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Jorginho is a Blue

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Just quietly, and with the caveat it was his first game back in a while, but I think with Kante coming back in for Jorginho on the weekend our midfield looked worse.

A sentence I never thought I would type or even read this time last year. Granted this certainly wouldn't be the case against more lively opposition, but still, it's going to be tough to leave one of our midfield 3 out each game.

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6 minutes ago, Jonty said:

Just quietly, and with the caveat it was his first game back in a while, but I think with Kante coming back in for Jorginho on the weekend our midfield looked worse.

A sentence I never thought I would type or even read this time last year. Granted this certainly wouldn't be the case against more lively opposition, but still, it's going to be tough to leave one of our midfield 3 out each game.

We were moving the ball around much slower, Jorginho's presence in the midfield cannot be overstated enough, he may not be the fastest but his organisation his brilliant. He's like a manager in there telling us to pass quicker when needed and telling the defenders to come up when we are outplaying the opposition. 

The first 45 minutes we were very stale against Palace, all over them but we created nothing, it was similar to the Newcastle game. But I think if Jorginho was there we would've been moving the ball around quicker, it wasn't until halftime you could see the difference in our final play after Frank had a word with them. 

I thought Kante had a solid game, but he couldn't really do anything substantial in that type of game, he's not really the player who you rely on to find openings when the other side is parking the bus, Jorginho would've tried to play the right ball and dictated the tempo. 

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30 minutes ago, Slojo said:

He's like a manager in there telling us to pass quicker when needed and telling the defenders to come up when we are outplaying the opposition. 

I like to think of him as a conductor in the Chelsea orchestra. I said to my mate at the game in the first half that we were really missing Jorgi-boy in our midfield. 

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1 hour ago, Jonty said:

Just quietly, and with the caveat it was his first game back in a while, but I think with Kante coming back in for Jorginho on the weekend our midfield looked worse.

A sentence I never thought I would type or even read this time last year. Granted this certainly wouldn't be the case against more lively opposition, but still, it's going to be tough to leave one of our midfield 3 out each game.

 

I thought he made it better, despite the fact it wasn't his finest game. We were far more secure, far less vulnerable on the counter. They never looked remotely like scoring apart from one set piece. Yes the tempo slowed as the first half progressed and we started to get frustrated by Palace, but it was a really impressive performance overall, especially considering we have struggled at home, struggled with Jorginho in the side by the way. Second half we were really good and we controlled the game throughout. Jorginho isn't Pirlo, though some people may talk about him as if he were. He's a good player but Pirlo he ain't. Pirlo was more skilful, had more vision, was better at shooting and passing, and could control the tempo of a football game. He could simply do things Jorginho can't. I like Jorginho but if it's 2 from 3 I don't think his place is assured.

 

Edit: Palace have been very good on the road this year and they are very hard to break down. That wasn't an easy game by any means, though we made it look like it was.

Edited by Davey Baby

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I refer everyone to my post above, which was written after the Palace game a month ago. Once again we see a midfield 2 of Kova and Kante and once again we look far more secure, far less open, and we play far more impressively. As I've said many times and I'll repeat again here, Jorginho is a good player, he appears to be a popular player, and he evidently has a good attitude, but he's overrated by many on here and our best XI doesn't include him.

Edited by Davey Baby

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3 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

I refer everyone to my post above, which was written after the Palace game a month ago. Once again we see a midfield 2 of Kova and Kante and once again we look far more secure, far less open, and we play far more impressively. As I've said many times and I'll repeat again here, Jorginho is a good player, he appears to be a popular player, and he evidently has a good attitude, but he's overrated by many on here and our best XI doesn't include him.

That's only now after the international break since his role was diminished by Lampard. Before that he was our key player in midfield and the best passer in the league in his first Premier league season.

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Just now, Davey Baby said:

I refer everyone to my post above, which was written after the Palace game a month ago. Once again we see a midfield 2 of Kova and Kante and once again we look far more secure, far less open, and we play far more impressively. As I've said many times and I'll repeat again here, Jorginho is a good player, he appears to be a popular player, and he evidently has a good attitude, but he's overrated by many on here and our best XI doesn't include him.

I don't think he is overrated, he's had an excellent season so far, but he's also competing with two other excellent midfielders. Like you say though, we were far less open in midfield and I don't think that is something we can ignore. As much as I have enjoyed watching Jorginho play this season, even going as far as to say he was our player of the season a month ago, I don't think we can give up that defensive shield that Kante provides.

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5 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

I don't think he is overrated, he's had an excellent season so far, but he's also competing with two other excellent midfielders. Like you say though, we were far less open in midfield and I don't think that is something we can ignore. As much as I have enjoyed watching Jorginho play this season, even going as far as to say he was our player of the season a month ago, I don't think we can give up that defensive shield that Kante provides.

Couple that with Mount’s intense press and attacking impetus, Jorginho might be the odd man out in our midfield.

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It seems harsh on him, as he’s a top player, but for now the Kova-Kante partnership is indeed hard to argue with, and the 2-man midfield does seem to suit the players and overall team shape better. Still, there will be plenty of opportunities for Jorginho to play with inevitable injuries, suspensions, and the need to rest players. Kova may be due a rest soon, having played the most hours of all of them. 

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I dont think its a case of we need to stick with a established 2 because we can offer sufficient game time to all 3 of them. I think all are operating at incredibly high levels and all bring a different attribute to the game and therefore selection will probably depend on who we are playing.

Once RLC is back Mount and RLC can be rotated in a similar manner for the 3rd midfield position.

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11 hours ago, Davey Baby said:

I refer everyone to my post above, which was written after the Palace game a month ago. Once again we see a midfield 2 of Kova and Kante and once again we look far more secure, far less open, and we play far more impressively. As I've said many times and I'll repeat again here, Jorginho is a good player, he appears to be a popular player, and he evidently has a good attitude, but he's overrated by many on here and our best XI doesn't include him.

The teams definitely better balance with Kante, Mount and one of Kovacic/Jorginho. For me we’re actually lucky to have both Kovacic and Jorginho playing a million miles better than last season. It’s a nice problem to have. 

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It's a myth that we've been open in midfield this season when Jorginho has played. Jorginho was brilliant for us in our run of 6 premier league wins in a row, and we've bossed the midfield area in every game we've played this season. Our weakness this season has been set pieces and crosses into the box.

We're just lucky to have some brilliant options in the middle of the park at the moment. Jorginho deserved the rest not because he's been poor (he's been really good), it's just that Kovacic, Kante and Mount have also been very very good.

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3 hours ago, DannyVblue said:

It's a myth that we've been open in midfield this season when Jorginho has played.

 

Utd away. Leicester at home. Norwich away. Sheffield Utd at home. Wolves away. Ajax at home. Valencia away.

 

Did you see any of those matches?

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5 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

Utd away. Leicester at home. Norwich away. Sheffield Utd at home. Wolves away. Ajax at home. Valencia away.

 

Did you see any of those matches?

Certainly did. How many of those matches did we lose Davey? We won the midfield battle in all those games except Ajax and Valencia which were both crazy games with no control from either team.. Jorginho was actually absolutely brilliant against Wolves away, I don't know why you've put that in there. Utd was our only loss in those 7 games which was our first game under Lamps and it was probably naive tactics on our part in that match.

 

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33 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

Certainly did. How many of those matches did we lose Davey? We won the midfield battle in all those games except Ajax and Valencia which were both crazy games with no control from either team.. Jorginho was actually absolutely brilliant against Wolves away, I don't know why you've put that in there. Utd was our only loss in those 7 games which was our first game under Lamps and it was probably naive tactics on our part in that match.

 

 

I'm aware of the results, I'm just questioning your assertion that we weren't open. We were very open. Many of those games resembled basketball games. Yes we were the better team in most of those games and may have won the midfield battle but we were open as hell. I'm not saying Jorginho didn't impress in those games, he has played well this season, of course he has, but it's noticeable that against Palace and Villa, the two games where we've paired Kante and Kova in a 2, we've looked far less open and far more secure. That's all I'm saying. Kante looked far more his old self last night, occupying the spaces he likes, and I just think we're better balanced that way. We're just a bit soft and too easy to score against and against the best sides that will cost us.

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36 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

I'm aware of the results, I'm just questioning your assertion that we weren't open. We were very open. Many of those games resembled basketball games. Yes we were the better team in most of those games and may have won the midfield battle but we were open as hell. I'm not saying Jorginho didn't impress in those games, he has played well this season, of course he has, but it's noticeable that against Palace and Villa, the two games where we've paired Kante and Kova in a 2, we've looked far less open and far more secure. That's all I'm saying. Kante looked far more his old self last night, occupying the spaces he likes, and I just think we're better balanced that way. We're just a bit soft and too easy to score against and against the best sides that will cost us.

We weren't open against Norwich or Wolves, but we were in the others and Jorginho was indeed playing. To blame Jorginho for our openness though is unfair, it's not one players fault. We're an attacking team now and are creating more chances and playing better football, but when we're bombing forward it also means that you're going to leave more spaces at the back. I didn't think we looked any more solid in the middle last night than we did when we beat Brighton 2-0 for example. Or against Ajax away, our best performance of the season.

Edited by DannyVblue

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44 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

I'm aware of the results, I'm just questioning your assertion that we weren't open. We were very open. Many of those games resembled basketball games. Yes we were the better team in most of those games and may have won the midfield battle but we were open as hell. I'm not saying Jorginho didn't impress in those games, he has played well this season, of course he has, but it's noticeable that against Palace and Villa, the two games where we've paired Kante and Kova in a 2, we've looked far less open and far more secure. That's all I'm saying. Kante looked far more his old self last night, occupying the spaces he likes, and I just think we're better balanced that way. We're just a bit soft and too easy to score against and against the best sides that will cost us.

Palace and Villa are teams that we should have dominated. They are lower teams and yet it looked like they had a chance to get away with something for a long time. Kante just recently came from injury and he already is dominating again, he already scored as well but it took him a few games to come back to full form. 


You can't compare how the team looks now and how it was in the very start of the season when everything was new, your examples of ManUtd away, Leicester home, Norwich away - are pretty much invalid. Same with games that are after the international break, Lampard already diminished his role and he didn't complete 90 min since then. So the only game left that you point out is Wolves away, that game Jorginho dominated and we won with 5 goals scored, Jorginho had an assist.

How can you be so wrong? Why don't you point out that Kovacic made us very open against Man City? Ah because he can't do any wrong, I got that point from before...

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24 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Palace and Villa are teams that we should have dominated. They are lower teams and yet it looked like they had a chance to get away with something for a long time. Kante just recently came from injury and he already is dominating again, he already scored as well but it took him a few games to come back to full form. 


You can't compare how the team looks now and how it was in the very start of the season when everything was new, your examples of ManUtd away, Leicester home, Norwich away - are pretty much invalid. Same with games that are after the international break, Lampard already diminished his role and he didn't complete 90 min since then. So the only game left that you point out is Wolves away, that game Jorginho dominated and we won with 5 goals scored, Jorginho had an assist.

How can you be so wrong? Why don't you point out that Kovacic made us very open against Man City? Ah because he can't do any wrong, I got that point from before...

He’s a tool, look through his posts he absoutely loves slating Jorginho apart from when he was playing so well he had to say he was doing ok through gritted teeth but still managed to criticise him and say people are biased to how good he actually is but acts like Kovacic is the best midfielder defensively in the world and he’s totally justified in telling us all for ages what a liability Jorginho is because we beat villa at home 2-1 with Kova and Kante. Posts are totally agenda driven. 

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Just now, I Am Gay 4 Diegod said:

He’s a tool, look through his posts he absoutely loves slating Jorginho apart from when he was playing so well he had to say he was doing ok through gritted teeth but still managed to criticise him and say people are biased to how good he actually is but acts like Kovacic is the best midfielder defensively in the world and he’s totally justified in telling us all for ages what a liability Jorginho is because we beat villa at home 2-1 with Kova and Kante. Posts are totally agenda driven. 

He most likely sees Kovacic as the Man of the match against Villa, even though Kante was the key in defensive tasks and had more influence in our attacking phase, even though Tammy scored and assisted, even though Mount scored the winning goal...and even though Kovacic did against Villa what Jorginho has been doing for 1.5 season already. But if that had been Jorginho he would say he was below average! I thought some people were just overwhelmingly biased but you're right this is all agenda driven.

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46 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Palace and Villa are teams that we should have dominated. They are lower teams and yet it looked like they had a chance to get away with something for a long time. Kante just recently came from injury and he already is dominating again, he already scored as well but it took him a few games to come back to full form. 


You can't compare how the team looks now and how it was in the very start of the season when everything was new, your examples of ManUtd away, Leicester home, Norwich away - are pretty much invalid. Same with games that are after the international break, Lampard already diminished his role and he didn't complete 90 min since then. So the only game left that you point out is Wolves away, that game Jorginho dominated and we won with 5 goals scored, Jorginho had an assist.

How can you be so wrong? Why don't you point out that Kovacic made us very open against Man City? Ah because he can't do any wrong, I got that point from before...

 

You're clearly upset, as I knew you would be. We've seen in the past how touchy you are about Jorginho. Your post is a nonsense, because I was replying to the assertion that we hadn't been open in games Jorginho had played in, and I merely gave a few examples. Whether they were at the start of the season or anything else is irrelevant, I was merely showing that we had been open in games he had played in, very open indeed. You can come up with all the excuses you want, about it being early in the season, or international breaks, or diminished roles, but really and truly you're just talking a load of balderdash in my opinion, and besides, what do we have to go on other than the games we've watched? You and your chum above needn't be so offended, we all support the same club, and we all want us to win, we just have different opinions about different players that's all. It really isn't the big deal you think it is. You think Jorginho is the reincarnation of Christ and I think he's a good footballer who isn't quite good enough to be in our best XI, and that's it, it really isn't any bigger than that, and you don't need to lose any sleep over it. Last night the Villa manager praised Kante after the game, saying he thought there were three of them on the pitch. This has a lot to do with Jorginho's absence if you ask me. Kante was really playing at his best and in the right spaces. Kova and Kante is my preferred midfield pair, and we were really good last night and should have won by more, and we were far less open than usual. These are the facts but you can come up with any baloney you like.

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53 minutes ago, I Am Gay 4 Diegod said:

He’s a tool, look through his posts he absoutely loves slating Jorginho apart from when he was playing so well he had to say he was doing ok through gritted teeth but still managed to criticise him and say people are biased to how good he actually is but acts like Kovacic is the best midfielder defensively in the world and he’s totally justified in telling us all for ages what a liability Jorginho is because we beat villa at home 2-1 with Kova and Kante. Posts are totally agenda driven. 

 

44 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He most likely sees Kovacic as the Man of the match against Villa, even though Kante was the key in defensive tasks and had more influence in our attacking phase, even though Tammy scored and assisted, even though Mount scored the winning goal...and even though Kovacic did against Villa what Jorginho has been doing for 1.5 season already. But if that had been Jorginho he would say he was below average! I thought some people were just overwhelmingly biased but you're right this is all agenda driven.


LOL of course you two would get along, that says it all. 

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23 minutes ago, Davey Baby said:

 

You're clearly upset, as I knew you would be. We've seen in the past how touchy you are about Jorginho. Your post is a nonsense, because I was replying to the assertion that we hadn't been open in games Jorginho had played in, and I merely gave a few examples. Whether they were at the start of the season or anything else is irrelevant, I was merely showing that we had been open in games he had played in, very open indeed. You can come up with all the excuses you want, about it being early in the season, or international breaks, or diminished roles, but really and truly you're just talking a load of balderdash in my opinion, and besides, what do we have to go on other than the games we've watched? You and your chum above needn't be so offended, we all support the same club, and we all want us to win, we just have different opinions about different players that's all. It really isn't the big deal you think it is. You think Jorginho is the reincarnation of Christ and I think he's a good footballer who isn't quite good enough to be in our best XI, and that's it, it really isn't any bigger than that, and you don't need to lose any sleep over it. Last night the Villa manager praised Kante after the game, saying he thought there were three of them on the pitch. This has a lot to do with Jorginho's absence if you ask me. Kante was really playing at his best and in the right spaces. Kova and Kante is my preferred midfield pair, and we were really good last night and should have won by more, and we were far less open than usual. These are the facts but you can come up with any baloney you like.

Why don't you just accept you're a Kovacic fanboy Davey, real Chelsea fans want their favourite players to do better than the ones they don't rate. 

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