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*Officially sacked* but still Super Frank Lampard


Sack or Back ???  

113 members have voted

  1. 1. Sack or Back Frank ?

    • Sack now.
      34
    • Back until the end of the season, unless relegation dooms, then evaluate.
      79


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21 minutes ago, Chelsbear said:

The post match comments just confirm my fears, he isn't getting it. 

City stopped playing at 3-0, the game was done so talk of competing for 20 minutes at the end is delusional. 

I love the man, he is a hero to us all but as a manager at this level he is lacking big time. No shame as seasoned successful managers have struggled here. 

It won't get any better I'm afraid, he simply doesn't know how to set us up or motivate his squad. 

It was always going to end in tears....romantic appointments always do 

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I was optimistic when I saw the team, as apart from Kova for Kai and Azpi for Reece, I think this was our strongest 11 - (I know Kai has been poor so far - but I mean theoretically)

We also picked the system that I like the best - 433

So, we had the players, and the system  - So I was in a positive frame of mind.

Then all my hope disintegrated within the first 10 mins, as I commented on the match day thread, when our sole route for attack was give the ball to a half fit Ziyech, and let him cross into the box. As a tactic, and a way of playing to our strengths, this was pure, utter madness.

I love Frank, and think he (broadly speaking) picked the right players, and the right system. But good god man, why the hell are your players slowly passing, very static, and continually trying to cross the ball into Werner? And If that is NOT your tactic (i.e the players are going agianst your instructions), then why are you simply standing there with your arms crossed?

so, either

A) either the slow play and crossing tactics is your own idea, and you are too stupid/tactically inept to see that it is clearly not working.

or

B) The slow play and crossing is not your tactic, and the players are choosing to go against you and do that themselves, but you are not doing ANYTHING to change it (subs, shouting, getting animated etc)

To my mind, either A or B has to be true. Neither is a good look.

Sort it out Frank! and fast...

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1 hour ago, Slojo said:

I don't see why it's a stupid idea to move on from a manager who is badly underperforming

Happens in all walks of life football shouldn't be an exception  I've seen loads of guys promoted to managerial positions who have been disastrous.

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Mental folk want to sack Lampard... some of the same people who had us down for a title challenge because we went 17 unbeaten and were fawning over him.

 

I’d suggest people calm down and revisit it tomorrow. Teams have slumps. You can’t keep going around sacking managers for a month of poor form. It’s insanity.

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44 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Jose gone sooner both times? That wouldn't have been terrible then would it. And Conte gone after 2 months? Don't be silly. That's clearly not the same, Lampard has been here for 18 months now, big difference. We've never booted a manager out that quickly in his first season, not even AVB. 

And how did AVB have a much better squad? He had to play with Torres up front and Daniel Sturridge out wide for the full season. On top of that 34 year old Lampard, Ramires and Mikel in his midfield. Yeah we won the CL with Di Matteo in an absolute freak season, but there's a reason we went out and spent over 200 million in the summer after. 

On paper we have some great players here and we should be doing much much better. You're telling me Ziyech, Pulisic, Giroud, Werner, Abraham, CHO weren't better options than Torres, Sturridge, Mata, Malouda, Kalou, Anelka and Drogba at the time? Considering how old and badly Drogs, Anelka and Malouda were at that time and the season before with Carlo? Come off it. It's easy looking at the old guard now but back then in 2011/12 before Di Matteo took over they stunk the place out big time because each and every one of them were in their 30's and exiting their primes, or already had with the exception of John Terry. Frank, Drogba, Anelka, Malouda, Cole had already left their primes by then despite the solid performances they put in the Champions League that season. 

This team is 100% more creative and fast paced than that team was. 

People are suggesting Frank should go after a month of sh*t results and football, I can't get past that people can't see how impatient that is given what he showed the previous 17 months!

Do we really need to go through the squads player by player? The goalkeeper is a non-starter. Cech, the best keeper in this country in the last 30 years, not as good as before the head injury but better than both Mendy and Kepa.

Backline of Ivanovic in his best years, Just past peak Cole and Terry with Luiz or Cahill alongside him? again, non starter, 2012 better, with quality cover in every single position in Paulo, Alex, Cahill/Luiz and Bertrand. Frank has partially addressed defence by bringing in Chilwell, brought James in to compete at RB but the centre backs he inherited have proved to be unreliable at best with Silva being a stop gap due to age. There's a lot of improvement needed in defence but Frank has done what he can so far IMO.

Midfield had more depth, strength and quality. Mata played out wide most of that season if I recall but he was more creative than our current crop have shown this season. Lampard was past his peak but wasn't useless by any means, at 34 he'd walk into the team he inherited as manager. Mikel, Ramires, Meireles, Romeu, Mceachran, Knees-gone-Essien. That midfield is full of experience and isn't getting bullied or outfought as easily as ours currently is, Kante at his best would get in it but that's it for me Midfield is one of the areas of concern right now but frank has invested in it with Havertz who definitely needs patience and going by rumours wants to bring in Rice who personally, I'm not entirely convinced by. Kovacic at times with Mount and glimpses of Gilmour have been the bright lights in midfield but again, midfield is a concern at the moment. Overall I'd argue 2012 was a better inheritance than 2019, Frank has just done a better job with what he had than AVB did.

Up front/centre forward AVB had options in Drogba, Anelka both past it admittedly to rely on for a season but Drogba especially could turn it on if he wanted to, Torres was a cancer at the club but Sturridge was not an unknown quantity or too young like you could argue Lukaku may have been but he could have been used up front rather than wide but the lack of options wide often meant he, Mata and even Ramires played there. I'll conceed Frank inherited better wide options but only just, Pedro was well past it last season and Willian was... well... Willian, CHO and Pulisic were and too an extent still are unknown quantities or unreliable due to injury. Upfront though I'd say AVB probably had better options, Old Drogba is better than old Giroud when he wanted to be, Giving Lukaku time (which AVB didn't) or using Sturridge would have been no more different than Frank putting faith in Abraham which payed off for most of last season. Frank has brought in Ziyech who has looked fantastic until his injury, Werner who I'm personally very unsure on but he needs patience. We're really struggling to create anything in the final third this season so surprised you think this squad is more creative, more pace but no more creativity, certainly no current player has shown what Mata did albeit in following seasons, not with AVB. Having said that I feel if we can get our attackers fit, rotate the wide options better and get Werner or Abraham into form then we could find some confidence and start creating and scoring the goals to drag ourselves out of this horrific form.

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7 minutes ago, jack h said:

People are suggesting Frank should go after a month of sh*t results and football, I can't get past that people can't see how impatient that is given what he showed the previous 17 months!

Do we really need to go through the squads player by player? The goalkeeper is a non-starter. Cech, the best keeper in this country in the last 30 years, not as good as before the head injury but better than both Mendy and Kepa.

Backline of Ivanovic in his best years, Just past peak Cole and Terry with Luiz or Cahill alongside him? again, non starter, 2012 better, with quality cover in every single position in Paulo, Alex, Cahill/Luiz and Bertrand. Frank has partially addressed defence by bringing in Chilwell, brought James in to compete at RB but the centre backs he inherited have proved to be unreliable at best with Silva being a stop gap due to age. There's a lot of improvement needed in defence but Frank has done what he can so far IMO.

Midfield had more depth, strength and quality. Mata played out wide most of that season if I recall but he was more creative than our current crop have shown this season. Lampard was past his peak but wasn't useless by any means, at 34 he'd walk into the team he inherited as manager. Mikel, Ramires, Meireles, Romeu, Mceachran, Knees-gone-Essien. That midfield is full of experience and isn't getting bullied or outfought as easily as ours currently is, Kante at his best would get in it but that's it for me Midfield is one of the areas of concern right now but frank has invested in it with Havertz who definitely needs patience and going by rumours wants to bring in Rice who personally, I'm not entirely convinced by. Kovacic at times with Mount and glimpses of Gilmour have been the bright lights in midfield but again, midfield is a concern at the moment. Overall I'd argue 2012 was a better inheritance than 2019, Frank has just done a better job with what he had than AVB did.

Up front/centre forward AVB had options in Drogba, Anelka both past it admittedly to rely on for a season but Drogba especially could turn it on if he wanted to, Torres was a cancer at the club but Sturridge was not an unknown quantity or too young like you could argue Lukaku may have been but he could have been used up front rather than wide but the lack of options wide often meant he, Mata and even Ramires played there. I'll conceed Frank inherited better wide options but only just, Pedro was well past it last season and Willian was... well... Willian, CHO and Pulisic were and too an extent still are unknown quantities or unreliable due to injury. Upfront though I'd say AVB probably had better options, Old Drogba is better than old Giroud when he wanted to be, Giving Lukaku time (which AVB didn't) or using Sturridge would have been no more different than Frank putting faith in Abraham which payed off for most of last season. Frank has brought in Ziyech who has looked fantastic until his injury, Werner who I'm personally very unsure on but he needs patience. We're really struggling to create anything in the final third this season so surprised you think this squad is more creative, more pace but no more creativity, certainly no current player has shown what Mata did albeit in following seasons, not with AVB. Having said that I feel if we can get our attackers fit, rotate the wide options better and get Werner or Abraham into form then we could find some confidence and start creating and scoring the goals to drag ourselves out of this horrific form.

This is not the worst Chelsea squad in the Abramovic era and yet since he's been backed, he's lost more games than at home than any previous manager and is rock bottom on points per game. It would be understandable if Roman axed him.

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I'm thankful for everything that Lampard has done, he has in fact improved our squad.

Because of how good he has been he has the full right to go down with his ship, if he keeps playing the 4-3-3 in order to accommodate Mount and Kante he will go down because I can't keep being optimistic when I keep seeing that we are getting schooled against any decent team after every first half we play, it's not good enough when we lose the game already after 45 minutes of play, the 50% win rate isn't good enough.

He could change things and setup a 4-2-3-1 once again, this is his only hope. But this current go-to lineup and go-to tactic clearly doesn't work, it hasn't been working in more than 5 games now.

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47 minutes ago, Malta Blue said:

Today really sucked, I'd  hate to see Frank go but if he does and all the experts on here gets their wishes who would they replace him with?

I don’t think we need a permanent manager now if frank gets the sack tbh. I honestly feel this is one of the strongest teams we’ve had in a long time and if an interim manager can play to their strengths we would be good til the end of the season.

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mancity.png.792e36e632fda913a22dbae509c8a9c1.png

This team without a real striker casually scored 3 goals in a span of less than 20 minutes.

We have surrendered against Arsenal at half time and now against Man City as well.

Either all of our players are just super bad or our tactics simply don't work.

Would we become a good team if Lampard was to sign Rice + Grealish? If the answer is no, then Lampard might be in serious trouble.

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3 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

I don’t think we need a permanent manager now if frank gets the sack tbh. I honestly feel this is one of the strongest teams we’ve had in a long time and if an interim manager can play to their strengths we would be good til the end of the season.

I'd rather he stays but if we have to go interim until end of season you'll need someone who can strike fear into the hearts of the players. And someone chelsea through and through, we need passion. like big dunk did for Everton before Ancelotti. Little Denis would get my vote if lamps gets the boot prematurely

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3 minutes ago, KonaKai Blue said:

This is not the worst Chelsea squad in the Abramovic era and yet since he's been backed, he's lost more games than at home than any previous manager and is rock bottom on points per game. It would be understandable if Roman axed him.

I'd say it is the worse squad in Roman's era, bar the 2012 squad that I've already gone through the only other option (unless I'm forgetting one) is the squad Roman inherited himself which was actually full of quality but needed depth. Any perception that the squad now is any stronger than others is in itself an unintended testament to how well Frank has done with this squad.

Worst keeper options since Thibaut left, Cudicini, Cech and Courtois all get in this team. Unquestionably the worst back line which Frank has done his best to improve, the problem here is a lack of quality CB options to bring in.

The midfield is physically and seemingly mentally weaker than those before, plus completely inconsistant. Kante is not at the level that we've seen from him before, for me thats a combination of him getting older as well as the lesser quality or mistakes of those around him. The hopeful elements in Mount and Gilmour are options that no other manager bar possibly Ancelotti or maybe Ranieri would have used.

The attack looks good on paper but we've seen so little from our signings due to poor form or injuries that it is hard to judge, for me Frank done the best with what he had up top last season and this season our signings have let us down so far for Werner or been unfit for Ziyech. Pulisic and CHO have been injured most of the time though CHO should finally get some trust and be getting some starts, he's lost pace since his injury but he has quality. Abraham (who wouldn't have been used by other managers) has been swapped in and out the team which doesn't give him the confidence and trust I believe he needs and Giroud cannot be relied on at the top level for a whole season IMO.

You'll note that Avram Grant is top of that points per game table..... think that says everything that needs to be said about it tbh.

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8 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

Reasons? 

You are suggesting the board says to frank, we aren't going to sack you, but we don't think you are good enough to do the job without someone to hold your hand, so your best mate and the person you trust is going to lose their job instead and we will pick his replacement. 

Frank would resign and sue the club for constructive dismissal. 

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What a terrible position we have put ourselves in.  Perhaps the warning signs were there long ago, but something has to change.  I'm all for giving Frank time to right the ship, but we need to see immediate improvement.  If Chelsea do make a change, I'd be for Allegri who could get some structure and discipline in place.

Not going to pick apart all performances - everyone is all over the place.  I will single out the midfield unit again though for another atrocious performance.  Kante had a very poor game and has been sloppy with his passes for some time.  Mount and Kova, well, the less said the better.  Nothing in attack or defense.  Passengers.

Credit to City on a very good performance.  That was the standard, and no longer angry over such poor performances.  Could have been 6-0 if they wanted it, but completely took foot off the gas.  Now the ugly facts:

  • This season we have P17, W7 D5 D5, F32 A21.  Pretty poor in itself
  • Against top half teams P8, W1 D4 L3, F8 A10.  Terrible.  Exclude the West Ham 3-0 win (they sit 10th) and those stats read P7 W0 D4 L3 F5 A10.  That is enough to get any manager fired
  • Bottom half results are as expected, excluding the recent drop off with losses to Wolves and Arsenal
  • This isn't a blip - we've taken 8 of last 24 points.  That is 1/5 of the season; very hard to recover from that

Beyond the results, Frank has to recognize and address the following:

  • Psychological reasons behind such poor performances.  Confidence has gone, and mentality is too fragile
    • Part of me believes this came from poor selections and player positions
  • Abysmal habit of losing to teams that have zero form or assisting players break poor runs.  So predictable it isn't even funny 
  • No real system or pattern of play
  • No ability to play vertical thru balls (collectively as a team this stat is lower than individuals from other teams)
  • Substitutions like for like - no intent to change what isn't working
  • Players don't appear to be working particularly hard (fitness and mental fatigue concerns
  • No coordinated press; it is a half press but teams then bypass our midfield
  • No midfield
  • 17 games in and don't know best 11
  • Limited development of players (excluding Reece James, but when do we sign players and they actually improve)
  • Lowest points per game of any Roman era Manager (12 total) 1.67, 49% win rate.  AVB was 48% and 1.70 PPG.  
  • Fourth lowest PPG of any Chelsea PL Manager (including pre Roman)

Quite the hill to climb.  

 

Edited by PhilH930
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44 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I’d suggest people calm down and revisit it tomorrow. T

Got a terrible feeling we'll get some sh*t news tomorrow.

Hopefully I am wrong.

But this summer was "Roman of old" levels of investment and now that we are in a terrible position for Top 4 I fear we might see the Roman of old in terms of sacking the manager.

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4 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

You are suggesting the board says to frank, we aren't going to sack you, but we don't think you are good enough to do the job without someone to hold your hand, so your best mate and the person you trust is going to lose their job instead and we will pick his replacement. 

Frank would resign and sue the club for constructive dismissal. 

Well obviously Frank would need to be on board with the plan, we have an inexperienced Manager and coaching staff and Frank will probably be one of the first to admit that. 

Frank may decide to walk and not be a part of that but he could also see this as the board doing everything they can to help Frank in doing the job to the best of his abilities. Having an experienced number 2 to bounce ideas off and help him in situations in which he has never been in before is not a bad thing. 

I just want the management team to do everything they can to support Frank rather than sack him at the first sign of a struggling team. 

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8 minutes ago, PhilH930 said:

What a terrible position we have put ourselves in.  Perhaps the warning signs were there long ago, but something has to change.  I'm all for giving Frank time to right the ship, but we need to see immediate improvement.  If Chelsea do make a change, I'd be for Allegri who could get some structure and discipline in place.

Not going to pick apart all performances - everyone is all over the place.  I will single out the midfield unit again though for another atrocious performance.  Kante had a very poor game and has been sloppy with his passes for some time.  Mount and Kova, well, the less said the better.  Nothing in attack or defense.  Passengers.

Credit to City on a very good performance.  That was the standard, and no longer angry over such poor performances.  Could have been 6-0 if they wanted it, but completely took foot off the gas.  Now the ugly facts:

  • This season we have P17, W7 D5 D5, F32 A21.  Pretty poor in itself
  • Against top half teams P8, W1 D4 L3, F8 A10.  Terrible.  Exclude the West Ham 3-0 win (they sit 10th) and those stats read P7 W0 D4 L3 F5 A10.  That is enough to get any manager fired
  • Bottom half results are as expected, excluding the recent drop off with losses to Wolves and Arsenal
  • This isn't a blip - we've taken 8 of last 24 points.  That is 1/5 of the season; very hard to recover from that

Beyond the results, Frank has to recognize and address the following:

  • Psychological reasons behind such poor performances.  Confidence has gone, and mentality is too fragile
    • Part of me believes this came from poor selections and player positions
  • No real system or pattern of play
  • No ability to play vertical thru balls (collectively as a team this stat is lower than individuals from other teams)
  • Substitutions like for like - no intent to change what isn't working
  • Players don't appear to be working particularly hard (fitness and mental fatigue concerns
  • No coordinated press; it is a half press but teams then bypass our midfield
  • No midfield
  • 17 games in and don't know best 11
  • Limited development of players (excluding Reece James, but when do we sign players and they actually improve)
  • Lowest points per game of any Roman era Manager (12 total) 1.67, 49% win rate.  AVB was 48% and 1.70 PPG.  
  • Fourth lowest PPG of any Chelsea PL Manager (including pre Roman)

Quite the hill to climb.  

 

I have nothing to add in it. You said it all. 

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30 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

Not to throw Jody under the bus or anything but I hope the board try bringing in an experienced number 2 to help Frank rather than sack him. 

Frank himself decided to go with young coaches which was always a decision i felt would either pay off handsomely or backfire badly, unfortunately it's looking like the latter.

The one thing I thought we would be safe from with young coaches though was crap dinosaur football but that hasn't been the case of late.

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56 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Mental folk want to sack Lampard... some of the same people who had us down for a title challenge because we went 17 unbeaten and were fawning over him.

 

I’d suggest people calm down and revisit it tomorrow. Teams have slumps. You can’t keep going around sacking managers for a month of poor form. It’s insanity.

Sorry but you can also say its insanity persisting with a manager with very little experience who's team looks lost,and extremely void of ideas. 

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  • coco changed the title to *Officially sacked* but still Super Frank Lampard
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