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Jorginho is a Blue

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I’ll not repost all of  @Davey Baby post but I do agree with it almost entirely and would have loved to have posted something similar but 1. Couldn't be bothered and 2. Wouldn’t have posted nearly as well.

i don’t think I’ll ever be Jorginho’s biggest fan but I recognise how important he is to the team and to Franks influence on the game. I think his strength is his availability to receive the ball and get others out of trouble and then to recirculate it quickly and generally this season in a forward direction. He does lack pace and can be shown up badly in some situations when players leave him for dead however his reading of the game means he has a lot of interceptions. 
Probably one of the first names in the team sheet.

 

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3 hours ago, Argo said:

I don't think he's that much different to what he was in the first and final 3rds of last season.

Its just because Lampard's done the awkward thing of keeping Jorginho in the exact same position Sarri did they have to say he's improved because the only other alternative is admit Sarri was right all along.

Jorginho was brilliant in his first few weeks here, maybe even longer if memory serves me. I think I remember his form dipping then it started to go very wrong since the Arsenal game when Jorginho was man marked by Ramsey and playing off him, since then teams were finding a comfortable way to play against us for months. Until the end of the season we started to see Jorginho pick up his form and he was playing very well. 

But you're probably right here Argo, I think we saw this form at the end of last season and dare I say it maybe at the start of last season. 

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2 hours ago, Brutos said:
3 hours ago, Argo said:
I don't think he's that much different to what he was in the first and final 3rds of last season.
Its just because Lampard's done the awkward thing of keeping Jorginho in the exact same position Sarri did they have to say he's improved because the only other alternative is admit Sarri was right all along.

Pretty much this, Lampard has come in and did exactly what Sarri did with Jorginho and but it's awkward to say he doesn't know what he's doing. There is some bias in some people's view if you go back in this thread you can see the comments. He's playing exactly like he did last season its just that some fans and pundits have Lampard glasses on now. They don't factor in new country taking time to adjust and more.

I disagree here, even though you do have a point, it wasn't strictly Jorginho playing awful, it was quite clear he was out of his depth for a few unsettling months last season. 

But I remember on plenty of occasions Jorginho's man marking was abysmal and he wasn't where he was needed to be, I think the pace of the Premier League took some getting used to. This season I've not seen those limitations at all. I even remember in the Arsenal game last season, not the one where we lost, the one where we won 3-2 I think it was, Jorginho was highly praised, however, he was actually at fault for Arsenal's goals and the chances they squandered before halftime, he wasn't getting infront of his man and he was left for dead on Arsenal's counter attacks and wasn't even in position on the set play. 

Defensively he's 100% got better in my eyes. 

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8 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Jorginho was brilliant in his first few weeks here, maybe even longer if memory serves me. I think I remember his form dipping then it started to go very wrong since the Arsenal game when Jorginho was man marked by Ramsey and playing off him, since then teams were finding a comfortable way to play against us for months. Until the end of the season we started to see Jorginho pick up his form and he was playing very well. 

But you're probably right here Argo, I think we saw this form at the end of last season and dare I say it maybe at the start of last season. 

I think when his dip started was after the Everton game when he was ineffective and took off.

But even in his dip I don't think he was particularly bad (apart from isolated circumstances like the Arsenal game you mentioned). One thing I noticed a lot that he did to stop a lot of dangerous turnover situations (like the ones Arsenal repeatedly find themselves in) is he offered himself as an outball if a player was under pressure (even if he was himself) and managed to receive the ball and distribute it to a player in more space.

I do believe he is one of the main reasons we have managed to transfer to this style of football with relitevely little fuss.

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1 hour ago, Argo said:

I explained it pretty poorly, I did mean positions on the pitch and by not much different I mean to the level of his performances. I felt last season he started and ended very well but had that dip in the middle.

However we had the whole argument last season that Sarri was ruining Kante and should play him in his "best position" and now Lampard has decided also to put Kante in a more advanced position with Jorginho Infront of the back four we don't hear a dickiebird, that was mainly what I was getting at.

 

The Kante one is weird. Even today, we hear "expert" pundits continually describing Kante as a holding midfielder. He's never been a holding midfielder in his life. He was never a Makelele, who was the best around at shielding the back four. Previous to last season, Kante had always played in a 2, and he covered every blade of grass. That was his game. Obviously if he was alongside someone like Pogba or Fabregas, he would be covering up for their defensive frailty, but that didn't make him a holding player, or an anchorman, he was never simply stationed in front of the back four. That just never happened.

 

With Sarri we played with a 3, every single game. Kante was never going to be the anchorman. He's a runner. The real debate should have been, not whether he should have been playing in Jorginho's position, but whether RLC should have been playing, either at the expense of Kante or Kovacic. That was the real debate, in my mind. RLC was eventually introduced and we improved, although Kante obviously kept his place in the team when fit, because of all the qualities he brings.

 

As others have said, when Kante becomes available, Lampard has a real selection headache on his hands. Right now, which one of our team would you drop?

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41 minutes ago, goose said:

I’ll not repost all of  @Davey Baby post but I do agree with it almost entirely and would have loved to have posted something similar but 1. Couldn't be bothered and 2. Wouldn’t have posted nearly as well.

 

Thank you goose. You've gone straight on the Christmas card list.

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14 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

The Kante one is weird. Even today, we hear "expert" pundits continually describing Kante as a holding midfielder. He's never been a holding midfielder in his life. He was never a Makelele, who was the best around at shielding the back four. Previous to last season, Kante had always played in a 2, and he covered every blade of grass. That was his game. Obviously if he was alongside someone like Pogba or Fabregas, he would be covering up for their defensive frailty, but that didn't make him a holding player, or an anchorman, he was never simply stationed in front of the back four. That just never happened.

 

With Sarri we played with a 3, every single game. Kante was never going to be the anchorman. He's a runner. The real debate should have been, not whether he should have been playing in Jorginho's position, but whether RLC should have been playing, either at the expense of Kante or Kovacic. That was the real debate, in my mind. RLC was eventually introduced and we improved, although Kante obviously kept his place in the team when fit, because of all the qualities he brings.

 

As others have said, when Kante becomes available, Lampard has a real selection headache on his hands. Right now, which one of our team would you drop?

I think it goes to show what a great job Lampard is doing when we don't miss Kante atall, not only when it's Kovacic in his place but Barkley aswell.

Unpopular opinion but if we get an offer upwards of £100m from Real for a 29 year old Kante who's developing injury issues, we have to strongly consider it in my opinion.

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7 hours ago, Slojo said:

Possibly, but I think getting used to a new league was also a major factor here. 

I can't deny that he seems to have adjusted a little more now but the failure on Sarri's part was that he could not bring the team to play with the movement and tempo he kept talking about. Either the players weren't responding, or he was just using methods that weren't working. 

It's not a coincidence that right from the first game with Lampard there was more quicker passing, more movement, more numbers attacking the opposition area/box. These are things he's talked about and he's delivered. People like to talk about Sarri laying the foundations to Lampard's Chelsea.

Maybe, maybe not, but Sarri failed to deliver what he promised the fans in terms of attacking play. Last season, Chelsea played some of the worst football I've seen from any Chelsea side (so for me that's going back to Vialli)... As bad as Ancelotti's 'bad moment'. Such slow, ponderous build-up where seeing one chance carved out was almost as good as a goal. 

He managed to win the Europa League, down largely to the brilliance of a few individuals and players he initially avoided using. 

For me, the bottom line is Lampard has bought the best out of Jorginho even if part of that would be down to the player acclimatising also. It's clear he's not just playing the same way, imo. He's more authoritative, he's sharper, playing more attacking passes, he seems to be relishing the confidence and responsibility from the manager and he's also making quite a few tackles and defending quite well. 

Does the fact that he has more options and movement around him help? Yes. But again, that's down to the positives of Lampard managing the team.

 

 

 

 

 

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btw, Jorginho has been named Captain for tonight's match vs manure - he will see if he up to the task, because of the youth that is in the side for this match vs manure

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4 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

 

The Kante one is weird. Even today, we hear "expert" pundits continually describing Kante as a holding midfielder. He's never been a holding midfielder in his life. He was never a Makelele, who was the best around at shielding the back four. Previous to last season, Kante had always played in a 2, and he covered every blade of grass. That was his game. Obviously if he was alongside someone like Pogba or Fabregas, he would be covering up for their defensive frailty, but that didn't make him a holding player, or an anchorman, he was never simply stationed in front of the back four. That just never happened.

 

With Sarri we played with a 3, every single game. Kante was never going to be the anchorman. He's a runner. The real debate should have been, not whether he should have been playing in Jorginho's position, but whether RLC should have been playing, either at the expense of Kante or Kovacic. That was the real debate, in my mind. RLC was eventually introduced and we improved, although Kante obviously kept his place in the team when fit, because of all the qualities he brings.

 

As others have said, when Kante becomes available, Lampard has a real selection headache on his hands. Right now, which one of our team would you drop?

Kovacic.

Thank you for asking me Davey

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Fantastic game and pass for Abrahams goal. Not going to blame him for the penalty, that was the most shambolic VAR-decision ever.

Clear and obvious? Clear and obvious dive and not exactly a shock that it was Mike Dean that gave that. Worst referee in the whole wide world.

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Starting to become our Xavi. Hope he enjoys the little break he got and don't let the pen bug him too much.

Needs to improve his forward passing, he already has the vision just lacking a bit of tekkers.

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Here's the hypothetically question for the week.

You are given the choice between playing Jorginho or Kevin de Bryune in our starting line-up. Who do you pick and why?

Edited by just

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Just now, just said:

Here's the hypothetically question for the week.

You are given the choice between playing Jorginho or Kevin de Bryune in our starting line-up. Who do you pick?

Depends who the other 2 players are next to them. 

Both very different players. Id have them both with kante!

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4 minutes ago, big blue said:

Depends who the other 2 players are next to them. 

Both very different players. Id have them both with kante!

Personally I see them as very similar. Neither are fantastic athletes. Neither are blessed with pace. Neither are physically imposing.

Their game is based upon reading of the play and passing ability. 

Edited by just

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Just now, just said:

Personally I see them as very similar. Neither are fantastic athletes. Neither are blessed with pace. Neither are physically imposing.

Physically they are similar,  but i think they are quite different in terms how they play. 

Jorginho is more of a deep playmaker, setting the tempo, making interceptions. De bruyne is an attacking midfielder for me, looks to play that final killer ball, and gets in the box. 

 

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11 minutes ago, just said:

Here's the hypothetically question for the week.

You are given the choice between playing Jorginho or Kevin de Bryune in our starting line-up. Who do you pick and why?

It's tough but i'd have to choose Jorginho, purely because of two reasons.

1. For Frank's football i genuinely believe he's the most important player and that may show vs Palace next week when he's not there, i think without him we won't control the middle nearly as well.

2. We have some top quality youth coming through in the position KDB would play.

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Jorginho this season vs last season is a good example of how just a manager/system alone can be the difference between how a player performs on a team. I think Sarri making Jorginho the linchpin of his system last season kind of suffocated his playing style. Him adapting to league also plays a role in his improvement.

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3 hours ago, big blue said:

Physically they are similar,  but i think they are quite different in terms how they play. 

Jorginho is more of a deep playmaker, setting the tempo, making interceptions. De bruyne is an attacking midfielder for me, looks to play that final killer ball, and gets in the box. 

 

De Bruyne is also the conduit and sets the tempo for City. Very similar players in terms of their physical attributes (not a lot) and skill-sets IMO, though I 'd agree KDB seeks to have more of an impact in the final third.

Personally I would pick Jorginho based on his work rate and leadership qualities.

Last season I probably wouldn't have picked Jorginho in front of Danny Drinkwater!

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I love Jorginho but he doesn’t come close to KDB. KDB can do everything in midfield and is the best player in the prem in my eyes.

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He has being the best player this season so far in my opinion. Its not just his passing but his interceptions and tackling have being superb. Absolutely vital to the team and a great leader with positive energy around him. 

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