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Sarri's system, Jorginho and our progress


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OK, if that's what you think.  I think they were under the cosh, and all they could come up with towards the end was punt it away as far as possible.  There was a hell of a lot of last-ditch defending as well.  I think you might be down-playing the teams performance .

 

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We won't know really how well Sarri's system will work here, until we have a striker capable of actually scoring goals on a regular basis. Hazard as false 9 is clearly not the answer, but neither are Morata or Giroud.

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23 minutes ago, shedpensioner said:

So last season when Conte wanted his signings he was a c**t & needed to get on with his job! This season let’s throw an open chequebook at Sarri?

Like it was with Conte it’s up to Sarri to get the best out of the players he currently has.

Conte said as soon as we won the title with him that our squad wasn't good enough to go into the next season, it needed depth and quality.

What he got was crap. The fact that Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Morata, Zappacosta are all getting moved on already speaks volumes. 

Sarri's come in and given a £60m midfielder viewed central to his system to make it all work (something Conte never got) plus allowed to bring in Kovacic despite us already being stacked in midfield. 

You want to see your manager being backed but it frustrates me that we have this history of not properly backing an already successful manager, sacking them and then giving the new coach what the old one was asking for. 

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22 minutes ago, shedpensioner said:

Yes, I genuinely think that they took their foot off the pedal, they have a massive game at the weekend & they had the lead. Their pressing wasn’t nearly as intense as it has been all season, I think they had gears to go, whereas we were full tilt.

They sat deep to deny Willian/Hazard/CHO space. And it worked because we were limited to long shots, we didn't have a cutting edge.

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36 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

OK, if that's what you think.  I think they were under the cosh, and all they could come up with towards the end was punt it away as far as possible.  There was a hell of a lot of last-ditch defending as well.  I think you might be down-playing the teams performance .

 

I just think that with the lack of striker & a midfield playmaker that doesn’t hurt the opposition, we’re easy to play against.

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8 minutes ago, shedpensioner said:

I just think that with the lack of striker & a midfield playmaker that doesn’t hurt the opposition, we’re easy to play against.

I don't disagree, but that wasn't what we started off about, was it?

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And I think Spuds had no choice in the matter, they got dominated.  That's the beauty and horror of football, two people can watch the exact same match and come to  directly opposite opinions about what they have just seen.

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2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

You want to see your manager being backed but it frustrates me that we have this history of not properly backing an already successful manager, sacking them and then giving the new coach what the old one was asking for. 

It's not as straight forward as that.

As successful as Conte was on the trophy front he didn't seem to have a serious plan beyond winning now, it's hard to go fully in on a manager who doesn't have a clear vision and direction. Even if Sarri flops on the results front he will leave behind a clear sustainable blueprint for others to pick up from.

There's a reason managers like Klopp, Pep and Sarri tend to be "backed" while the likes of Jose, Conte and Rafa don't.

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3 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's not as straight forward as that.

As successful as Conte was on the trophy front he didn't seem to have a serious plan beyond winning now, it's hard to go fully in on a manager who doesn't have a clear vision and direction. Even if Sarri flops on the results front he will leave behind a clear sustainable blueprint for others to pick up from.

There's a reason managers like Klopp, Pep and Sarri tend to be "backed" while the likes of Jose, Conte and Rafa don't.

Not sure I agree with that. 

How can you say Jose doesn't get backed as a manager? He's spent fortunes at basically every club he's been at and has a defined style of play mostly centred around playing 4-3-3 or a variation of, it was only at United he started to deviate away from it. 

Conte had a blue print for how he wanted Chelsea to play. Counter attacking football with width provided by the fullbacks breaking at speed. 

It's funny I keep reading comments about Sarri not having the players needed for his system but Conte didn't either. He wanted Alex Sandro and Oxlade-Chamberlain or Kyle Walker as his wing backs but was given Marcos Alonso and transformed Victor Moses into a wingback. But he worked with what he had, completely changed our system (the most radical charge of the Roman era IMO) and took us from a side that finished 10th to title winners in his first year. 

Sarri's not really done anything radical to date, he's reverted us back to 4-3-3 but we've not really had an upswing in form/table position so far compared to what Conte was doing and this with a happy dressing room. 

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6 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Sarri's not really done anything radical to date, he's reverted us back to 4-3-3 but we've not really had an upswing in form/table position so far compared to what Conte was doing and this with a happy dressing room. 

I think these comparisons are not helpful, I think if Conte had of got the players he wanted we would have done better.

Sarri needs improvements in fullbacks, midfield and striker. He is unlikely to get all this window yet a striker might be enough to get us fourth,

The verdict on JM won't be settled until we see how OGS does with the same bunch of players, this weekend might give some indication.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Not sure I agree with that. 

How can you say Jose doesn't get backed as a manager? He's spent fortunes at basically every club he's been at and has a defined style of play mostly centred around playing 4-3-3 or a variation of, it was only at United he started to deviate away from it. 

Conte had a blue print for how he wanted Chelsea to play. Counter attacking football with width provided by the fullbacks breaking at speed. 

It's funny I keep reading comments about Sarri not having the players needed for his system but Conte didn't either. He wanted Alex Sandro and Oxlade-Chamberlain or Kyle Walker as his wing backs but was given Marcos Alonso and transformed Victor Moses into a wingback. But he worked with what he had, completely changed our system (the most radical charge of the Roman era IMO) and took us from a side that finished 10th to title winners in his first year. 

Sarri's not really done anything radical to date, he's reverted us back to 4-3-3 but we've not really had an upswing in form/table position so far compared to what Conte was doing and this with a happy dressing room. 

I think Sarri already has the players needed for his system, the problem is they're still not good enough to challenge at the top end of the league. Liverpool and City have raised the bar so high we need more 'elite players' just to maintain the challenge, for me it's really that simple.

Edited by the special one

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4 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Not sure I agree with that. 

How can you say Jose doesn't get backed as a manager? He's spent fortunes at basically every club he's been at and has a defined style of play mostly centred around playing 4-3-3 or a variation of, it was only at United he started to deviate away from it. 

Conte had a blue print for how he wanted Chelsea to play. Counter attacking football with width provided by the fullbacks breaking at speed. 

It's funny I keep reading comments about Sarri not having the players needed for his system but Conte didn't either. He wanted Alex Sandro and Oxlade-Chamberlain or Kyle Walker as his wing backs but was given Marcos Alonso and transformed Victor Moses into a wingback. But he worked with what he had, completely changed our system (the most radical charge of the Roman era IMO) and took us from a side that finished 10th to title winners in his first year. 

Sarri's not really done anything radical to date, he's reverted us back to 4-3-3 but we've not really had an upswing in form/table position so far compared to what Conte was doing and this with a happy dressing room. 

Jose tends to have any backing withdrawn in season three, my guess is clubs start doubting his long term ability and don't want any of his players on 5 year deals.

Conte worked with what he had in the first season, which made his AWOL in season two all the more infruriating. He may not have had it his own way in the market but he certainly choose Morata, Baka and even Zappacosta (the amount of chances he gave them all shows that as Conte tended to disgard players he didn't give the green light to case in point Michy).

And Sarri may not have instantly improved results but we didn't (well i hope we didn't) appoint him with the mantra of immediate success. If we appointed Simeone and he had us where we are i would share your disappointment but we are basically performing a massive culture shift. As much of a change Conte's formation change was the basis of the style didn't change much from Mou, Sarri by comparison is shifting a club trained on one style for years, i have a few concerns but overall i think he's been fine.

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11 minutes ago, Argo said:

Jose tends to have any backing withdrawn in season three, my guess is clubs start doubting his long term ability and don't want any of his players on 5 year deals.

Jose generally gets to build his squads quite quickly and brings success quickly too. No he's not a long term manager but he's certainly got a blueprint and to put Sarri on a pedestal above him and on equal footing with Klopp and Pep is bizarre. 

13 minutes ago, Argo said:

Conte worked with what he had in the first season, which made his AWOL in season two all the more infruriating. He may not have had it his own way in the market but he certainly choose Morata, Baka and even Zappacosta (the amount of chances he gave them all shows that as Conte tended to disgard players he didn't give the green light to case in point Michy).

Not sure you can say with any certainty which players Conte did or didn't want. We know that we were after Oxlade-Chamberlain to play as wing-back so so Zappacosta wasn't first choice. He was playing a wing-back system but had no depth for that position, after Moses and Alonso he didn't have replacements and resorted to playing the likes of Pedro and Kenedy out of position to make up for the lack of depth. 

After we sold Matic, (possibly a club decision) and Chalobah we went into Conte's 2nd season with barely any depth in the midfield so he didn't have much choice but to play Bakayoko despite not being fully fit, especially with the newly signed Drinkwater ruled out with injury for a large part of the beginning of the season. 

As for Michy, Sarri soon shipped him off too and he's also struggled to establish himself at Valencia so I don't think Conte can be criticised too much for not fancying him as he's not alone in that assessment. 

30 minutes ago, Argo said:

And Sarri may not have instantly improved results but we didn't (well i hope we didn't) appoint him with the mantra of immediate success.

No he was bought in to improve the style of football we played to make us more entertaining, something that I and other Chelsea fans don't think he is doing. 

 

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1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Jose generally gets to build his squads quite quickly and brings success quickly too. No he's not a long term manager but he's certainly got a blueprint and to put Sarri on a pedestal above him and on equal footing with Klopp and Pep is bizarre.   

I'm taking in terms of how willing the boards seem to be to back him. Bringing in Kepa and Jorginho for example shows willingness to back Sarri in ways Jose the second time and Conte weren't. Klopp's in what season four and is being backed with record breaking signings 

Yeah he (Jose) has got a blueprint which is mainly geared towards winning and winning immediately and his tactics often reflect that, which makes it hard to fully back him with hugely expensive players on five year deals. 

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Not sure you can say with any certainty which players Conte did or didn't want.

After we sold Matic, (possibly a club decision) and Chalobah we went into Conte's 2nd season with barely any depth in the midfield so he didn't have much choice but to play Bakayoko despite not being fully fit, especially with the newly signed Drinkwater ruled out with injury for a large part of the beginning of the season. 

I can't say with certainty, but the fact he kept giving Morata and Bakayoko chance after chance after chance suggested he at the very very least approved the deal. Regarding the bit about Baka, when Conte finally gave up on him he played Cesc in a two man midfield even against Barcelona before giving the Frenchman any more playing time, something i'd wager he would have done even earlier had Baka been signed against his will.

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

No he was bought in to improve the style of football we played to make us more entertaining, something that I and other Chelsea fans don't think he is doing. 



He's improved the technical way we play by some distance, already we are passing out comfortably under pressure against even the highest level of opponents when previously we fell to pieces against any form of high pressing even against sh*t opponents, it was our achilles heel for years even in the title season's.

The aesthetically pleasing side of his tactics need a lot of work however, that i will give. 

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

As for Michy, Sarri soon shipped him off too and he's also struggled to establish himself at Valencia so I don't think Conte can be criticised too much for not fancying him as he's not alone in that assessment. 

Of Course Conte was not wrong, but the point i am making is if Michy was his choice he would have gotten the chances to prove himself Baka and Morata did.

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8 hours ago, shedpensioner said:

Yes, I genuinely think that they took their foot off the pedal, they have a massive game at the weekend & they had the lead. Their pressing wasn’t nearly as intense as it has been all season, I think they had gears to go, whereas we were full tilt.

When they blew us out the water in 20 minutes last time we played them, ok mate sure 

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4 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

No he was bought in to improve the style of football we played to make us more entertaining, something that I and other Chelsea fans don't think he is doing. 

I much prefer Sarri style of having possession and trying to play to Contes 10 behind the ball, hope the opposition f**k up and lump it up toward Hazard football. 

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On 08/01/2019 at 23:55, the special one said:

Willian < CHO/Lozano
Jorginho < Thiago/Bentancur/Diawara
Barkley < Isco/James Rodriguez/Ramsey/Hamsik/Ozyakup
Morata < Higuain/Fekir/Joelinton
Alonso < Alba/Ghoulam

ha ha ha ha.

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15 hours ago, Argo said:

I'm taking in terms of how willing the boards seem to be to back him. Bringing in Kepa and Jorginho for example shows willingness to back Sarri in ways Jose the second time and Conte weren't. Klopp's in what season four and is being backed with record breaking signings 

Sarri hasn't been given any more money than Conte was, it's just instead of spending £130m on 5 mediocre players they've invested it in two better quality ones. Quality over quantity. 

As for Liverpool/Klopp. It's easier to keep backing a manager with large sums when you're qualifying for the Champions League and selling players for over £100m. 

15 hours ago, Argo said:

Yeah he (Jose) has got a blueprint which is mainly geared towards winning and winning immediately and his tactics often reflect that, which makes it hard to fully back him with hugely expensive players on five year deals. 

Like Lukaku, Bailey, Pogba, Willian, Costa, Fabregas, Matic? He gets plenty of expensive players on long term deals. 

15 hours ago, Argo said:

I can't say with certainty, but the fact he kept giving Morata and Bakayoko chance after chance after chance suggested he at the very very least approved the deal. Regarding the bit about Baka, when Conte finally gave up on him he played Cesc in a two man midfield even against Barcelona before giving the Frenchman any more playing time, something i'd wager he would have done even earlier had Baka been signed against his will.

From his title winning season we know Conte didn't like playing Fabregas in a two man midfield. He used him more sparingly and generally bought him on in more advanced areas of the pitch. So it's not a stretch to think the following season he's still going to be reluctant to play Cesc there... Bakayoko had a better engine than Fabregas so it made sense for Conte to want to try and get him settled into the team to suit his system. Same as Sarri with Jorginho. He won't play Kante at the base of his midfield because he doesn't have the characteristic he wants to play there. 

So by Conte playing Cesc in the two man midfield was an admission of what a complete car crash of a signing Bakayoko turned out be and I don't think it's any indication of whether he was a player Conte wanted or not. 

15 hours ago, Argo said:

He's improved the technical way we play by some distance, already we are passing out comfortably under pressure against even the highest level of opponents when previously we fell to pieces against any form of high pressing even against sh*t opponents, it was our achilles heel for years even in the title season's.

But we now look extremely vulnerable to counter attacks. Teams slice through the middle of the team at pace and with ease, we've seen that all season. Something that didn't happen with Conte's system. So you gain more confidence in possession, especially at the back (though I still think we're causing ourselves a lot of problems with that tactic) but have lost solidity in the middle of the park. 

15 hours ago, Argo said:

Of Course Conte was not wrong, but the point i am making is if Michy was his choice he would have gotten the chances to prove himself Baka and Morata did.

Bakayoko and Morata were bought as first choice players intended to replace Matic and Costa so it's to be expected that the coach does his utmost to integrate them into the first team. Michy was bought as prospect/back up and was always likely to have fewer chances than the other two same as we've seen with the likes of Zappacosta and Emerson. 

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16 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But we now look extremely vulnerable to counter attacks. Teams slice through the middle of the team at pace and with ease, we've seen that all season. Something that didn't happen with Conte's system. So you gain more confidence in possession, especially at the back (though I still think we're causing ourselves a lot of problems with that tactic) but have lost solidity in the middle of the park. 

And yet STILL have the second best defensive record in the league.  Strange, ain't it, when we have two of the worst defenders ever to have played for any team in Luiz and  Alonso (if some people's ratings are correct) and a mid-field that gets sliced through with ease?

Not arguing with a lot of what you say, to be honest, but you know how I like rational and reasonable language in debate.

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2 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

And yet STILL have the second best defensive record in the league.  Strange, ain't it, when we have two of the worst defenders ever to have played for any team in Luiz and  Alonso (if some people's ratings are correct) and a mid-field that gets sliced through with ease?

Not arguing with a lot of what you say, to be honest, but you know how I like rational and reasonable language in debate.

Whether the opposition convert the chances is a whole other argument but even the most blinkered Chelsea fan (that includes you yorkley) has to admit that we're very susceptible to counter attacks (see Vardy's winner for Leicester as a recent example). 

It's fine to concede chances but when you're lowest scoring side in the top six any time a team does convert their chances then you're facing an uphill battle to recover. That we've only won once in the league this season from a losing position is testament to that. 

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Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what you say, but we still have a good defensive record. 

You don't get points for getting chances through the midfield unless you actually score those.  You can't take single players or team elements in isolation, it's a whole team game.  The midfield and defense between them work, better than 18 other teams in the league.  Take that pikey vardy if you want to, but there have been many many others where any such penetration has been dealt with easily and cleanly.

All I'm saying is have a bit of balance about it all.

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23 hours ago, shedpensioner said:

 

Last night because of our lack of cutting edge Spurs let us have the ball, in the hope they could counter attack us, that’s why we had so much possession, no other reason.

 

I am sorry, but that's a really dim statement.

For a start, that is not how Tottenham play. They expansively outplayed us last time the two teams met. They could have scored 7 or 8 goals- let's keep that in mind. Do you really think they decided to gamble on the fact that we wouldn't convert a chance, and therefore decided to change their entire philosophy  and camp in their own half, at home,  against their bitter rivals?! All to protect a slender 1 goal lead, with a further 90 minutes to come away from home?

More crucially, they never looked in control, or even remotely comfortable. Do you really think it was their game plan to consistently lose possession in the middle of the park under our press, and hoof it out of play repeatedly, and fail to be able to provide an outlet for a counter attack? All part of the plan?

Let's be honest, Spurs nicked a 1-0 win, with a very dubious penalty decision. If it had been the other way round I would have loved it. No shame in nicking a 1-0 win, but let's not try and pretend it was some master stroke by Poch to be outplayed, out-muscled, and hanging on for dear life at the end. It wasn't. And it won't be in the next leg either.

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14 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I much prefer Sarri style of having possession and trying to play to Contes 10 behind the ball, hope the opposition f**k up and lump it up toward Hazard football. 

That's harsh on Conte. Maybe in the latter days, but we were exceptional at times in his first season and even part of the second.

All coaches will have good and bad points - strengths & weaknesses. Guess most of us would like to see a mix / balance of Sarri's style and Conte's. Thought we played really well against Sp*rs the other night and I hope to see more of that only with a striker and more end product. Wjat hasn't been good is at The Bridge where the likes of Everton, Leicester and Southampton have so easily frustrated us and the football has been a complete bore. Not sure how anyone could argue that is better than what we had under Conte?

With some tweaks and squad changes (and keep giving minutes to the likes of CHO & Ampadu), think Sarris is heading in the right direction but he's still got a way to go to be compared to Conte. I know a lot of supporters fell out of love with Conte, but he got what Chelsea was all about. - he certainly didn't need telling what a match against Sp*rs meant to the supporters.  

 

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