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Sack or Back ???  

114 members have voted

  1. 1. Sack or Back Frank ?

    • Sack now.
      34
    • Back until the end of the season, unless relegation dooms, then evaluate.
      80


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1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

For all the doom and gloom, is our season going any worse than Arsenal, Spurs or United’s?

And the difference was they all could invest in their squad. None of them are blooding 3/4 youth players game in, game out.

Alright, not a fantastic start to the season but not an absolute car crash either. Early days yet, more positives than negatives so far for me.

I think those three teams have been mismanaged and been poor in the transfer market, wait till Rudi, Kante, James, Cho, rlc come back, our team will be full of youth and hunger, I can sense the envy from here from those teams.

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Meanwhile.

I think the nett effect of using so many young players is starting to show, particularly with the style of play Frank is adopting. The quick one touch football seems to be frenetic with the last pass frequently not find its intended target. At some point we need to put our foot on the ball and control possession because sometimes we seem to be passing it too quickly with no hope of the pass ever reaching anybody. Barclay and Jorghino were both guilty of this at the weekend. Rather than taking control and maybe running with the ball the one touch pass just gets knocked to the opposition.

I understand Frank wants to play the quick route through the field but at some point there has to be a recognition that we are gifting possession too frequently. We either stop this by producing perfect passes every time or we run with the ball a bit more and then pass. I'm not talking about long mazy runs but quick sidesteps or short runs around the opposition. We just seem to be completely intent on passing until we gift possession. Why didn't Mount see more of the ball?

We are not Barca of old so at some point I think we will have to adopt a more pragmatic style of play. The reintroduction of Rudi and Kante will obviously help shore things up but Frank must be disappointed with how Sheffield dominated us in the second half. The quick passing game isn't working at the moment and for how long can the team go without a home win? We need something to build on and a slightly more experienced team may be able to control the game a bit more. I know he's not everybody's cup of tea but Willian's experience of knowing when to run and when to pass will help the team and for me he should start the next game.

It's not all doom and gloom as we are blooding some youth and Kovacic seems to be making his mark. I thought he played well against Sheffield and should now be a regular. Tammy seems to be hitting his stride and his 4 goals are not to be sniffed at. We just need to control the midfield more. When is Kante back? He's crucial.

 

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I reckon this early in the season, Frank hasn't figured out completely his Game play A, let alone B and C. Like most said, the high intensity fast passing game could not be maintained over long period of time, and couple of mistimed passes with everyone running into spaces will bite us on the counter. Having Kante back and playing him in the appropriate role will be crucial to stop counter attack. Defensively, we aren't pressing or defending as an unit, are we capable to press aggressively over the 90 minutes, or we just need to press in our own half? There are so many puzzles to be solved, and it's not going to get sorted after 4 games, probably not even 14.

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5 hours ago, Andy North said:

Meanwhile.

I think the nett effect of using so many young players is starting to show, particularly with the style of play Frank is adopting. The quick one touch football seems to be frenetic with the last pass frequently not find its intended target. At some point we need to put our foot on the ball and control possession because sometimes we seem to be passing it too quickly with no hope of the pass ever reaching anybody. Barclay and Jorghino were both guilty of this at the weekend. Rather than taking control and maybe running with the ball the one touch pass just gets knocked to the opposition.

I understand Frank wants to play the quick route through the field but at some point there has to be a recognition that we are gifting possession too frequently. We either stop this by producing perfect passes every time or we run with the ball a bit more and then pass. I'm not talking about long mazy runs but quick sidesteps or short runs around the opposition. We just seem to be completely intent on passing until we gift possession. Why didn't Mount see more of the ball?

We are not Barca of old so at some point I think we will have to adopt a more pragmatic style of play. The reintroduction of Rudi and Kante will obviously help shore things up but Frank must be disappointed with how Sheffield dominated us in the second half. The quick passing game isn't working at the moment and for how long can the team go without a home win? We need something to build on and a slightly more experienced team may be able to control the game a bit more. I know he's not everybody's cup of tea but Willian's experience of knowing when to run and when to pass will help the team and for me he should start the next game.

It's not all doom and gloom as we are blooding some youth and Kovacic seems to be making his mark. I thought he played well against Sheffield and should now be a regular. Tammy seems to be hitting his stride and his 4 goals are not to be sniffed at. We just need to control the midfield more. When is Kante back? He's crucial.

 

You're saying we're frenetic but Frank thought we moved the ball too slowly on Saturday.

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I'd argue that squandering the lead against Sheffield was almost exclusively down too personal mistakes. Both of their goals were down to ridiculously poor defending from Azpilicueta to begin with and then the same from Zouma when Azpi was beat. Better players in those two positions and i bet you we would have won that game.

Lampard can't do much about the rightback situation right now as Azpi is our only fit option. If Reece James manages to take the step up as we all hope then hopefully that solves the huge issue we currently have at rightback. Rudiger will also come in to help to problem we have at CB. I won't yet say solve as it remains to be seen who Lampard pairs him up with but he's our best CB and will obviously improve us. Personaly i'd like to see Tomori paired up with him, i think he's got all the attributes to become a fantastic CB.

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On 01/09/2019 at 17:01, g3.7 said:

 

there is no comparison between him and lamps as coaches at this stage.

Why not compare Sarri to Pep ? I was a big Sarri supporter, but lets not pretend he never made mistakes, the car crash at city last season where he decided to play the team so far up the pitch we got stuffed was insane. Every fan and their nan knew that to beat city you have to stay compressed. Now that was embarrassing.

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21 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I'd argue that squandering the lead against Sheffield was almost exclusively down too personal mistakes. Both of their goals were down to ridiculously poor defending from Azpilicueta to begin with and then the same from Zouma when Azpi was beat. Better players in those two positions and i bet you we would have won that game.

Lampard can't do much about the rightback situation right now as Azpi is our only fit option. If Reece James manages to take the step up as we all hope then hopefully that solves the huge issue we currently have at rightback. Rudiger will also come in to help to problem we have at CB. I won't yet say solve as it remains to be seen who Lampard pairs him up with but he's our best CB and will obviously improve us. Personaly i'd like to see Tomori paired up with him, i think he's got all the attributes to become a fantastic CB.

Rudiger strikes me as one of the best leaders we have at the club right now and will hopefully provide some calming influence and experience to the back 4. I think Reece may need a bit longer to return to full fitness after injury. I don't think he should be rushed back. I will be interested to see how Azpi does once Rudi is back in the defense.

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41 minutes ago, Dixons said:

You're saying we're frenetic but Frank thought we moved the ball too slowly on Saturday.

That seems to be the case.

The reason I say frenetic is because on too many occasions we keep passing the ball at speed and the last pass doesn't reach its intended target. Barclay and Jorge were both guilty of this. If the opposition close us down it doesn't matter how fast we move the ball, they will get it from us eventually. We need to run with the ball sometimes and pass it on other occasions. We need to mix it up.

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1 hour ago, coco said:

Why not compare Sarri to Pep ? I was a big Sarri supporter, but lets not pretend he never made mistakes, the car crash at city last season where he decided to play the team so far up the pitch we got stuffed was insane. Every fan and their nan knew that to beat city you have to stay compressed. Now that was embarrassing.

we didn't let pep leave so we could appoint sarri, so I don't get the point you are making.

in my view, the club created the conditions for sarri to leave so they could appoint someone more popular with the fans. 

(we could get into arguing about the club briefing against him, and whether he would have left or not if this wasn't the case given the lure of juventus etc etc, but that is my reading of it)

this decision should be considered soberly, in the context of a transfer ban, hazard leaving, and our rivals strengthening.

the truth is there is little evidence to say confidently that lamps is a good coach:

1) the championship is a very volatile league- aside from the very best and the very worst, the other sides all beat and lose to one another.

2) drawing firm conclusions from one campaign is hard. 

3) lamps also had the advantage of being a recently retired great which earns him immediate respect, especially with young / championship players. in time we see that some great players can't sustain this as managers once the player they were starts to be forgotten, or when they start managing players as good as they were.

4) and of course he had a contact book for loans that others would not have.

but there is little evidence to say he's a bad coach either. considering the improved quality of football, willingness to play young players, reaching the playoff final and some financial restrictions, his first season goes down as a qualified success. my point is that looking at chelsea's decision to take a manager with one season's experience in the championship, and that being a qualified success, rather than a avb style dismantling of the league, it has to go down as the most remarkable permanent appointment of a manager ever made by an english club in the last 25 years.

it is an incredible gamble, at a time where we don't have lots of compensatory advantages against our rivals. it is irresponsible of the club, if you analyse it coldly. and if lamps is proven a success, the club will have gotten very lucky.

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One man's "incredible gamble" is another man's "bold choice" 🙂

Barcelona made that gamble with Guardiola a few years back, and that didn't turn out too bad. Granted he had Iniesta, Xavi and Messi to call on.

 

We could well be on the verge of something really special - a homegrown team taken almost entirely from the home countries, playing great football and challenging on all fronts, with a young dynamic, hard-working club legend at the helm.

Glass half full in my house ...

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6 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

we didn't let pep leave so we could appoint sarri, so I don't get the point you are making.

 

The point is you are not comparing like for like, experienced manager v inexperienced manager, so you only get one answer, experienced manager wins, it's a non contest.

 

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23 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

For all the doom and gloom, is our season going any worse than Arsenal, Spurs or United’s?

And the difference was they all could invest in their squad. None of them are blooding 3/4 youth players game in, game out.

Alright, not a fantastic start to the season but not an absolute car crash either. Early days yet, more positives than negatives so far for me.

It's not exactly doom and gloom. More like people are baffled by the way Lamps handled the situation at Sheffield. In the long run, people may come to thank him for putting trust in youth but at the moment, you can't say people aren't justified after blowing a 2 goal lead.

It's an uphill struggle and fans need to manage their expectations now.

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2 hours ago, coco said:

The point is you are not comparing like for like, experienced manager v inexperienced manager, so you only get one answer, experienced manager wins, it's a non contest.

 

I am comparing like for like. A manager is a manager, and they should be judged against the job they do, not their age or experience. 

Our board wasnt forced into appointing lamps. They opted to let sarri leave  to pay £4m for him. 

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6 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

I am comparing like for like. A manager is a manager, and they should be judged against the job they do, not their age or experience. 

Our board wasnt forced into appointing lamps. They opted to let sarri leave  to pay £4m for him. 

Chalk and cheese. One is approaching (fast) the end of his career with one trophy to show for it, the other has just begun his career, however the football pedigree in his family points to he'll probably become a good manager, then factor in he is a better option than Sarri when trying to implement a youth policy with our English players.

I dont know if Sarri was pushed or if he decided to jump, but i do know his heart wasn't in the job, something you will never throw at Frank.

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19 minutes ago, coco said:

however the football pedigree in his family points to he'll probably become a good manager,

His dad never managed, his cousin is a twat and his uncle is extremely dodgy. Darren Ferguson hasn't taken after his father in the managerial stakes so I don't see how his family is relevant to Lamps success or failure.

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5 minutes ago, bluehaze said:

His dad never managed, his cousin is a twat and his uncle is extremely dodgy. Darren Ferguson hasn't taken after his father in the managerial stakes so I don't see how his family is relevant to Lamps success or failure.

Ok forget his family, but surely his long successful playing career at the top should count for something in the long run?

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I don't know if Lampard is going to be a top manager. No one knows that. What we know is he is highly intelligent person who loves the club and has a massive knowledge of winning at top level football. He might fall in this very early Journey with us. It is not all about being intelligent. You have to know people, how to handle personalities, how your management team works, injuries, luck, momentum, other teams you face and at what time and so on.

With our squad we can reach 3rd but that is a massive success. We don't have a bad squad we just have inexperience all over the squad and management.

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59 minutes ago, evissy said:

I don't know if Lampard is going to be a top manager. No one knows that. What we know is he is highly intelligent person who loves the club and has a massive knowledge of winning at top level football. He might fall in this very early Journey with us. It is not all about being intelligent. You have to know people, how to handle personalities, how your management team works, injuries, luck, momentum, other teams you face and at what time and so on.

With our squad we can reach 3rd but that is a massive success. We don't have a bad squad we just have inexperience all over the squad and management.

Good points, I suppose you kind of think and perhaps unfairly expect him to have a trick up his sleeve like the early Mourinho with knowing who to mark and how to psychologically outsmart his opponent.  

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11 hours ago, coco said:

Ok forget his family, but surely his long successful playing career at the top should count for something in the long run?

I don't think the stats indicate that a good player is more likely to make a good manager (and good players start out with the advantages I've outlined). 

Dont misunderstand me, I'm not criticising lamps, im criticising the club- if you are responsible for hiring a manager with blooding young players in mind, how high up the list of appointable candidates do you honestly place lamps at this stage in his career? 

Personally, i don't think he gets into the top ten, even factoring in his history at the club. 

It's lazy by the club - we could have given him more time away from the club to cut his teeth, why was it essential to appoint him now? 

Edited by g3.7
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9 minutes ago, g3.7 said:

 

It's lazy by the club - we could have given him more time away from the club to cut his teeth, why was it essential to appoint him now? 

I said the same myself, much too early. But what other options did we have ? We couldn't keep Sarri because he wanted to leave, that was blatantly obvious by the end of the season, i believe the club wanted him to stay up till when he flew back to Italy to sign for Juve.

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43 minutes ago, coco said:

I said the same myself, much too early. But what other options did we have ? We couldn't keep Sarri because he wanted to leave, that was blatantly obvious by the end of the season, i believe the club wanted him to stay up till when he flew back to Italy to sign for Juve.

Sarri wanted assurances before the final, didn't get them and then the Italians came in for him.

I can understand the club not giving him assurances as he had never won a final and a certain proportion of the fans did not like his football, I guess they didn't think other Italian Clubs would be so keen.

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1 hour ago, g3.7 said:

if you are responsible for hiring a manager with blooding young players in mind, how high up the list of appointable candidates do you honestly place lamps at this stage in his career? 

He'd be top on my list. I don't think there are many others that would put as much faith in our youngsters as Lampard have done so far this season.
 

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2 hours ago, g3.7 said:

Dont misunderstand me, I'm not criticising lamps, im criticising the club- if you are responsible for hiring a manager with blooding young players in mind, how high up the list of appointable candidates do you honestly place lamps at this stage in his career? 

 

Where would I place a recently retired club legend that has been here since the start of the century, part of the most successful teams in club history, was taken under Zola´s wing when he first got here himself to coach young players that have been part of the system since about the start of the century? 

Might go for a Brazilian.

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21 hours ago, g3.7 said:

it is irresponsible of the club, if you analyse it coldly. and if lamps is proven a success, the club will have gotten very lucky.

 

I disagree with you here. It wasn't a sentimental decision by the club. It was a cold hard business decision.

 

Last season saw the most empty seats at SB since Roman arrived. I don't know if those seats were paid for or not, but they were empty, because there was a lot of apathy and a lot of disconnection between fans and club.

 

Furthermore, Solanke had already decided to leave and he wasn't the only one. We were in real danger of losing a great crop of academy graduates, including Callum and Ruben. Instead we're tying them down one by one to long term deals.

 

Frank's arrival also brings in a lot of goodwill to the club. Yes he has everything to prove as a coach, and a lot to learn as we have already seen, but he's a huge asset in terms of profile and reputation and in that context it's a highly sensible appointment. 

 

When you looked at the list of possible candidates he was pretty much the obvious choice.

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  • coco changed the title to *Officially sacked* but still Super Frank Lampard
  • coco changed the title to Super Frank Lampard
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