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*Officially sacked* but still Super Frank Lampard


Sack or Back ???  

113 members have voted

  1. 1. Sack or Back Frank ?

    • Sack now.
      34
    • Back until the end of the season, unless relegation dooms, then evaluate.
      79


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2 hours ago, Argo said:

We had to be more open and attacking, we lost our game changer with no chance to replace him, had we played the cautious possession football Sarri did (or counter football Mou did) without Hazard we'd have been lucky to get 50 goals (and even that projected prediction is due to the fact Pulisic exploded at the business end).

Even with the attacking tactics we still hugely struggled against low blocks whenever one of Pulisic or CHO weren't on form, sometimes even when they were, imagine how badly it would have worked out if we were largely relying on our front 3 without Eden to find a way to break them, I'd dread to think how many games we would have gone without a goal at some points.

You say it's an underwhelming performance but no one expected us to be top four this season, infact people kept saying they would have widely accepted 10th aslong as youth were playing and there was some positive encouragement of a potential end product, as it happened we got both of them along with 4th.

I agree with you on that we had to be more open and I hope we can fix it next year. Although we had a chance to replace hazard. Which we did. His name is pulisic. Why does everyone keep forgetting this. We didn't sign pulisic to replace anyone but hazard. 

Also, I imagine lots of fans expected us to get 66 points this season. I thought we'd finish 6th with 60 odd points. 

No one expected arsenal and Tottenham to implode. If you had told every pundit that at the beginning of the season, all of them would have had us in the top 4. So would you. It had nothing to do with us that they finished below us.

We need to stop treating finishing 4th like a miracle. It was at or slightly above expectations. Our squad was more than capable of finishing above Leicester and wolves squads which ultimately is what 4th was as an achievement. 

Edited by bisright1
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17 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I agree with you on that we had to be more open and I hope we can fix it next year. Although we had a chance to replace hazard. Which we did. His name is pulisic. Why does everyone keep forgetting this. We didn't sign pulisic to replace anyone but hazard. 

Also, I imagine lots of fans expected us to get 66 points this season. I thought we'd finish 6th with 60 odd points. 

No one expected arsenal and Tottenham to implode. If you had told every pundit that at the beginning of the season, all of them would have had us in the top 4. So would you. It had nothing to do with us that they finished below us.

We need to stop treating finishing 4th like a miracle. It was at or slightly above expectations. Our squad was more than capable of finishing above Leicester and wolves squads which ultimately is what 4th was as an achievement. 

We did, but Hazard isn't so easily replaced, and everyone doubted Pulisic massively before he came. Simply because after an injury he was benched and couldn't get back into the side due to Sancho, and his goal record at Dortmund wasn't very good either. Was anyone expecting Pulisic to be this good? I rated Pulisic and liked the signing and even I didn't expect him to be this good in his first season. 

So it's not as simple as "well we got Pulisic so there's no we lost hazard excuse", the way Lampard introduced him into the side deserves a lot of credit I think. But Pulisic of course, deserves the most credit, he just got on with it and performed. 

Finishing 4th was not slightly above expectations at all. Arsenal and Spurs fans were relishing in our demise with the transfer ban and losing Hazard, with Pedro and Willian being a year older. Nobody expected us to finish above those two, it's easy to say this now in hindsight. Yet we did finish above them, and we were above United for 99% of the season and only finished behind them on goal difference. Lampard deserves a lot of credit, but yes, we also need to objective, the defending has been a disgrace, an absolute disgrace. If it's still like this next season, then I think he's out the door quite early. 

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42 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

I agree with you on that we had to be more open and I hope we can fix it next year. Although we had a chance to replace hazard. Which we did. His name is pulisic. Why does everyone keep forgetting this. We didn't sign pulisic to replace anyone but hazard. 

Also, I imagine lots of fans expected us to get 66 points this season. I thought we'd finish 6th with 60 odd points. 

No one expected arsenal and Tottenham to implode. If you had told every pundit that at the beginning of the season, all of them would have had us in the top 4. So would you. It had nothing to do with us that they finished below us.

We need to stop treating finishing 4th like a miracle. It was at or slightly above expectations. Our squad was more than capable of finishing above Leicester and wolves squads which ultimately is what 4th was as an achievement. 

I would have still said 66 points was a good season regardless of position, to only have 6 less after losing your only world class player is nothing to be sniffed at even if we got a transfer window (for context Liverpool had 22 less after losing Suarez and they still had Sterling, Sturridge and Coutinho, United had 5 less after losing CR7 and they still had Rooney) There's also been very encouraging signs because when we're good we're very good, Lampard has also beaten all the top 8 (plus Ajax) atleast once and has outdone four CL winning managers (and not only that he handed Ancelotti his joint highest career defeat and became the first manager to the double on Mourinho). Yes he has to improve on some aspects of his management if he wants us to challenge for the league on his watch, but the projected end product is very exciting in my opinion.

Regarding Arsenal and Spurs, it hasn't surprised me atall what's happening to them this season, them challenging us so closely for 4th last season was a lot more than they deserved, this season was results catching up with them.

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10 minutes ago, doctorblue said:

Think it's time for RA to pull the plug on Frank and get someone like Potticheno in...

From what I heard Poch won't manage a Spurs rival, although could be bollocks. 

Your comment here won't go down well on this forum but tbf I rate Poch, I think despite the lack of trophies he took Spurs to the next level and consistently finished in the top 4 with limited resources. Still, we can't sack Lampard, he's had a very good season regardless of the defensive flaws, but I think the honeymoon period is definitely over, there will be no excuses if we are underperforming next season I wager. 

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42 minutes ago, Slojo said:

We did, but Hazard isn't so easily replaced, and everyone doubted Pulisic massively before he came. Simply because after an injury he was benched and couldn't get back into the side due to Sancho, and his goal record at Dortmund wasn't very good either. Was anyone expecting Pulisic to be this good? I rated Pulisic and liked the signing and even I didn't expect him to be this good in his first season. 

So it's not as simple as "well we got Pulisic so there's no we lost hazard excuse", the way Lampard introduced him into the side deserves a lot of credit I think. But Pulisic of course, deserves the most credit, he just got on with it and performed. 

Finishing 4th was not slightly above expectations at all. Arsenal and Spurs fans were relishing in our demise with the transfer ban and losing Hazard, with Pedro and Willian being a year older. Nobody expected us to finish above those two, it's easy to say this now in hindsight. Yet we did finish above them, and we were above United for 99% of the season and only finished behind them on goal difference. Lampard deserves a lot of credit, but yes, we also need to objective, the defending has been a disgrace, an absolute disgrace. If it's still like this next season, then I think he's out the door quite early. 

I agree on pulisic not being at the same level, but I just tire of people saying we didn't replace hazard because of the transfer ban. If we didn't have a transfer ban we'd have still signed pulisic to replace hazard. 

4th was above expectations. But those expectations had 4th being a similar points total to the year before. It had arsenal and spurs being stronger. Nothing Frank or Chelsea did made those teams underperform. So I'm just cautious on proclaiming Frank a great manager until he wins a trophy + shows us something better next year after a proper transfer window. 

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Just now, bisright1 said:

I agree on pulisic not being at the same level, but I just tire of people saying we didn't replace hazard because of the transfer ban. If we didn't have a transfer ban we'd have still signed pulisic to replace hazard. 

4th was above expectations. But those expectations had 4th being a similar points total to the year before. It had arsenal and spurs being stronger. Nothing Frank or Chelsea did made those teams underperform. So I'm just cautious on proclaiming Frank a great manager until he wins a trophy + shows us something better next year after a proper transfer window. 

I completely understand the skepticism when it comes to Frank, because the defensive woes I can't simply just blame on our defenders. Our set piece defending has made Wenger's late Arsenal look like Mourinho's 2005 Chelsea. I'm worried for Frank that he won't fix this, and we'll be the exact same next season, because I saw little to 0 adjustments throughout the whole season when it came to our defence and defending set pieces even though it was our number 1 problem. 

But let's also be objective here, and get rid of the hindsight for a second. Take us back before the PL start and anyone on this forum would've bitten your hand off for 4th place, nobody expected it. Frank did a great job with the side, and Pulisic was a big gamble, we may have replaced Hazard but there was a f**k load of work to do and it wasn't just a case of waiting on Pulisic to come. 

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42 minutes ago, Slojo said:

From what I heard Poch won't manage a Spurs rival, although could be bollocks. 

Your comment here won't go down well on this forum but tbf I rate Poch, I think despite the lack of trophies he took Spurs to the next level and consistently finished in the top 4 with limited resources. Still, we can't sack Lampard, he's had a very good season regardless of the defensive flaws, but I think the honeymoon period is definitely over, there will be no excuses if we are underperforming next season I wager. 

You've expressed yourself well there my friend...I've only ever seen FL as a strict stop gap measure as it was unlikely given the ban any established manager would had step in...now that has passed, and funds are available and being spent, it's time to bring someone in who can take us on again...FL has sadly proved that he is out of his depth at this level in terms of his strategy, team selection and ability to coach (especially in a defensive prospective)...much as I like the man, no one is bigger than the club and difficult decisions have to be made in the best interests of the club going forward...FL I'm sure will be a good manager one day but he needs to cut his teeth elsewhere at a lower level and learn his trade without so much expectation heaped on his shoulders...Bournemouth would have be a good for for him in the short term...

Edited by doctorblue
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4 hours ago, Argo said:

We had to be more open and attacking, we lost our game changer with no chance to replace him, had we played the cautious possession football Sarri did (or counter football Mou did) without Hazard we'd have been lucky to get 50 goals (and even that projected prediction is due to the fact Pulisic exploded at the business end).

Even with the attacking tactics we still hugely struggled against low blocks whenever one of Pulisic or CHO weren't on form, sometimes even when they were, imagine how badly it would have worked out if we were largely relying on our front 3 without Eden to find a way to break them, I'd dread to think how many games we would have gone without a goal at some points.

You say it's an underwhelming performance but no one expected us to be top four this season, infact people kept saying they would have widely accepted 10th aslong as youth were playing and there was some positive encouragement of a potential end product, as it happened we got both of them along with 4th.

This is pretty much how i see it. 

Lampard made a conscious decision to sacrifice defensive stability in order to outscore teams, because he knew if we sat back and didnt commit many forward, we would struggle to replace Hazards contribution. 

It is completely the opposite to what most managers do when they come in, usually they make teams difficult to beat, then look at ways to score more goals. 

I dont know whether the approach was right or wrong, but considering our league position and fa cup run, you would have to say it was successful. 

The big question now, is whether signing the likes of Werner, Ziyech, and possibly Havertz, can provide the same or better goal threat, whilst maintaining a better defensive shape and not over committing. 

I would be very suprised if we played as open next season, even if we sign some defensive reinforcements. I think there will be more faith that we can keep games tight, and our attacking quality will show through in the end. 

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12 minutes ago, doctorblue said:

You've expressed yourself well there my friend...I've only ever seen FL as a strict stop gap measure as it was unlikely given the ban any established manager would had step in...now that has passed, and funds are available and being spent, it's time to bring someone in who can take us on again...FL has sadly proved that he is out of his depth at this level in terms of his strategy, team selection and ability to coach (especially in a defensive prospective)...much as I like the man, no one is bigger than the club and difficult decisions have to be made in the best interests of the club going forward...FL I'm sure will be a good manager one day but he needs to cut his teeth elsewhere at a lower level and learn his trade without so much expectation heaped on his shoulders...Bournemouth would have be a good for for him in the short term...

I don't think he's out of his depth, but I think he's really struggled to organise a backline. It kind of reminds me of the AVB situation when he first came in and he kept playing the way he wanted to play even though we never had the players to play a highline or the way he wanted to. But to be fair, he did make adjustments, although sometimes, he made too many adjustments for my liking and kept shifting around the defence. 

Let's be fair, Christensen and Zouma can't be completely excused, the pair of them have made horrendous individual errors, Kepa has been a disaster all season and can't come out of his 6 yard box. Zouma is a limited defender, decent, but not good enough to be a starter, Tomori has been promising but mistake prone when put under pressure. So it's not like Lampard has had great resources to work with, I guess we'll find out next season who the problem is. If we have new defenders who can actually defend, and we're still conceding a f**kload, I think it's fair to say Frank is out of his depth, but if the problems go away just like it did with Klopp and VVD, then it really was a matter of quality. 

He's earned another season, because he's done a very good job. But like I've said several times already today, if the same problems are there next season, then I think we'll have to move on from the Lampard project, I hope it doesn't come to that. 

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2 hours ago, bisright1 said:

I agree with you on that we had to be more open and I hope we can fix it next year. Although we had a chance to replace hazard. Which we did. His name is pulisic. Why does everyone keep forgetting this. We didn't sign pulisic to replace anyone but hazard. 

Also, I imagine lots of fans expected us to get 66 points this season. I thought we'd finish 6th with 60 odd points. 

No one expected arsenal and Tottenham to implode. If you had told every pundit that at the beginning of the season, all of them would have had us in the top 4. So would you. It had nothing to do with us that they finished below us.

We need to stop treating finishing 4th like a miracle. It was at or slightly above expectations. Our squad was more than capable of finishing above Leicester and wolves squads which ultimately is what 4th was as an achievement. 

This one s not true..

1) Pulisic never scored more than 5 goals a season at Dortmund to suggest we brought him to replace Hazard who was our top scorer is absurd. I think this was more of gamble on him being able to replace aging squad players like Willian/Pedro

2) With Sarri we gave him two strikers proven strikers in Higuain / Morata which we never replaced. 

3) our most experienced CB didn’t fancy a reduced role and angled for a move .. the inexperience clearly showed for us in some big games.

4) our three most important players under Sarri were suffering from long term injuries in RLC, Rudiger and Kante

You say if Spurs and Arsensl had not imploded we wouldn’t be 4th .. well if we had not thrown points away against- Sheffield, Watford, Brighton, Arsenal and otherdywe would have been second. 

 

So if you think that us coming 4th was at par or only slightly above par .. o am not so sure abt that.

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46 minutes ago, Jangz said:

This one s not true..

1) Pulisic never scored more than 5 goals a season at Dortmund to suggest we brought him to replace Hazard who was our top scorer is absurd. I think this was more of gamble on him being able to replace aging squad players like Willian/Pedro

2) With Sarri we gave him two strikers proven strikers in Higuain / Morata which we never replaced. 

3) our most experienced CB didn’t fancy a reduced role and angled for a move .. the inexperience clearly showed for us in some big games.

4) our three most important players under Sarri were suffering from long term injuries in RLC, Rudiger and Kante

You say if Spurs and Arsensl had not imploded we wouldn’t be 4th .. well if we had not thrown points away against- Sheffield, Watford, Brighton, Arsenal and otherdywe would have been second. 

 

So if you think that us coming 4th was at par or only slightly above par .. o am not so sure abt that.

Pulisic missed quite a lot of matches too..

I think top 4 and a cup final with our first XI is a good achievement for any manager let alone FL..I dont think Poch would have done any better (he couldnt with Kane)..Maybe a Jose could have got more points by parking a train..

I am really surprised (pleasantly) at Arsenal being 8th with their first 11 and a really good striker in Auba..

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1 hour ago, Jangz said:

This one s not true..

1) Pulisic never scored more than 5 goals a season at Dortmund to suggest we brought him to replace Hazard who was our top scorer is absurd. I think this was more of gamble on him being able to replace aging squad players like Willian/Pedro

2) With Sarri we gave him two strikers proven strikers in Higuain / Morata which we never replaced. 

3) our most experienced CB didn’t fancy a reduced role and angled for a move .. the inexperience clearly showed for us in some big games.

4) our three most important players under Sarri were suffering from long term injuries in RLC, Rudiger and Kante

You say if Spurs and Arsensl had not imploded we wouldn’t be 4th .. well if we had not thrown points away against- Sheffield, Watford, Brighton, Arsenal and otherdywe would have been second. 

 

So if you think that us coming 4th was at par or only slightly above par .. o am not so sure abt that.

We signed pulisic because hazard was leaving. I don't see how that isn't true. We knew hazard was leaving and signed a player in January to join that summer. It was a gamble, but we didn't lose an attacker. We basically signed Abraham to replace morata. A downgrade maybe, but not really. Higuain wasn't a loss. 

Lampard sanctioned the sale of Luiz. If you think that had an effect on the team, then that's fully on lampard. We weren't forced to sell him to arsenal. I'm happy Luiz went, but it was a lampard decision that some (not me, but maybe you) would say backfired. I think our centre backs we have are good enough in comparison to last year and it is Kepa and the system that is at fault. 

I basically said in relation to Tottenham and Arsenal that many peoples prediction that we wouldn't come in top 4 was dependent on those teams doing much much better than they did. Our squad is 100% stronger than wolves and Leicester who ended up being out rivals for 4th and no Chelsea fan predicted we would finish below them. This is all to say, top 4 was an achievement but not a miracle. 

Sarri, Conte, Benitez, Jose mk3, I think they'd have all got that squad into the top 4 based on how poor the competition was this year. 

Frank's test wasn't this year. It's next. 

Edited by bisright1
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11 minutes ago, dkw said:

How on earth can you not realise the impact of losing Hazard, no matter who we brought in. He spent the last 2 years dragging us through the season. Also your downplaying of all the problems this season for the manager is very off. 

It's a conversation that has spiralled from me pointing out that we didn't lose hazard and not replace him. 

Of course losing hazard has an impact. I don't remember many people saying that we were going to finish 10th because we lost hazard. 90% of fans on this forum  predicted we would finish in the top 6. 

I'm not deliberately downplaying the problems. I'm just highlighting that if you draw a line at the start of the year, our squad was good enough to get top 4 if you take arsenal and Tottenham out the picture (which they did themselves to a massive degree). Every pundit in the country would have predicted we would be at least top 6. We all would have predicted 60odd points and been happy with it. 

It's not a miracle we came 4th. It's a good achievement. Next year he needs to sort out the defence and that will be a bigger test of his management abilities. As I don't believe recruitment will solve it. 

 

Edited by bisright1
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23 minutes ago, dkw said:

How on earth can you not realise the impact of losing Hazard, no matter who we brought in. He spent the last 2 years dragging us through the season. Also your downplaying of all the problems this season for the manager is very off. 

I would've said the last 5. When we won the title with Jose, Cesc, Matic, Oscar, Willian and Costa all went off the boil in January and onwards, Hazard was literally winning us games on his own, almost every goal from then on was coming through his play. 

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4 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I would've said the last 5. When we won the title with Jose, Cesc, Matic, Oscar, Willian and Costa all went off the boil in January and onwards, Hazard was literally winning us games on his own, almost every goal from then on was coming through his play. 

Ironically if we had kept hazard and not signed pulisic, this season would have been an actual disaster. 

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19 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Ironically if we had kept hazard and not signed pulisic, this season would have been an actual disaster. 

Hard to really know that, going to a new team as big as Madrid isn't for everyone, Hazard was very settled here. I believe he would've had a great season with or without the injury myself. 

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6 hours ago, abramovich said:

Wasn't he in charge of the team that was midtable prior to restart? Whose fault was it that they were struggling? Given the money spent and the squad he had at his disposal, OGS was expected to finish in the top four so I'd say he did as well as expected but that's it.

Frank, on the other hand, clearly overachieved given all the issues he had to deal with. And since we're comparing managers, it makes no difference why we couldn't spend money and upgrade our team and United could, the fact of the matter is, Ole had that advantage while Frank had to make do with what he'd inherited from previous managers, not to mention Hazard's departure. 

Here's a scenario. Who's United's best player? Let's say it's Pogba. Imagine they sold him last summer and haven't signed anyone since then. No Maguire, no Wan-Bissaka, no Bruno. Would you think they'd have finished third as they did? I think it's highly unlikely. So I strongly disagree with the notion that transfers shouldn't be taken into account when you judge teams, it's hugely important and makes a big difference.

They wouldn't have finished top 4 if they didnt sign bruno !!

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33 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Hard to really know that, going to a new team as big as Madrid isn't for everyone, Hazard was very settled here. I believe he would've had a great season with or without the injury myself. 

Ha I thought he was out for pretty much the entire season. Turns out he still played 15 games or so. 

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For me this isn’t all about Frank and if he’s good enough yet to get us challenging for the title. He needs a better no.2. I’m not saying get rid of Jody because it made perfect sense for him to stay working with this group of young players, after all he got a lot of them to the fringes of the first team squad but Frank needs a Stevie Holland type figure. I’m not sure defending is Franks strong point but if he had the support of a real good experienced no.2 it would change everything. Look at the staff Jose had that follow him everywhere but he always had a solid no.2. Personally I think a better no.2 would be our best transfer of this window. Someone who knows how to organise and CL experience. 

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I think Frank only needs to improve for next term. 66 points to 75, 69 goals scored to 80, 59 conceded to 40, 20 wins to 25 and so on. Something in the lines of that.

We cannot be stupid enough to think we can overtake City and Liverpool. Both of them have very good squads at the right age. We have bits and pieces of a good squad and most of the main players are young. Frank also has a very demanding system. We are not trying to defend victories.

Anyway the honeymoon period is over. We are spending 150-200m to new players. Players Frank want and need. I am 100% sure we will improve and that will be the story for next term.

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  • coco changed the title to *Officially sacked* but still Super Frank Lampard
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