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Mateo Kovačić

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16 hours ago, Brutos said:

Some of the critism our players get is mind numbing to be honest, unless a player disrespect the club I will always encourage him until he leaves the club, yes I may get Heating in the moment but I would never go to the lengths some do on here jesus.
 

You must be at the wind up with some of the sh*te you’ve posted about Lampard over the last couple of weeks? I’m not sure there’s anyone on the board as negative as you at the moment.

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4 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Fair play, I must admit on first viewing I thought it looked it was under hit but seeing it on MOTD it wasn’t, it was a decent pass but hardly Fabregas against Burnley.

 

It is a bit of a stretch to make out that goal was made by his assist, it was Abraham who made the most of it to open up the opportunity to get the strike away. He won the match, not Kova’s pass.

 

I’ve always said he’s a decent player I just think folk are going overboard with how good he is this season because of how average he was last season.

My thing is, everybody’s argument is the same as the initial one you made - “he doesn’t score or assist” or “he doesn’t do anything significant offensively”.  He assists the game winning goal, and it’s still not enough for some people.  I agree it was a great job by Tammy, but if Kovacic hits the ball through rather than to feet, Tammy would have been offside.  It was just as good from Kovacic as it was from Tammy.

He also had multiple successful take ons and 4 tackles.  I’m not always big on stats, but stats have been the main argument against him.  All this in addition to his normal skill set of playing out of tight spaces and controlled dribbling.

And nobody’s assist will ever be as good as Fabregas vs Burnley 😃

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1 hour ago, mwblue10 said:

My thing is, everybody’s argument is the same as the initial one you made - “he doesn’t score or assist” or “he doesn’t do anything significant offensively”.  He assists the game winning goal, and it’s still not enough for some people.  I agree it was a great job by Tammy, but if Kovacic hits the ball through rather than to feet, Tammy would have been offside.  It was just as good from Kovacic as it was from Tammy.

He also had multiple successful take ons and 4 tackles.  I’m not always big on stats, but stats have been the main argument against him.  All this in addition to his normal skill set of playing out of tight spaces and controlled dribbling.

And nobody’s assist will ever be as good as Fabregas vs Burnley 😃

I’m not sure where you get the idea he’d be offside, the ball would have been released at the exact same time just with more weight on the pass. 

 

As I said, I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t think he’s as good as a lot of people are making out he is - certainly not with him and Jorginho as they’re being ripped through time and time again which is why our defence are always so exposed. Kante is the first name on the team sheet, so then it’s between jorginho and Kovacic for the other spot and for me Jorginho still has the edge on that. (I’m obviously talking about the two deeper CM’s)

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6 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I’m not sure where you get the idea he’d be offside, the ball would have been released at the exact same time just with more weight on the pass. 

 

As I said, I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t think he’s as good as a lot of people are making out he is - certainly not with him and Jorginho as they’re being ripped through time and time again which is why our defence are always so exposed. Kante is the first name on the team sheet, so then it’s between jorginho and Kovacic for the other spot and for me Jorginho still has the edge on that. (I’m obviously talking about the two deeper CM’s)

When we expect to dominate a game Jorginho may be the better bet yet when defensive think Kovacic offers more defensive abilities.

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Posted (edited)

Kovacic is clearly one of those players who divides opinion amongst fans, on the 1 hand it is undeniable he possesses great potential and has the ability to offer us control and drive from midfield and alternatively he may seem better than he actually is due to the recent blunders in buying 2 absolute liabilities in Drinkwater & Bakayako.

In basic terms:

Does he make our First 11 currently? Yes

Does he make our first 11 when everyone is fit? No (RLC Replaces him)

Would we have purchased him if we didnt have a transfer Ban? No (We most likely would've gone for someone to offer more threat from midfield) 

Does he make our Squad Stronger? Yes

Did we pay market rate for him? Yes

Overall I think he is a good addition to our squad and considering RLC's back issues I think he will get plenty of minutes throughout the season. He seems a little more settled this season and I think with Lampard he has been given a little more license to drive forward with the ball which I think will help him improve in the attacking third.

Edited by Imran_CFC

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I’m not sure where you get the idea he’d be offside, the ball would have been released at the exact same time just with more weight on the pass. 

 

As I said, I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t think he’s as good as a lot of people are making out he is - certainly not with him and Jorginho as they’re being ripped through time and time again which is why our defence are always so exposed. Kante is the first name on the team sheet, so then it’s between jorginho and Kovacic for the other spot and for me Jorginho still has the edge on that. (I’m obviously talking about the two deeper CM’s)

I probably worded that poorly, what I was trying to get at was that if they weren't on the same page with the pass, then it very likely could have been offside.  The point I'm looking to make is that it wasn't all Tammy's doing, it was a tandem effort for the winning goal.

Agreed that Kante should and will be the first name on the team sheet in midfield, I just don't think that we should devalue Kovacic's performance because the player normally in that role is world class.  Credit where it's due, and Kovacic definitely deserves credit for an excellent showing on Saturday.

Edit: The only reason I'm harping on this is because the entire argument against Kovacic has been "what does he do?  Doesn't score, doesn't assist, not good going forward, bad decisions in the opposition half, nothing significant, etc" and now when he puts in a great shift and chips in an assist, it STILL isn't good enough.  I've posted on this before, but if anyone expected Kovacic to be the player that comes in and scores a bunch of goals and registers numerous assists, you were destined to be disappointed from the start.  If he gets something like 5 or more goals/assists combined in the league this season, that would be just fine.

Edited by mwblue10

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Kovacic reminds me a bit of Iniesta. He doesnt score and assist much but was integral to the way Barcelona and Spain played. Kovacic will never be as good as Iniesta of course, but he is a player of similar silk.  

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18 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I’m not sure where you get the idea he’d be offside, the ball would have been released at the exact same time just with more weight on the pass. 

 

As I said, I’m not saying he’s a bad player. I just don’t think he’s as good as a lot of people are making out he is - certainly not with him and Jorginho as they’re being ripped through time and time again which is why our defence are always so exposed. Kante is the first name on the team sheet, so then it’s between jorginho and Kovacic for the other spot and for me Jorginho still has the edge on that. (I’m obviously talking about the two deeper CM’s)

 

Most of the goals we conceded were due to Azpi or Zouma sleeping or making bad calls, not because of Jorg or Kova being ripped through. There's no midfielder in the world that can stop his defenders from playing the opposition onside. Judging from your posts in Azpis thread you find it too harsh to criticize Azpi for his direct mistakes while you are at the same time blaming the midfield for the defensive weakness? Also, your first reaction to Kovas Norwich game was that he doesn't do anything significant despite putting in some good work, at least one crucial tackle (he snuffed out the Norwich counter attack after Azpi got fouled in their box) and an assist.

Our defense is bad at the moment, which was to be expected since Zouma is too young, Azpi is too old, Christensen is not a natural leader and Emerson is too far up the pitch for offensive reasons. Which is fine imo, they need time to get to know each other better so they can react to each others weaknesses. I just wish people would stop blaming the midfielders for it, especially since we are bleeding goals from wide attacks, not from the center.

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3 hours ago, Vagabond said:

 

Most of the goals we conceded were due to Azpi or Zouma sleeping or making bad calls, not because of Jorg or Kova being ripped through. There's no midfielder in the world that can stop his defenders from playing the opposition onside. Judging from your posts in Azpis thread you find it too harsh to criticize Azpi for his direct mistakes while you are at the same time blaming the midfield for the defensive weakness? Also, your first reaction to Kovas Norwich game was that he doesn't do anything significant despite putting in some good work, at least one crucial tackle (he snuffed out the Norwich counter attack after Azpi got fouled in their box) and an assist.

Our defense is bad at the moment, which was to be expected since Zouma is too young, Azpi is too old, Christensen is not a natural leader and Emerson is too far up the pitch for offensive reasons. Which is fine imo, they need time to get to know each other better so they can react to each others weaknesses. I just wish people would stop blaming the midfielders for it, especially since we are bleeding goals from wide attacks, not from the center.

Boom. This is spot on.

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18 hours ago, mwblue10 said:

I probably worded that poorly, what I was trying to get at was that if they weren't on the same page with the pass, then it very likely could have been offside.  The point I'm looking to make is that it wasn't all Tammy's doing, it was a tandem effort for the winning goal.

Agreed that Kante should and will be the first name on the team sheet in midfield, I just don't think that we should devalue Kovacic's performance because the player normally in that role is world class.  Credit where it's due, and Kovacic definitely deserves credit for an excellent showing on Saturday.

Edit: The only reason I'm harping on this is because the entire argument against Kovacic has been "what does he do?  Doesn't score, doesn't assist, not good going forward, bad decisions in the opposition half, nothing significant, etc" and now when he puts in a great shift and chips in an assist, it STILL isn't good enough.  I've posted on this before, but if anyone expected Kovacic to be the player that comes in and scores a bunch of goals and registers numerous assists, you were destined to be disappointed from the start.  If he gets something like 5 or more goals/assists combined in the league this season, that would be just fine.

I think I understand your point but it was definitely more Tammy than Kova is all I’m saying.

 

He did play well & I'm not denying that, all I’m saying is that I think some of the praise that he’s been getting is over the top. I like him as a player and he’s certainly grown on me this season but I still don’t see him as the world beater that some seem to. He’s 4th in line for CM when everyone’s fit IMO. Behind Kante, Jorginho and RLC.

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10 hours ago, Vagabond said:

 

Most of the goals we conceded were due to Azpi or Zouma sleeping or making bad calls, not because of Jorg or Kova being ripped through. There's no midfielder in the world that can stop his defenders from playing the opposition onside. Judging from your posts in Azpis thread you find it too harsh to criticize Azpi for his direct mistakes while you are at the same time blaming the midfield for the defensive weakness? Also, your first reaction to Kovas Norwich game was that he doesn't do anything significant despite putting in some good work, at least one crucial tackle (he snuffed out the Norwich counter attack after Azpi got fouled in their box) and an assist.

Our defense is bad at the moment, which was to be expected since Zouma is too young, Azpi is too old, Christensen is not a natural leader and Emerson is too far up the pitch for offensive reasons. Which is fine imo, they need time to get to know each other better so they can react to each others weaknesses. I just wish people would stop blaming the midfielders for it, especially since we are bleeding goals from wide attacks, not from the center.

My point with Azpilicueta is people are scapegoating him. He deserves criticism for his mistakes but some people on this board are clutching at straws to blame him for any possible goal that we concede. Do you honestly think that a central midfield with Kova - Jorg is solid defensively? Because our record of conceding goals would show it’s not. Defending is a team game, the same way that Azpilicueta gets slaughtered for not contributing to the attacking phase.

 

I never spoke about his specific performance against Norwich, I was referencing the over the top (in my opinion) praise he gets, personally think amount has been the more exciting in all honesty.

 

Zouma is too young? That’s bollocks. He’s f**king 25 in a couple of months. The defence obviously need to do better (hopefully Rudiger & James coming back will help) but as I’ve already said it’s a team game so the midfield have to do their part and when we don’t have Kante in there it weakens us significantly.

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Those going OTT over his performaces this season have glossed over how bad he was when he came on against Leicester.  It was every bit as poor as most of his performances from last season!  However, he had a fine game last week and if he keeps that level up he'll soon become a popular player with the vast majority of fans.  Chelsea fans even chanted Jorginho''s name last week and we know he was hardy Mr popular last season. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

My point with Azpilicueta is people are scapegoating him. He deserves criticism for his mistakes but some people on this board are clutching at straws to blame him for any possible goal that we concede. Do you honestly think that a central midfield with Kova - Jorg is solid defensively? Because our record of conceding goals would show it’s not. Defending is a team game, the same way that Azpilicueta gets slaughtered for not contributing to the attacking phase.

 

I never spoke about his specific performance against Norwich, I was referencing the over the top (in my opinion) praise he gets, personally think amount has been the more exciting in all honesty.

 

Zouma is too young? That’s bollocks. He’s f**king 25 in a couple of months. The defence obviously need to do better (hopefully Rudiger & James coming back will help) but as I’ve already said it’s a team game so the midfield have to do their part and when we don’t have Kante in there it weakens us significantly.


I'm not interested in blaming individuals in a team game either, but I believe our defense is looking terrible mostly because of our defense itself, not the midfield. Jorginho and Azpi both don't have the pace but are experienced and intelligent enough to compensate with positioning (I'll overlook Azpis mistakes for the sake of this argument) and passing the ball around safely. The problem in posession is that Zouma is panicking under the pressure because of his inexperience on such a high level (this is what meant with "too young"). But I have to say despite that I feel quite safe in posession and this will only get better in time, we also held our own against Liverpools high press not too long ago.

To me the real problem is our defensive play out of posession, since quick counter attacks make us look like amateurs at times. The reasons for this are the same I mentioned above; Azpi&Jorg lacking pace while a tandem of Christensen and Zouma is not ready yet to compensate for that with smart positioning/decision making. I agree that our defensive stability will massively improve when Rudiger comes back if Azpi can stop making mistakes. Kante has to play obviously and will provide additional stability, but I don't feel we need him as much defensively as many people think we do.

Fair enough, Mount had a very good game as well imo (I had Tammy as MOTM with both Kova and Mount as honourable mentions in the matchthread). Just because people are praising Mateo doesn't mean Mason played worse, the way he cut inside for his goal was very impressive. However, you can read through this thread: many fans were opposed to Kovas transfer. According to one poster he had 2 good games in total last season, another was claiming it was only about 20 good minutes and not worth a buy. Compare that to the delirium our fanbase got into everytime RLC or CHO did anything positive in a game last season (apparently they are both world class already) the term "over the top" becomes very relative.

Edited by Vagabond

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On 27/08/2019 at 16:34, GhostOfDembaBa said:

I don't think most are going overboard. 

He's doing better than he was but that wasn't much of a standard to beat in all honesty.

A little bit of praise where it's due. That's all. 

Agree entirely. Think we are seeing more from many of our midfielders, including Kovacic, which is encouraging. Lampard effect perhaps? Think and hope there is more to come from him

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42 minutes ago, Tony Tone said:

Agree entirely. Think we are seeing more from many of our midfielders, including Kovacic, which is encouraging. Lampard effect perhaps? Think and hope there is more to come from him

Pah what would a fat plodder like Lampard know about playing in midfield 🙂

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4 minutes ago, Bonzodog29 said:

Pah what would a fat plodder like Lampard know about playing in midfield 🙂

If only Scotty Canham was here so they could all reap the benefits. 😛

 

(No disrespect to Canham, tbf, it wasn't him in that conference.)

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Kovacic played well today, though he is still leaving his zone, which hurts Chelsea’s shape. I do think that, over time, that will fix itself. 

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He is just another guy hurt by Jorginho's presence. Obviously super talanted, good hustler, good speed, superb runs through lines, nice tackler, hard one to move. Yet out of his position. He's not a passer, not a shooter, not a scorer, but he has to do all these things because the nonsense with Jorginho contunues. We've hurt Kante, now we are hurting Kovacic. Wondering for how long. Jorginho brings absolutely nothing to this team. Last year, under so-called Sarri ball? Arguable. But now? Terrible. 

Edited by Droopy

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3 minutes ago, Droopy said:

He is just another guy hurt by Jorginho's presence. Obviously super talanted, good hustler, good speed, superb runs through lines, nice tackler, hard one to move. Yet out of his position. He's not a passer, not a shooter, not a scorer, but he has to do all these things because the nonsense with Jorginho contunues. We've hurt Kante, now we are hurting Kovacic. Wondering for how long. Jorginho brings absolutely nothing to this team. Last year, under so-called Sarri ball? Arguable. But now? Terrible. 

He was all that his whole career, decent speed but not great, good tackler but not great, good dribbler but not great, not a passer, not a shooter, not a scorer...Don't blame another player for how average Kova is overall, good at many things but doesn't excel at anything, no end product.

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