Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[EdinburghBlue]

9 hours ago, KonaKai Blue said:

If we had the right players exiled then why did we reach a position where Frank lost his job? Mistakes happen, Tuchel and Silva made a rare one but Jorgino is a constant. 

Because we paid a sh*t load for two particular German players who haven’t even remotely lived up to their price tag would be a large part I’d imagine. Alongside, said exiled players apparently kicking off behind the scenes. 
could be a number of things, doesn’t mean he was wrong about those players - we’ve seen the inconsistency, shocking performances from Alonso, Rudiger, Jorgi etc for years now. They’re not young players, it’s not gonna change now. But when you rotate managers every 1 or 2 years max it’s rinse and repeat the cycle again.

[axman2526]

Usually a defender of Jorgi but got nothing good to say for him this time. Worst performance I have ever seen from a distributor in a long, long time.

[nonotnowjim]

Guy was awful yesterday. Directly at fault for goals conceded and offered nothing going forward. 
 

One of the worst performances I have seen for a long time, and a huge step back for the midfield pairing of kova/jorgi 

[KonaKai Blue]

7 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Because we paid a sh*t load for two particular German players who haven’t even remotely lived up to their price tag would be a large part I’d imagine. Alongside, said exiled players apparently kicking off behind the scenes. 
could be a number of things, doesn’t mean he was wrong about those players - we’ve seen the inconsistency, shocking performances from Alonso, Rudiger, Jorgi etc for years now. They’re not young players, it’s not gonna change now. But when you rotate managers every 1 or 2 years max it’s rinse and repeat the cycle again.

I think its harsh to put Rudiger in that category. 

I don't think the changing of managers is the main reason for this problem. We've just signed players who have not lived up to the standards expected of them. If we had kept Sarri and made exactly the same signings, it doesn't guarantee anything.

We were all praising the board in the summer. We backed the manager heavily. The signings have all fallen short which is just so unfortunate.

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Guy was awful yesterday. Directly at fault for goals conceded and offered nothing going forward. 
 

One of the worst performances I have seen for a long time, and a huge step back for the midfield pairing of kova/jorgi 

I agree, it was his worst performance this season no doubt about it.

Then it's also this big elephant in the room - nobody steps up as soon as someone has a very bad game, you would expect a world class player like T.Silva to deal with the extra pressure when a midfielder isn't playing well but he was just too reckless and couldn't handle it, then our POTY Kovacic doesn't make the extra effort to make a difference when things aren't going well either and Alonso's defending was just horrible throughout the game.

It's like one horrible performance of one player spreads to the rest in no time and there isn't anyone on the pitch that can stop us from getting absolutely trashed... Yes this may have been the first time this season and it was right after the international break but pretty scary if it takes so little to make the whole squad looking so bad overall.

[KonaKai Blue]

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

I agree, it was his worst performance this season no doubt about it.

Then it's also this big elephant in the room - nobody steps up as soon as someone has a very bad game, you would expect a world class player like T.Silva to deal with the extra pressure when a midfielder isn't playing well but he was just too reckless and couldn't handle it, then our POTY Kovacic doesn't make the extra effort to make a difference when things aren't going well either and Alonso's defending was just horrible throughout the game.

It's like one horrible performance of one player spreads to the rest in no time and there isn't anyone on the pitch that can stop us from getting absolutely trashed... Yes this may have been the first time this season and it was right after the international break but pretty scary if it takes so little to make the whole squad looking so bad overall.

Before the red card he was shocking. Over hitting balls constantly. We went 1-0 up so I would say despite his bad performance, the rest of the team would have stepped up.

A man down and that all goes out the window. Even worse with his performance which effectively leaves us down to 9 men.

[Gol15]

3 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Before the red card he was shocking. Over hitting balls constantly. We went 1-0 up so I would say despite his bad performance, the rest of the team would have stepped up.

A man down and that all goes out the window. Even worse with his performance which effectively leaves us down to 9 men.

But that's the thing, we scored and 1 minute or so afterwards Silva gets sent off so it's not like anyone could compensate for Jorginho's bad game and then Tuchel kept him in play for over 70 minutes for reasons unknown...

You could argue that if Jorginho had played well like he usually does that we wouldn't have lost the game but it also shows just how bad we can be defensively as a unit as soon as our backline is more pressured, this has been the case for the past season after all regardless if the midfield played well or not.

[icecoolguy22]

Just to show when you have 2-3 players having an absolute shockers, the team had no chance even against a team destined for relegation. Not sure if the 2 weeks of international break had anything to do with, he's always a step slower, and made an easy target for WBA players to press him, and ended up losing the ball all over the game. Silva's fault to get himself sent off, but Jorginho certainly assisted with that with careless passing and control, and whatever else happened after the sent off.

[Bob stark]

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

But that's the thing, we scored and 1 minute or so afterwards Silva gets sent off so it's not like anyone could compensate for Jorginho's bad game and then Tuchel kept him in play for over 70 minutes for reasons unknown...

You could argue that if Jorginho had played well like he usually does that we wouldn't have lost the game but it also shows just how bad we can be defensively as a unit as soon as our backline is more pressured, this has been the case for the past season after all regardless if the midfield played well or not.

Tuchel kept him for 70 min because simply there is no other option. With Kante out we have only two midfielder left. 

[jack_super_class]

Considering Kante injuries and Jorginho being useless its no surprise we are linked with this guy from Monaco. 

 

[Bob stark]

52 minutes ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Just to show when you have 2-3 players having an absolute shockers, the team had no chance even against a team destined for relegation. Not sure if the 2 weeks of international break had anything to do with, he's always a step slower, and made an easy target for WBA players to press him, and ended up losing the ball all over the game. Silva's fault to get himself sent off, but Jorginho certainly assisted with that with careless passing and control, and whatever else happened after the sent off.

If you lose the ball with sloppy pass close to your box, it does not matter if the other 10 player played well you will have massive problem. 

 

[Gol15]

11 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Tuchel kept him for 70 min because simply there is no other option. With Kante out we have only two midfielder left. 

That's not really true, he could have taken him out and play Mount, Gilmour or even rotate James more centrally while playing CHO on the wing.

[charierre]

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That's not really true, he could have taken him out and play Mount, Gilmour or even rotate James more centrally while playing CHO on the wing.

Agreed we had quite a lot of options, one of which was to return to a four at the back earlier, flood the middle of the park and make ourselves harder to beat. I was very disappointed with Tuchel's response yesterday, he was very slow to react to the difficult situation.

[Bob stark]

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

That's not really true, he could have taken him out and play Mount, Gilmour or even rotate James more centrally while playing CHO on the wing.

Mount isn't a midfielder in a two you play him there only in emergency or next to a real dm not kova. Gilmour is a kid and he wasn't in the team. You can try James as dm but he hasn't played there since his wigan days. Maybe Christensen but again all of this are last resort stuff 

 

[The Rising Sun]

I wouldn't blame Gilmour if he fancied a move now

 

[The Rising Sun]

26 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Mount isn't a midfielder in a two you play him there only in emergency or next to a real dm not kova. Gilmour is a kid and he wasn't in the team. You can try James as dm but he hasn't played there since his wigan days. Maybe Christensen but again all of this are last resort stuff 

 

Gilmour a kid ?

John Sparrow was 16 on his debut

[Backbiter]

28 minutes ago, The Rising Sun said:

Gilmour a kid ?

John Sparrow was 16 on his debut

As was Tommy Langley. Seem to remember Chalobah being in the match-day squad as a 15 year old, too, but he didn't get on.

[axman2526]

3 hours ago, Gol15 said:

That's not really true, he could have taken him out and play Mount, Gilmour or even rotate James more centrally while playing CHO on the wing.

If we wanted to maintain the back 3 Jorgi should have been the one of two subbed along with Ziyech for Christensen and Mount. 

[Gol15]

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Mount isn't a midfielder in a two you play him there only in emergency or next to a real dm not kova. Gilmour is a kid and he wasn't in the team. You can try James as dm but he hasn't played there since his wigan days. Maybe Christensen but again all of this are last resort stuff 

 

1. Mount can absolutely play deeper and it was kind of a real emergency.

2. Gilmour was on the bench and there are many people that think that he's good enough to play.

I don't buy that Tuchel had no options because he DID take off Jorginho after 70 minutes so he could have done it much sooner after it was really obvious that he's having a bad game!

[Gol15]

23 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

If we wanted to maintain the back 3 Jorgi should have been the one of two subbed along with Ziyech for Christensen and Mount. 

Much better decision since we would have the epic work rate of Mount as soon as we had a player less while still having Pulisic + Werner in attack. Tuchel basically left Werner solo in attack which is silly he isn't playing that well and he's not clinical at all, then he took out Jorginho for Havertz so he was fine playing with one less midfielder from minute 72'... Why not taking Jorginho out after Silva gets his second yellow? Can't be worse than how it looked...

[LongtimerLurker]

I assume he kept Jorginho in to try and reverse his match form and try to keep possession rather than suffer without the ball. This backfired and his limitations got exposed as the midfield got overrun constantly same with the defense. All the luxury buys in the summer came back to haunt us when we don't have a dm that can protect the defense in scenarios like yesterday.

[Oli]

really shows how much we rely on kante. 

[RMH]

The thing is that we’ve seen Kova and Kante not working well, we’ve said here that Jorginho and Kova complement each other better. When Kante is on it, he’s a beast, but him and Kova don’t seem to complement their game. Now, why not give Gilmour a shout in when Jorginho is sh*t? He’s shown that he can be a great midfielder and on the worst days, he is not worse than the rest of the team. So get Gilmour on the pitch and at least he can start getting minutes under his belt.

[Gol15]

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I assume he kept Jorginho in to try and reverse his match form and try to keep possession rather than suffer without the ball. This backfired and his limitations got exposed as the midfield got overrun constantly same with the defense. All the luxury buys in the summer came back to haunt us when we don't have a dm that can protect the defense in scenarios like yesterday.

I have heard that thing, "DM protecting the backline" far too much earlier in the season but this is the first game where you can actually pinpoint to our DM simply not playing well at all and making a lot of problems for our team.

Even so, how can any DM protect the backline given the fact in what manner we conceded the first goal - from a long ball that came from the opposition keeper right to his striker? That has nothing to do with our midfield, that is just terrible defending.

Yes Jorginho had a bad game as said, but it still doesn't mean that our defending was acceptable - Yes he did lose the ball that resulted in T.Silva getting 2 yellow cards but does that mean that T.Silva will always get a red card as soon as he's put under pressure, isn't he a world class player that should be fairly comfortable in handling at least one West Brom striker? I find it a bit mind-blowing that some think that T.Silva had no responsibility at all, someone with his experience should have done better.

Jorginho did lose possession at the second goal we conceded but again it seems that nobody noticed that James chipped the ball back to him first and foremost and that Jorginho barely managed to connect with the header there which in turn made us lose possession - it's a bit obvious that we were sloppy there as a unit and not just Jorginho because how can Pereira, a player that prior to this match had 5 goals and 3 assists in 25 games abuse our backline so much? He had 2 goals and 2 assists but when we look at the full sequence for that second goal - Zouma, Alonso, James and Mendy did absolutely nothing there at all, no effort to defend whatsoever.

I don't buy this same old "must find a DM that protects the backline" because Lampard basically put Kante at the base of the midfield for that "protection" and it didn't work out at all because as soon as our defenders were pressured they simply couldn't defend at all, this was the case yesterday even with Jorginho having a bad game.

A more complete picture is that while having a player less it was Jorginho's build up that led to our 2nd goal before he got subbed off, so even while having his worst game he still managed to find an opening with a long ball towards Alonso which in turn passed to Werner for an easy tap-in by Mount - 1 bad game doesn't mean that Jorginho never ever managed to do anything, I wouldn't start him against Porto after this bad performance but we definitely need him for the rest of the season and if Gilmour isn't getting any game time we simply must buy a DM in the summer because part from Jorginho we don't have a DM that sits deep and that can pass the ball well. 

[axman2526]

One more thing. How come CHO can get hauled off after coming on as a sub when he was playing nowhere near the level of poor Jorgi was, but Jorgi stays on for 70 minutes?

Easy to pick on the kid I guess.