Super Frank Lampard

[CFCCAN]

Just wondering how many romantic appointments of club 'legends' have ever really worked?  Maybe Zindane and currently seemingly the hobbit up there in Manchester for the time being  at least even he was on the edge for a while, but beyond that even the greatest players seem to be disastrous when it comes to managing...Maradonna immediately comes to mind along with Zola, Shearer and a long list of others, while some have been mediocre at best.  Romantic appointments, while making you feel good in the moment... generally never end well. 

[enigma]

31 minutes ago, Brutos said:

Watching the match again yesterday that was a clear example of Man against boy and am not talking about the players on the field, that was basically pulling your trousers down and giving you a spanking, then watching you walk around with your trousers around your ankles.

It wasn't like that last season though. We beat them. They were playing better then too. It's weird. That was with f**king Alonso, Christensen, Rudiger and Azpi in the back four too. 

[enigma]

10 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

Just wondering how many romantic appointments of club 'legends' have ever really worked?  Maybe Zindane and currently seemingly the hobbit up there in Manchester for the time being  at least even he was on the edge for a while, but beyond that even the greatest players seem to be disastrous when it comes to managing...Maradonna immediately comes to mind along with Zola, Shearer and a long list of others, while some have been mediocre at best.  Romantic appointments, while making you feel good in the moment... generally never end well. 

The thing is, even those coaches you mentioned had previous coaching experience before their first big job. Even Zidane coached the academy side at Real Madrid for two seasons before taking the top job at Real. Let us not forget that Zidane also had Ronaldo and Bale, among others at the club too, which helped massively. Solskjaer also managed Molde before the Utd job. Lampard didn't even do that. He went straight into the Derby job with no prior coaching experience. 

It's actually crazy Derby got to the play off final considering Lampard's lack of experience. This is why I'm torn on Lampard. There's a part of me that still thinks there is a very good manager deep down. He just needs the time and experience. Problem is, does that experience come at Chelsea at the cost of potentially missing out on top four and trophies. I don't know. Only the club can answer that.

Edited January 4, 2021 by enigma

[mm24]

29 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

Just wondering how many romantic appointments of club 'legends' have ever really worked?  Maybe Zindane and currently seemingly the hobbit up there in Manchester for the time being  at least even he was on the edge for a while, but beyond that even the greatest players seem to be disastrous when it comes to managing...Maradonna immediately comes to mind along with Zola, Shearer and a long list of others, while some have been mediocre at best.  Romantic appointments, while making you feel good in the moment... generally never end well. 

Well the guy in charge of City last night was a club legend at Barcelona with no real experience except for managing Barcelona B for a year and he got the job and led Barca in possibly their greatest years. 

You have Antonio Conte that captained and managed Juventus with great succes, Simeone at Atletico, Ancelotti at Milan, Luis Enrique etc. 

[strider6004]

1 hour ago, enigma said:

Also, is there a mentality problem with London clubs? I'm genuinely curious because we have had this mentality problem for a few seasons. Meanwhile that man utd side have shown more grit and determination than we or any London side has. The same could be said for Aston Villa and Leicester too. Pissing me off. 

Utd managed to buy two very decent players in each season that lifted the team, Fernandes and then more recently Cavani,

The players we have bought offensively have not really shone to date. 

[Frankie8Lampard]

3 hours ago, Slojo said:

This sums up a lot of my feelings perfectly. It gives me zero pleasure in writing what I did this morning. I do differ in some ways though, I was never keen on the Frank appointment to begin with, I do think he did a great job last season. 

But I'm not subscribing to this narrative that Frank has it worse than AVB did in 2012. Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Havertz, Callum Hudson-Odoi some of the best talents in Europe right there. Giroud, Abraham, two fantastic backup strikers. Kovacic, Jorginho, Kante, again, these three should be playing much better, they're good players, why aren't they? This is not the "worst chelsea team ever", these are good players that aren't performing well and don't suit the current system they're being told to play. Werner Exhibit A, he doesn't suit this style of play whatsoever. 

Anyway, forget all that for a second. With Frank it's different, I was always going to give Frank a harder time than other managers because of his lack of experience. If things were to go down the sh*t pan, I wouldn't have gave him the same time as other managers. Because he's a club legend is irrelevant to me at this point, this is the manager’s job, I want what’s best for this club. Last season we saw some great moments in the team, how good we were going forward but our defence kept holding us back big time. But what's going on now? We've got better players and we are playing even worse football, like you said, we just can't seem to play through the middle whatsoever... There's no Plan B in our attack, completely one dimensional at the moment. The midfield 3 is just sideways pass, sideways pass, sideways pass, that 20 minute cameo from Jorginho against West Ham showed me something that was deeply missing in this team, a distributor in the middle who will take risks and pass the ball forward for a f**king change.... 

But sadly, Jorginho is not playing well, like many others. 

I was disappointed when I saw someone say that this is the worst team we’ve had in awhile. That just seemed like a cheap excuse to defend Frank and play into “the board didn’t support us” narrative. We have a really good group of players that are highly talented, it’s more clear to me that frank is struggling to play to their strengths with his tactics rather than the other way around. 

[Slojo]

16 minutes ago, Frankie8Lampard said:

I was disappointed when I saw someone say that this is the worst team we’ve had in awhile. That just seemed like a cheap excuse to defend Frank and play into “the board didn’t support us” narrative. We have a really good group of players that are highly talented, it’s more clear to me that frank is struggling to play to their strengths with his tactics rather than the other way around. 

We have some of the best talents in Europe, a very young and hungry team with creativity, pace and even some good experience. 

In no way shape or form is this the worst Chelsea team. I would say Conte's 2nd season Chelsea team was even worse, when he had Bakayoko and Morata, although we did have Hazard... But AVB period was definitely the worst Chelsea period talent wise under Abramovich for sure. We had the characters and leaders, but we lacked pace and creativity, all of our key players were in their 30's. 

[loz]

3 minutes ago, Slojo said:

We have some of the best talents in Europe, a very young and hungry team with creativity, pace and even some good experience. 

In no way shape or form is this the worst Chelsea team. I would say Conte's 2nd season Chelsea team was even worse, when he had Bakayoko and Morata, although we did have Hazard... But AVB period was definitely the worst Chelsea period talent wise under Abramovich for sure. We had the characters and leaders, but we lacked pace and creativity, all of our key players were in their 30's. 

Not sure I'd agree with hungry. They look only half bothered at the moment 

[Slojo]

2 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I suppose I may be thinking with my heart more than head, Lampard has my full backing until the end and I honestly believe he can turn this around. 

Time will tell.

I hope you're right mate, I do envy your support and enthusiasm though. 

[Slojo]

1 minute ago, loz said:

Not sure I'd agree with hungry. They look only half bothered at the moment 

True, but they should be hungry right? Look at Werner and Havertz last season stats wise, Havertz at 20 had better stats than Messi and Ronaldo at that age, he got his opportunity at Bayer and boy did he take it. Werner was lethal at RB and one of the biggest goal threats in the world. I think both of them want to succeed here, but there's a mental block there, especially with Havertz currently. 

The midfield though definitely not, they look half bothered. The only ambition I see coming out of Kovacic and Mount are them striving for the most side passes in a season award, the pair of them are just completely conservative on the ball, especially Kovacic who is the more senior player and absolutely has to step up and take the mantle. I'll let Kante off because I think he's been given too much to do, but he is trying. 

At the moment though it's only Giroud you can rely on, easily our most reliable player. 

[Gol15]

49 minutes ago, mm24 said:

Well the guy in charge of City last night was a club legend at Barcelona with no real experience except for managing Barcelona B for a year and he got the job and led Barca in possibly their greatest years. 

You have Antonio Conte that captained and managed Juventus with great succes, Simeone at Atletico, Ancelotti at Milan, Luis Enrique etc. 

Most managers were professional players. But to succeed you need some luck as well, Pep took over Barcelona at the time when it was pretty much impossible for him to not succeed for example.

Lampard is still building a team, right now we don't have a real structure and we are by all means under-performing, even so he does deserve to finish this season because he has been focusin on making James, Mount, Tammy and Pulisic a vital part of our squad for years to come, he doesn't give up on them and sees them as our future which is a very healthy vision, he's a smart man so I do have huge hopes that he will find a place for Havertz as well that is a massive talent. Lampard made our squad better, the thing that is missing is the result but if we give him this season and if we see how it went, maybe he can prove that he is really building something special for the future.

I would back Lampard 100% if he still wants to sign Rice, the only thing that he needs in my book is to increase our win rate.

But make no mistake, if this project works out we will have one of the best squads in Europe in the next 2 years, we rely on a young squad so when they gain some momentum, fix their injury issues and become more consistent we be a powerhouse once again.

So even if Lampard doesn't get to be the one to do it for us, this is his project that he started and for that I will be forever grateful, Pep didn't make that team of Barcelona, he inherited it, Lampard is trying to make something really special.

[Brutos]

1 hour ago, enigma said:

It wasn't like that last season though. We beat them. They were playing better then too. It's weird. That was with f**king Alonso, Christensen, Rudiger and Azpi in the back four too. 

Which shows we have regressed and not progressed I expected us to compete with city even if we don’t win I expect them to control parts of the game but we didn’t complete at all lucky second half pep took his foot off the accelerator else it could of gotten real ugly.

Probably didn’t want to embarrass Lampard anymore.

[Slojo]

I think it's obvious that there's a real lack of intensity in our games the past month. 

[forbzy]

22 minutes ago, loz said:

Not sure I'd agree with hungry. They look only half bothered at the moment 

I agree, especially in the case of certain individuals. There are some players who have never given up, while others seem to look half hearted (perhaps through lack of confidence in some cases). Frank needs to stick with the reliable, committed players to give himself the best chance. I am sure that part of the challenge is that 2 of the most disappointing players cost a lot of money to the club so there would be eyebrows raised by the board if they are dropped. Nevertheless Frank should not pick players based on their price tag.

[Imran_CFC]

Emotions have been running high lately especially considering last nights result and I completely understand where people are coming from when asking for Lampard to be relieved of his duties. Recently he has seemed tactically somewhat reactionary and a little lost when it comes to his in game management.

However I still back Lampard and most definitely believe he should be given until the end of the season as a minimum, if we completely ignore the credit he has in the bank as a club legend he still has earnt his right to be given the opportunity to see out the rest of the season based upon his performance as a manager from last season. By sacking him now what do we achieve, possibly a top 4 finish at best and even that is a long shot considering the new Manager will need time to find their best formation and playing 11. I still believe we have a better chance at getting top 4 with Lampard then without him, if things do not pick up and we finish mid table then by all means review his performance at the end of the season and give the new manager a pre-season to analyze and implement there ideas on the squad.

I personally would like Lampard to see out his contract, I think Lampard is missing a vital piece to his jigsaw which is a natural CDM. I don't think he wants to play Kante as a CDM and would prefer to deploy him higher up the pitch and I think Jorginho does not fit the style of football Lampard wants to play. Lampard is clearly after Rice to offer the team a physical presence in front of the defense and someone who is tactically disciplined, this would allow him to play Kante and Mount further forward against the likes of City without worrying about the possibility of what will happen if they beat the press.

I am not sure if the board will look to back him with the signature of Rice especially if they are looking at alternative managerial appointments but that is the one position where Lampard has struggled to find a consistent player.

[forbzy]

6 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

Emotions have been running high lately especially considering last nights result and I completely understand where people are coming from when asking for Lampard to be relieved of his duties. Recently he has seemed tactically somewhat reactionary and a little lost when it comes to his in game management.

However I still back Lampard and most definitely believe he should be given until the end of the season as a minimum, if we completely ignore the credit he has in the bank as a club legend he still has earnt his right to be given the opportunity to see out the rest of the season based upon his performance as a manager from last season. By sacking him now what do we achieve, possibly a top 4 finish at best and even that is a long shot considering the new Manager will need time to find their best formation and playing 11. I still believe we have a better chance at getting top 4 with Lampard then without him, if things do not pick up and we finish mid table then by all means review his performance at the end of the season and give the new manager a pre-season to analyze and implement there ideas on the squad.

I personally would like Lampard to see out his contract, I think Lampard is missing a vital piece to his jigsaw which is a natural CDM. I don't think he wants to play Kante as a CDM and would prefer to deploy him higher up the pitch and I think Jorginho does not fit the style of football Lampard wants to play. Lampard is clearly after Rice to offer the team a physical presence in front of the defense and someone who is tactically disciplined, this would allow him to play Kante and Mount further forward against the likes of City without worrying about the possibility of what will happen if they beat the press.

I am not sure if the board will look to back him with the signature of Rice especially if they are looking at alternative managerial appointments but that is the one position where Lampard has struggled to find a consistent player.

Agreed. I think he should be given the rest of the season, even if that doesn't pan out too well and we miss out on top 4 (which looks increasingly likely). I doubt he will get a 3rd year in that case unless there are clear signs of some progress, but he deserves the chance to show that the current poor run is more of a case of confidence/form. This is not just about a sentimental viewpoint. Frank got the job at a time when very few experienced managers would go near it. He took on the position knowing he would have to make do without by far our best player at the time who had just  left for Real, and without any chance of boosting the squad with new signings for a year. Perhaps he overachieved a bit last year and that has led to increased expectations with the additions to the squad this year. His task for now is to find a way to get the team playing with the confidence we showed in October/November, and ideally have us entering the knockout stages of the Champions League in form.

[pcmacca]

The problem with the coaches at Chelsea (Frank and Jody) and even at United are that neither use automatisms for the tactics in training. Instead both teams rely on individual skill to defeat the opposition (United currently have the better scorers, certainly in midfield) and when you come up against a team tactically prepared in the modern way as City were yesterday you would have to have brilliant individual players on top of their form to win but when players do not even do the basics properly (Mount failing to track Gundogan for the first goal), you have no chance. The City players always knew exactly where their team mates should be and played the ball accordingly. This allowed them to be progressive, always moving the ball forward compared to the static and sideways movement of the Chelsea midfield and defence where they are having to look up to make a pass all of the time. Frank and Jody with their limited tactical training are coaches from the 1990's whilst Pep and Klopp are working in the modern era. History and Enthusiasm are no longer enough to be a coach in a top Premier League Team. Yesterday, Frank looked lost and that is because he is. Last year individual skills and youthful bravado brought enough results in a very average league to flatter his own performance.

[RickUK]

No one "wants" Frank sacked, its just when you look at him solely as a manager right now, you cant see where the positives are at the minute. Or provide a good reason why he or the team will turn this around.

 

Its not wanting Frank sacked, out of dislike, its just a case of the job being too big for him in some peoples eyes, and a change might be the best way forward.    Not his fault, he took the job of the club he loved regardless of experience.   But in hindsight without the ban hed have been a million miles away from getting it.  So i think he should drop down the ladder, learn the art of management and tactics further; then in a few years maybe the opportunity will present itself again.    

Lets be real, there is a better chance of 12th place, who are 3 pts off us, catching us than us catching Spurs.   We will probably beat Fulham mind you, but its the games after which concern me.

[Imran_CFC]

8 minutes ago, RickUK said:

No one "wants" Frank sacked, its just when you look at him solely as a manager right now, you cant see where the positives are at the minute. Or provide a good reason why he or the team will turn this around.

 

Its not wanting Frank sacked, out of dislike, its just a case of the job being too big for him in some peoples eyes, and a change might be the best way forward.    Not his fault, he took the job of the club he loved regardless of experience.   But in hindsight without the ban hed have been a million miles away from getting it.  So i think he should drop down the ladder, learn the art of management and tactics further; then in a few years maybe the opportunity will present itself again.    

Lets be real, there is a better chance of 12th place, who are 3 pts off us, catching us than us catching Spurs.   We will probably beat Fulham mind you, but its the games after which concern me.

I haven't seen anyone on the forum state that they want Frank sacked due to a personal dislike and neither have I seen anyone accuse someone of disliking Frank, the discussion has been fairly healthy between people wanting an experienced manager to come in to turn things around or alternatively give Frank the chance to fine tune things and see if they work.

I would admit that last night didnt offer us much in terms of hope however with Ziyech getting back fit and hopefully with 14 days until our next PL fixture it would allow Reece to get back into the frame. I think Chilwell is not 100% so a couple of weeks off will definitely help him get back to his normal levels of performance, Havertz also put in a decent cameo against City and is hopefully getting over his setback from Covid. With the FA cup tie we can quite possibly play those lacking in confidence such as Werner, Havertz, Kovacic and give them an opportunity to work there way back to some form and give others some well needed rest.

I am hoping that a less congested period will help our coaching team to better prepare our squad, our performances during a less congested period with a fit squad were very promising and it was when we lost all our wingers that things spiraled south and losing has really left us down on confidence. 

[Remodez]

1 hour ago, RickUK said:

No one "wants" Frank sacked, its just when you look at him solely as a manager right now, you cant see where the positives are at the minute. Or provide a good reason why he or the team will turn this around.

 

Its not wanting Frank sacked, out of dislike, its just a case of the job being too big for him in some peoples eyes, and a change might be the best way forward.    Not his fault, he took the job of the club he loved regardless of experience.   But in hindsight without the ban hed have been a million miles away from getting it.  So i think he should drop down the ladder, learn the art of management and tactics further; then in a few years maybe the opportunity will present itself again.    

Lets be real, there is a better chance of 12th place, who are 3 pts off us, catching us than us catching Spurs.   We will probably beat Fulham mind you, but its the games after which concern me.

1 bad month does not void all the good he's done thus far. 

Not to mention we tend to be pretty bad/average come this time of year anyway over the past few seasons.

[carrickblue]

From today's Independent

[Lampard] now averages 1.67 points per game, the lowest of any Chelsea manager in the Roman Abramovich era. Of those who have taken charge of the club for at least 20 games since the start of the Premier League (1992), only Glenn Hoddle (1.27), Ian Porterfield (1.28) and Ruud Gullit (1.65) have inferior records.

[mm24]

37 minutes ago, Remodez said:

1 bad month does not void all the good he's done thus far. 

Not to mention we tend to be pretty bad/average come this time of year anyway over the past few seasons.

If everything he had done thus far was so good we wouldn't  be having sh*tty december like we did in his first season.I love Frank ,but you guys come up with way too many excuses for him.His one and only real excuse is that he's inexperienced and even that excuse is going to go out of the window pretty soon because he's been here for a year and half already.

Anyway we have two pretty easy games coming up with that FA Cup tie and Fulham after that .He needs to use those games to gather some momentum before Leicester and Wolves where he needs to find results otherwise he'll be in trouble.

[Brutos]

This sums it up really

 

 

[axman2526]

6 minutes ago, Brutos said:

This sums it up really

 

 

More pundits killing Frank. Surprise surprise 

Easy line, inexperienced manager outdone. But why is it in this November,  December and January period that more expierenced, winners of managers like Jose and Conte, have failed to turn things around?

Think we have become southern softies when it gets cold. Not saying Frank is blameless but he is not the source of all our problems either.

[Wearyourblue]

What boggles my mind is how fans think. Frank earned bank with last year's 66 points, but think AVB was garbage with his 64 points.

Frank was at best bang average last year. Correct me if I'm wrong but the bar before FL last year was 75 points, every Chelsea manager before last season under RA has been sacked for less than 75 points, yet Frank's 66 is supposed to have earned him something, that's just love for the nostalgia.

Since Roman acquired Chelsea we have never gone consecutive years without a top 3 finish. Last season was the third season under Abramovich that we had under 70 points in the premier league. Every season like FL season last year has gotten a manager sacked, but people want to credit him.

I think Frank is struggling so much, that if you took Franks' starting 11, and told Sarri he was not allowed to use any of them, he would still finish ahead of FL.

It'd be what. Anjorin, Abraham, CHO across the top, Ross Barkley, Jorginho, Billy Gilmour in the MF, Alonso, Rudiger, Christensen, Azpi in the back, and Kepa in goal.

I'd still put money on Sarri to have more points with that lineup right now, than Frank does with our current squad.