Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[The Don Antonio]

15 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

As an Australian I would rather eat sh*t than see England win anything but it would be some irony if Jorginho lost in a final to an English midfield featuring Declan Rice

His matchup in that scenario wud be mason mount though ... Come to think of it that would be awesome seeing how jorginho deals with mounts relentless pressing

[SydneyChelsea]

1 hour ago, The Don Antonio said:

His matchup in that scenario wud be mason mount though ... Come to think of it that would be awesome seeing how jorginho deals with mounts relentless pressing

Pressing is not really the issue, his strength is retaining the ball. Apart from a glaring weakness in that he is unable to chase down most players on a counter-attack, he's pretty good defensively.

It's actually doing something with it, especially against teams that drop deep and concede possession, that he struggles with.

That's 90% of the teams we will face in the Premier League. We won't win the league unless a) he improves his attacking/creative game or b) we replace him with a player who is more capable.

[SydneyChelsea]

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

That long line that goes all the way close to the bottom right corner, at the baseline and around the edge of the box, that was a perfect ball to Chiesa:

Yes it was. That is how you pass a long ball.

However the last time he did that in Chelsea shirt was probably to Hudson-Odoi in February. Doing it at international level is one thing. He needs to be doing that every game if he wants to be an effective player at Premier League Level. That is almost the bare minimum required for a deep-lying playmaker.

[ashwin]

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Pressing is not really the issue, his strength is retaining the ball. Apart from a glaring weakness in that he is unable to chase down most players on a counter-attack, he's pretty good defensively.

It's actually doing something with it, especially against teams that drop deep and concede possession, that he struggles with.

That's 90% of the teams we will face in the Premier League. We won't win the league unless a) he improves his attacking/creative game or b) we replace him with a player who is more capable.

Spot on.

[Guest Sindre]

4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

We won't win the league unless a) he improves his attacking/creative game or b) we replace him with a player who is more capable.

I disagree with this. City and Liverpool haven't had particularly "creative" DM's in their title winning sides the past four seasons for example.

And those who are complaining about Jorginho's passing in midfield would be in for a nasty surprise if we replaced him with someone like Rice. Because Jorginho is at a entirely different level on the ball.

A few months ago I am sure people would have argued we'd never win the CL with a player like Jorginho either and yet he was a massive part of us winning it a month ago.

 

[just]

8 hours ago, The Don Antonio said:

His matchup in that scenario wud be mason mount though ... Come to think of it that would be awesome seeing how jorginho deals with mounts relentless pressing

His match up would more likely be Kalvin Phillips who did a real job on him when we played Leeds.

Jorginho wasn't in the game at all.

 

[Argo]

8 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

As an Australian I would rather eat sh*t than see England win anything but it would be some irony if Jorginho lost in a final to an English midfield featuring Declan Rice

But on the flip side there would be excuse after excuse if it was reversed. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Argo

[strider6004]

It is interesting that Jorginho has started every Italian match, so obviously Mancini rates him.

He has not looked out of place either. 

Footy 365 site was saying in one of the recent matches that he was probably man of the match due to interceptions, a goal saving challenge and keeping Italy's tempo going. They added he is not everyone's cup of tea as defensively he is slow, yet Italy seem to have the engine to get a goal back when they need it. 

[Guest Sindre]

13 hours ago, Argo said:

 

We are lucky to have both of them.

Before Tuchel arrived they didn't really make a great midfield pairing but that's certainly changed.

[Argo]

3 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

It is interesting that Jorginho has started every Italian match, so obviously Mancini rates him.

He has not looked out of place either. 

Most managers seem too, even Mourinho who's not exactly known to have his type of player in the team waxed lyricals over him.

[Argo]

10 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Hahaha everything that Jorginho does well can be collaborated by 50 statistics and everything he does poorly can't be measured. He's the perfect player for the whoscored.com generation. 

 

The fact a DLP is being judged on shooting kind of points to an agenda doesn't it?

Mendy never scores either he must be rubbish!

[Munkunku]

12 hours ago, just said:

Can someone post up the Jorginho shot map.

 

 

[sonic90]

I think the problem with Jorginho discussions on this forum is that a lot of people can't appreciate or understand what he does by watching him and stats does not always convince people.

But on the flip side people who rate Jorginho won't acknowledge his flaws at all and offer up arguments as though he is a perfect player.
I watched his last match and he got completely embarassed on the turn multiple times but everyone is saying he was perfect/world class performance etc.

These things get lost when you post best compilation clips and selective stats, I'm no football tactician and I like Jorginho as a guy but I can't help but always come away from watching him feeling like he was tidy and that's it.

[Guest Sindre]

17 minutes ago, Argo said:

Most managers seem too, even Mourinho who's not exactly known to have his type of player in the team waxed lyricals over him.

Frankly, most supporters don't understand football.

If you play in midfield or ahead you better have the right amount of goals and assists and preferably a couple of flashy tricks in your locker or you'll be labeled as a poor or mediocre player no matter how important he is to his team.

 

[Munkunku]

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Frankly, most supporters don't understand football.

If you play in midfield or ahead you better have the right amount of goals and assists and preferably a couple of flashy tricks in your locker or you'll be labeled as a poor or mediocre player no matter how important he is to his team.

 

That’s not 100% true though is it, I can name Makelele and Kante as two of our own who get the plaudits they rightfully deserve. It is a rare thing mind. 

[Gol15]

8 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Yes it was. That is how you pass a long ball.

However the last time he did that in Chelsea shirt was probably to Hudson-Odoi in February. Doing it at international level is one thing. He needs to be doing that every game if he wants to be an effective player at Premier League Level. That is almost the bare minimum required for a deep-lying playmaker.

Just look at the teams that have won the league in recent times - Liverpool and Man City don't rely on long range passes from their midfield and definitely not to that extend of being direct from all over the pitch, that's simply outdated and not really a part of the modern game...

Most crosses last season were done by TAA and Robertson, so 2 full backs from Liverpool are top 1 and top 2 so not really a midfielder involved and despite that Liverpool was 14th in the league when it came down to the sheer amount of long balls played.
Man City the current champions were the worst in the league when it came down to long balls and Man United as the 2nd best team were 19th so second to last so nobody is relying on long balls in order to be successful anymore.

This argument that a deep lying-playmaker must play long range passes every game in order to be effective simply isn't true, Jorginho has been the best in the league when it came down to passes into the final third and progressive passes - meaning he has been effective already, to make many long range passes isn't needed at all in order to be effective in that role and definitely not the main thing for a central midfielder in the PL these days.

So no, in order to win the league we don't need Jorginho to put up long balls every game, the teams that finished above us last season don't care about their central midfielders putting up long balls at all, you seem to have mistaken a top team for the likes of Burnley or West Brom.

[RMH]

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Just look at the teams that have won the league in recent times - Liverpool and Man City don't rely on long range passes from their midfield and definitely not to that extend of being direct from all over the pitch, that's simply outdated and not really a part of the modern game...

Most crosses last season were done by TAA and Robertson, so 2 full backs from Liverpool are top 1 and top 2 so not really a midfielder involved and despite that Liverpool was 14th in the league when it came down to the sheer amount of long balls played.
Man City the current champions were the worst in the league when it came down to long balls and Man United as the 2nd best team were 19th so second to last so nobody is relying on long balls in order to be successful anymore.

This argument that a deep lying-playmaker must play long range passes every game in order to be effective simply isn't true, Jorginho has been the best in the league when it came down to passes into the final third and progressive passes - meaning he has been effective already, to make many long range passes isn't needed at all in order to be effective in that role and definitely not the main thing for a central midfielder in the PL these days.

So no, in order to win the league we don't need Jorginho to put up long balls every game, the teams that finished above us last season don't care about their central midfielders putting up long balls at all, you seem to have mistaken a top team for the likes of Burnley or West Brom.

We did beat Liverpool with long direct passes and if you revisit the match thread you’ll see that most in here lauded Jorginho for his game. The problem is that he does it very sparely for Chelsea and we want to see consistency from him.
Regarding the long passes and not being “modern”, the dippers rely a lot on long balls to space and hope that their front three get to to it. City does not, but they play differently from the dippers.

[ozboy]

2 hours ago, Munkworth said:

 

You guys ignore the penalties.  Half of you would probably rather billy Gilmour was starting. Chelsea supporters  are a weird bunch. 

[Gol15]

49 minutes ago, RMH said:

We did beat Liverpool with long direct passes and if you revisit the match thread you’ll see that most in here lauded Jorginho for his game. The problem is that he does it very sparely for Chelsea and we want to see consistency from him.
Regarding the long passes and not being “modern”, the dippers rely a lot on long balls to space and hope that their front three get to to it. City does not, but they play differently from the dippers.

Liverpool have the full backs putting up crosses and Man City has mainly De Bruyne making things happen for them. How about we get Werner to not miss easy chances and Pulisic creating more chances and stop talking nonsense about Jorginho not being effective enough when he has been one of our most consistent midfielders for the past 3 years? Nobody complains nearly enough of the real problems this constant focus on Jorginho makes no sense after our CL win, Tuchel doesn't care about him not making long range passes.

[Munkunku]

3 hours ago, ozboy said:

You guys ignore the penalties.  Half of you would probably rather billy Gilmour was starting. Chelsea supporters  are a weird bunch. 

He didn’t take a penalty against Belgium?

[royce987]

Top 5 players for Most Distance Covered in the Euros

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by royce987

[The Don Antonio]

On 04/07/2021 at 04:14, SydneyChelsea said:

Pressing is not really the issue, his strength is retaining the ball. Apart from a glaring weakness in that he is unable to chase down most players on a counter-attack, he's pretty good defensively.

It's actually doing something with it, especially against teams that drop deep and concede possession, that he struggles with.

That's 90% of the teams we will face in the Premier League. We won't win the league unless a) he improves his attacking/creative game or b) we replace him with a player who is more capable.

 I don't understand how it is the job of the cdm to penetrate a low block. 

   City destroy teams with Fernandinho or rodri at CDM and they both don't have great attacking attributes. The issue is city have KDB,BERNADO SILVA, FODEN , GUNDOGAN AND MARHEZ  creating chances... 

We need to improve our attacking midfield department and stop blaming jorginho for not being able to penetrate a low block

[The Don Antonio]

On 04/07/2021 at 10:43, just said:

His match up would more likely be Kalvin Phillips who did a real job on him when we played Leeds.

Jorginho wasn't in the game at all.

 

Kalvin Phillips and rice will be matched up with Italys attacking midfielders ( barela and veratti). It will be mount on Jorginho.

But that's if italy beat Spain though

[axman2526]

3 hours ago, The Don Antonio said:

Kalvin Phillips and rice will be matched up with Italys attacking midfielders ( barela and veratti). It will be mount on Jorginho.

But that's if italy beat Spain though

Yes indeed. Though what is it a foregone conclusion England are beating the Danes?

[SydneyChelsea]

5 hours ago, The Don Antonio said:

 I don't understand how it is the job of the cdm to penetrate a low block. 

   City destroy teams with Fernandinho or rodri at CDM and they both don't have great attacking attributes. The issue is city have KDB,BERNADO SILVA, FODEN , GUNDOGAN AND MARHEZ  creating chances... 

We need to improve our attacking midfield department and stop blaming jorginho for not being able to penetrate a low block

Prevention is better than cure. It is not Jorginho's job to break a low block alone but by moving the ball faster and more accurately to prevent a defense forming their block in time.

In our team, Kante + attackers press the opposition in possession to make the ball break further upfield and create attacks before the opposition can gain their defensive shape. Jorginho doesn't need to contribute to this aspect, but he is important in transitioning the ball from our defense to our attack (eg counter-attacking from a corner or a lost possession in our box).

Low block teams need to attack at some point to actually win the game, which brings up opportunities to counter-attack. Making the most of these is crucial and can transform a game. It's something we currently suck at.

Each touch corresponds to around 1s of time. In coaching, elite counterattacks are generally considered to be 8 seconds or less. So adding 2-3 seconds is what takes an elite-level level counterattack to a mediocre one.

Fernandinho and Rodri aren't attacking players but they move the ball faster and more efficiently. They take two touches to do what Jorginho (at his worst) takes three or four. This means the ball gets to KdB et al. in a totally different phase of play and position to where our attackers receive the ball. There were some real notable examples of this - compare Jorginho's performance in Crystal Palace away vs Crystal Palace at home. Both were fairly regulation wins but in the latter game, Jorginho was moving the ball with one-touch or two-touch passing as opposed to requiring three touches just to turn with the ball.

One of Jorginho's flaws in this area, is that he will often move the ball to an adjacent player even when he is free in space. It means that wide options for switching player are not immediately visible or accessible to him. By the time he turns towards them more time has elapsed and the chance loses its quality. Compare this to Fabinho, Henderson, Kroos etc. who are able to quickly assess and seek out counter-attacking options. It's an area of his game that needs to improve. This improved drastically for a time under Tuchel before regressing again in the last quarter of the season, so it's possible he can resolve this with the right coaching, but there are technical aspects (such as body position and turning technique) that are going to be hard to correct at 28 years of age in the context of a top team.