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Man Utd vs Chelsea (PL) Sun 11th Aug 16:30 GMT

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12 minutes ago, WalterWhiteCFC said:

What’s wrong with our attack we were all over then for most of the game and created far more chances, add in CHO, RLC even Willian who we skate but can still offer a lot in the transition, plus more game time for Tammy, I’m not worried about our attack. 

If there had been a more balanced view from the media rather than the new boy w@nk fest that all of the sky pundits seemed to engage in, you would have thought that some bright spark might have mentioned that for all of the undoubted talent that Wan-Bissaka has got, he clearly was found wanting defensively on a number of occasions. The fact that three or four good quality opportunities fell to Emerson was telling. I thought that he did well enough with his chances, but Hazard he isn't and with Hazard on the pitch i do think we would have scored 2 or possibly 3 goals from those chances.

My concern lies more between the sticks. At this level you cannot have 3 or 4 chances before converting and for Tammy, Bats, or indeed any of our atatcking players to be mentioned in the same conversations as Sane, Sterling, Aubameyang etc, there needs to be a clinical aspect to their game that comes naturally. If that instinct exists then it can be honed and sharpened, but if its not there these players will always be the Bentekes, Welbecks, and Walcotts of this world, needing 4,5, 6 chances before scoring.

 

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18 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

If there had been a more balanced view from the media rather than the new boy w@nk fest that all of the sky pundits seemed to engage in, you would have thought that some bright spark might have mentioned that for all of the undoubted talent that Wan-Bissaka has got, he clearly was found wanting defensively on a number of occasions. The fact that three or four good quality opportunities fell to Emerson was telling. I thought that he did well enough with his chances, but Hazard he isn't and with Hazard on the pitch i do think we would have scored 2 or possibly 3 goals from those chances.

My concern lies more between the sticks. At this level you cannot have 3 or 4 chances before converting and for Tammy, Bats, or indeed any of our atatcking players to be mentioned in the same conversations as Sane, Sterling, Aubameyang etc, there needs to be a clinical aspect to their game that comes naturally. If that instinct exists then it can be honed and sharpened, but if its not there these players will always be the Bentekes, Welbecks, and Walcotts of this world, needing 4,5, 6 chances before scoring.

 

You’re saying a striker can’t take 4,5,6 chances before scoring or he isn’t good?

where are these strikers you are watching that take 1 or 2 chances and score?

Salah last seasons top scorer had 104 shots to score 22 goals, so he needs 5 shots before registering what about chances...

Tammy has a peach of a shot that beat the keeper and his the bar, he missed the chance to run in at the back post and I can’t think of any clear cut chances he missed 

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34 minutes ago, WalterWhiteCFC said:

You’re saying a striker can’t take 4,5,6 chances before scoring or he isn’t good?

where are these strikers you are watching that take 1 or 2 chances and score?

Salah last seasons top scorer had 104 shots to score 22 goals, so he needs 5 shots before registering what about chances...

Tammy has a peach of a shot that beat the keeper and his the bar, he missed the chance to run in at the back post and I can’t think of any clear cut chances he missed 

My point wasn't about this one game, it was making the point that the elite strikers when presented with 2 or 3 really good chances during a game score, and that is where our strikers need to be at.

Hazard would have scored in that game. I don't know where, when or how, but he would have done. I am not saying that either Tammy or Bats haven't got this killer instinct, time will tell. But from what little we have seen of them i am not sure they have, that's all i am saying. In fact, ironically, of the two i actually think that Bats is probably the more natural finisher, either by instinct or luck, great strikers having both commodities in abundance,

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20 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

My point wasn't about this one game, it was making the point that the elite strikers when presented with 2 or 3 really good chances during a game score, and that is where our strikers need to be at.

Hazard would have scored in that game. I don't know where, when or how, but he would have done. I am not saying that either Tammy or Bats haven't got this killer instinct, time will tell. But from what little we have seen of them i am not sure they have, that's all i am saying. In fact, ironically, of the two i actually think that Bats is probably the more natural finisher, either by instinct or luck, great strikers having both commodities in abundance,

But they don’t I just gave you the top scorers stats it takes him 5 shots to score a goal...and Tammy only had one good chance and was slow to react 

Edited by WalterWhiteCFC

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2 minutes ago, WalterWhiteCFC said:

But they don’t I just gave you the top scorers stats it takes him 5 shots to score a goal...and Tammy only had one good chance and was slow to react 

Granted, but what you're quoting there are the cumulative total of all shots. What i was trying to illustrate was that instinctive ability to execute the finish when a really good opportunity presents itself. Something that is bang on. Arguably in our game there were no real gilt edged opportunities, possibly Emerson had one.

Aubameyang was a better example. One really good opportunity and he scores. Welbeck misses in that same position.

As i said time will tell with our players. Regardless of the result or the overall performance i would have loved that chance (half chance really) of Tammy's to have gone in because it would have been an indicator of this killer instinct.

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It’s a shame Bats hold up play and movement isn’t great because he is a very clinical finisher. We need someone like that in the team. His goals against WBA and At Madrid prove that. 

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The stats screamed that it was sloppy play and errors for the goals.

We were pretty shocking after the pen but I thought Utd looked very weak. Our team of a year ago would have capitalised on that, but we just haven't got that poke at the moment.

manuchelstats.png

 

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1 minute ago, Mod Stark said:

The stats screamed that it was sloppy play and errors for the goals.

We were pretty shocking after the pen but I thought Utd looked very weak. Our team of a year ago would have capitalised on that, but we just haven't got that poke at the moment.

manuchelstats.png

 

Wow, when you look at those stats in the context of a 4-0 defeat it highlights either defensive frailties, an error in tactical set up or both.

On the one hand it's encouraging that we are trying to play expansive football, but on the other i dread to think what City or the Scouse may have done to us.

 

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I've seen too many people losing their heads about Frank not being cut out for the elite level already. Sir Alex lost his first game with United to Oxford - he wasn't under a transfer embargo then and Oxford hadn't spent £150m on new signings that year.

 

Obviously we made mistakes all over the pitch but the scoreline definitely doesn't reflect much about the game. I thought their 2nd and 4th goals were lucky to stand, especially the last one with Maguire even waving at the ref to stop the game for Zouma's injury. Yeah we're missing Rudiger and Kante isn't fit, but give the team a chance to adapt.

If we start turning on our individual players like Zouma, he'll be under even more pressure to succeed and will crumble. Not what you want from your supporters, look where Arsenal are after 15 years of slagging off their own squad. Thought it was great the travelling fans cheered off Frank and the playerss went over to them too. The connection between players/manager and fans is not something to take for granted. 

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One of the things that has surprised me most about the fall out since yesterday has been actually the level of doom and gloom...it's as if people weren't prepared for the reality of what this season might be...we haven't bought anyone, have no top striker, played against Utd with key players missing...perhaps my level of expectation was lower than some on here, which is why while obviously disappointed with a heavy defeat, it was also a case of what could go wrong did go wrong...Utd had five shots on goal and scored four times...while we had 18 in total and ended up goal-less.

anyway, I just expected the season to be full of ups and downs...I just hope the ups come soon and regularly. After a season of the dullest football known to man, at least we will be entertained. 

Meanwhile console yourself with the knowledge Chelsea can and will spend a fortune in the market next year whatever happens this season.

Edited by The Brit

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3 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

Granted, but what you're quoting there are the cumulative total of all shots. What i was trying to illustrate was that instinctive ability to execute the finish when a really good opportunity presents itself. Something that is bang on. Arguably in our game there were no real gilt edged opportunities, possibly Emerson had one.

Aubameyang was a better example. One really good opportunity and he scores. Welbeck misses in that same position.

As i said time will tell with our players. Regardless of the result or the overall performance i would have loved that chance (half chance really) of Tammy's to have gone in because it would have been an indicator of this killer instinct.

I agree but as frank said those instinctive goals are normally tammys bread and butter, hence 2 - 25 goal seasons in a row.

From what Ive seen he is our best option, Giroud just doesn’t offer a return unfortunately, no speed, can’t take on players, Bats just isn’t at the top level he has more than enough chances to show what he can do, Tammy can do it all he just lacks experience. 

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People are talking like this is some sort of special season where results don’t matter. The context of the ban and and manager mean nothing. If we’re 15th at Christmas he’s gone. If we don’t go deep in at least one competition he’s gone. 

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8 hours ago, Mod Stark said:

The stats screamed that it was sloppy play and errors for the goals.

We were pretty shocking after the pen but I thought Utd looked very weak. Our team of a year ago would have capitalised on that, but we just haven't got that poke at the moment.

manuchelstats.png

 

Blimey, they only "out-scored" us on goals, fouls and offsides.

If only Morata had played, we would have at least beaten them on the offside count.

 

Edited by Nibs

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6 hours ago, cuppaT said:

People are talking like this is some sort of special season where results don’t matter. The context of the ban and and manager mean nothing. If we’re 15th at Christmas he’s gone. If we don’t go deep in at least one competition he’s gone. 

So you're right behind Frank then.

One bad result and you're looking at worst case scenario.

Admittedly I'm only now just starting to come out of my self imposed football/media boycott. I'm just putting my head above the parapet by coming here today and am glad to say I do not feel as despondent as you. It was one result. One game. Nonetheless a very bad one and one that will be remembered for a long time. It hurt everyone including Frank, the coaching staff and the players.

Frank will not have the luxury of wallowing in self pity and negative thoughts. He is smart and will know he has to learn how to set up against certain teams. He spoke before the season started of how the team will have to learn to play in different ways. He didn't have a fully fit squad and I'm sure he would have started with Kante had he been fully fit. This hinderance meant he had one less top class defensive player on the field than he would have liked. It also meant he was down one player in the keeping possession stakes. And given Kante's usual workload it actually meant he was probably two players down. For me the game was lost in midfield where we gifted possession far too  often and didn't head off their attacks. Kante is crucial when playing against top teams and we may get better results against the lesser teams when he isn't available. I say this because I am concerned about his fitness. I thought he took a really hard hit during the game but carried on. I don't know if it was the hit during the game or the previous injury but he certainly didn't look his usual self.

Back to Frank. He is having to learn quickly and will today know exactly what everybody meant about it coming too soon. He will be gutted about the result but will also know he has to prepare the team for tomorrow's game in Turkey. He will never have felt the pressure he is under today. I hear the voices screaming about the penalty in the champions league final but this is all on him now. He is the focus and there is no protection from a head coach or manager. He is the protection and he has to manage and be accountable for this situation. I still take solace from the fact that Frank is very smart and he will be covering all the bases. In the same breath we mustn't forget he is still learning. He needs to learn how the pressure of the premier league feels. He needs to lose with the team so they all know how it feels. Pep's Barcelona lost their first La Liga game to newly promoted Numancia. It's a bit of stretch to directly compare Chelsea and Barca but Peps team then went on a 20 match unbeaten run after that defeat. They did have a much better squad than Chelsea whereas unfortunately Franks squad has a few holes in it and lacks a bit of quality and experience with the departure of Luiz. (I can't help feel the club wouldn't have sent Ampadu out on loan if they had known Luiz was going to leave.) Frank will be learning from Sunday and will not want to have that feeling again anytime soon. I'm sure he will set up more defensively against Liverpool. In some ways it's not a really important game but another bad defeat could hurt the team. Frank and the team need also need to learn how to win together and the Super Cup game is one that they could really do without at the moment.

For me the Leicester game will bring back some confidence and the atmosphere in the stadium will be something we haven't seen in many a year. They have lost their best defender and we need to be capitalising on that.

COYB.

 

 

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8 hours ago, cuppaT said:

People are talking like this is some sort of special season where results don’t matter. The context of the ban and and manager mean nothing. If we’re 15th at Christmas he’s gone. If we don’t go deep in at least one competition he’s gone. 

It is a special season for a whole host of reasons. We won't be 15th by Christmas and no he won't be sacked if we don't go on a run in the cups.

 

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10 hours ago, cuppaT said:

People are talking like this is some sort of special season where results don’t matter. The context of the ban and and manager mean nothing. If we’re 15th at Christmas he’s gone. If we don’t go deep in at least one competition he’s gone. 

I disagree, Frank has to be given the entire season and then be judged on next season when hes had money to strengthen. The supporters have to accept that this season is going to be an uphill task, we still have a strong enough squad to achieve a respectable finish, hopefully Top Six, but if we dont then so be it.

What will we achieve by getting on Frank's back if things are not going well, he has to be backed by the club and its supporters throughout the season.

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We don't need to spend a fortune. We are in a very similar situation that Liverpool was in Klopp's first term. They lacked a striker, CB and a goalie. During this time they bought the best possible players for those positions in Fimino, Van Dijk and Alisson. They had luck as well but with some patience Frank can deliver similar results. We have a great base for a top European side.

Kepa, Rudiger, Kante + our emerging youth and we could be brilliant side after a couple of seasons.

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They were good with their finishing and Chelsea were poor at the back.

That Man Utd team will still struggle to get anywhere near City or Liverpool.

They barely created any chances and until Zouma's stupid mistake, they were being thoroughly outplayed. That penalty changed the game entirely.

4-0 is a deceptive scoreline to say the least but Chelsea are vulnerable at the back for sure, as we all knew going into the game.

 

 

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They were good with their finishing and Chelsea were poor at the back.

That Man Utd team will still struggle to get anywhere near City or Liverpool.

They barely created any chances and until Zouma's stupid mistake, they were being thoroughly outplayed. That penalty changed the game entirely.

4-0 is a deceptive scoreline to say the least but Chelsea are vulnerable at the back for sure, as we all knew going into the game.

 

 

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27 July 1978, Gillingham 3 Chelsea 1, friendly, first Chelsea game of Frank Lampard's life. Took a while for things to improve.

Edited by chelsea211

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