efficient moving the ball forward under Sarri than in the last couple of seasons, and he did play long balls more often. But most importantly, and this is where I think that most criticism comes from, I am not convinced that the system works anymore. We are masters of keeping possession and Jorginho plays a big role in that. BUT we need to start creating chances and Jorginho does not do that. We need a midfielder with a clear forward vision alla Fabregas (for me Gilmour can be that player in the near future), and I believe that we also need a DM like Rice or whoever the club identifies to play alongside. Kante or Kovacic can be the third midfielder if we play with 3.  In my opinion, that would be a more compensated midfield that would be creative enough for our forward players and also protect better the defence. I think that most of the criticism towards Jorginho comes from the fact that he is the main representative of a style of play that its not working anymore (did it ever worked after Sarri left?), and of our midfielders I think he's the more specialised and the one that we can do without if we move away from this sideways passing style of ours. I don't even think that City has a player like Jorginho, and they are the most possession-focused team in the PL.

Fernandinho is the ideal DM we need that performs the Jorginho role and more.

I wonder if we can find someone like that in the current market

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Played well overall but had me clenching the buttocks big time the last 20 minutes when they were really pressing and he turned the ball over cheaply a couple of times. Just about got away with the turn on the edge of our box but then tried to run and passed it straight to Fabinho.

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Just now, Imran_CFC said:

Did he provide in depth analysis surrounding the names? 

Sadly I think he missed a trick there. 

Tbf I did find Gol bloody annoying at times, but I think they should bring him back, I don't think he said anything BAD, he just used to wind people up a lot. 

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3 hours ago, Slojo said:

Very good, even defensively, unfortuante to finish the game with an assist today. 

He really was excellent, barely put a foot wrong. Whole team did very well but in particular Rudiger, Christensen, Jorginho, Kante and Mount were superb.

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'Played well overall but had me clenching the buttocks big time the last 20 minutes when they were really pressing and he turned the ball over cheaply a couple of times. Just about got away with the turn on the edge of our box but then tried to run and passed it straight to Fabinho."


Nah, Werner changed his mind, he showed his feet then turned up field for the over the top ball. That was miscommunication, and I think Werner was. just out of gas at that time.

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"Ok, so now it is not that we have won all games when Jorginho started (which now we haven't) but that we are unbeaten when he's started. I'm fed up with people using wrongly statistics. What about comparing to the random expectation drawn from the team results and all the players? That's what proper stats do, not just counting games to draw a conclusion that it is most likely not a direct result of the variable (Jorginho playing) and certainly not significant. Also, correlation is not causation!!!"

Just do a two sample T test and there you go. We average 2.21 points per game when Jorginho starts and 1.23 points per game in when he doesn't - only counting premier league games.
The only difference I see that is close is 1.56 points per game under Frank, and 2.25 under TT. And he's one 11 guys on the field, the game and result is dependent on him and all the players, I don't think you could find any proper statistician that would entertain the argument that how we play when Jorginho starts isn't causation.

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