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4-2-3-1: toilet formation


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32 minutes ago, rtwelch said:

We don't have the quality in the front 3 to play Jorginho, Kante AND Kovacic atm. Liverpool can get away with it because they have a striker that connects and actually scores and two forwards that get 25 goals a piece. We need goals & assists from midfield.

Spot on! + the have fullbacks that will chip in with 20 assists in a season. 

This is why he is trying to play a Barkley/Mount behind the forward to add some goals & assists from the middle of the park. The problem is a Kante who presses high up the pitch can’t work with a Jorginho who prefers to orchestrate moves deep in midfield. The two in midfield need to work in tandem if not you will have a situation like yesterday where they will just sit 2 players on Jorginho. 
 

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The problem with that formation could be the high pressing from our opponent.

The 2 deep midfielders are basically forced to come almost to our own box in order to get the ball and from there it's much harder to shift the game to the opposition half of the pitch.

It's just something Frankie needs to sort out, I don't think the formation is bad given our current players it's maybe our most safe-to-go formation but the tactics around it need to be clearer.

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I guess my first real post here will be what I observed yesterday. As I said in the welcome thread, I am from the US, and yesterday was the first time I got to see an EPL match in person. To me it looked like they were playing a 4-1-4-1 while defending that went to a 4-2-3-1 when attacking. Kante can make diagnosing formations tough because he plays all over the pitch. It also looked like Mount, Pedro, and Pulisic were constantly switching positions, which sometime changed how the shape was visualized.  

I think a bigger part of the problem, beyond shape, is that Chelsea did not have much of an attacking identity last season beyond "give it to Hazard." So this year, with a new manager, no Hazard, and two less strikers, it is going to be difficult to really score early in the season. I do think playing Giroud with Pulisic, Mount, and Pedro behind him may provide the best opportunity to score over the next few weeks. As the season continues, though, I'd like to see more formation variation and Tammy Abraham.

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On 19/08/2019 at 01:54, Pauly said:

It's a particularly poor choice given the players available. It sacrifices depth from the wingers for a higher 10, and the wingers we have (Pedro, Pulisic) are players who you would like to see playing close to / behind Giroud in a 4-3-3. They have to do more defensive work, and end up deeper and wider. So unless we plan on signing James Milner and Mark Albrighton, or playing Willian on the right every game, I don't understand. 

Precisely this. Except maybe Alonso on the left instead.

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Fair to say with 4141 that Leicester played it was a matter of time when our legs would be gone after Liverpool and 120 minutes of intense football. I found the 4231 open on the counter, but it was all down to bad defending and bad passing. Don't think it is a bad formation i prefer it to 433, just because we looked better with 433 in one game doesn't mean 4231 is bad. With all the players back and we gel things will look far better.

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On 19/08/2019 at 21:27, just said:

This thread is a compliment to how Lampard is already revolutionizing football tactics in Europe! He has only been in charge for 3 competitive games and he has already invented a new formation!

When our number 9 actually starts to finish the business and pulls the chain I can see a lot of lesser managers giving up the Christmas tree formation and adopting the toilet formation that Frank has invented.

Thank you Just. I am glad to see someone on here still has the sense to recognise a 4-2-3-1 wide toilet formation when it's on display:

image.png.53c264ae86bbc421d959ce61b34ddfed.png

  

article-2619441-1D67892800000578-326_634x361.jpg

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Frank is still searching for some formation and player combination that will produce goals.  No Hazard, and no proven goal scoring striker.  He has to figure it out on the fly, and he is relying on players proving they can step up.  It's going to take a few games.  We know that CHO & RLC are capable, but they have to rehab and get match fit.  

If we were strong defensively, it would be easier to manage.  But it's tough when you need to score 3 or 4 to overcome how easy we have been to score against.  Having Rudiger back will help shore things up a little.

Maybe we need more of a bidet formation.

Edited by Boston Blue
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there is the slight feeling - not so much just because lamps is the manager, but more the fact that everyone who has ever played for us since 1999 is now on the coaching staff - of having left the house in a rush and telling the babysitter you promised the kids they can do some baking tonight...

and that is fine, because you expect it to be a bit messy.

and yes, licking the spoon is fun.

but then, as the wild pear tree enters its fourth hour, just before the beautiful, revelatory ending, the thought occurs to you: "am I coming home to a cake or has the entire house burned down?"

Edited by g3.7
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5 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

It is a really good article. I do think it undersells systems with lots of freedom. To be honest, I think what Lampard wants is closer to Tottenham than City. Nonetheless, players do need to be more disciplined in maintaining shape. It can open holes (see the Manchester United match), but more importantly, it really limits the counterattack and easy triangles.

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7 hours ago, jking948 said:

It is a really good article. I do think it undersells systems with lots of freedom. To be honest, I think what Lampard wants is closer to Tottenham than City. Nonetheless, players do need to be more disciplined in maintaining shape. It can open holes (see the Manchester United match), but more importantly, it really limits the counterattack and easy triangles.

The Tottenham observation isn't a bad  one. There's more than a bit of his uncle Harry in his style I reckon. 

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I think its a personnel issue at the minute, the consensus seems to be that without Hazard we are going to struggle to score goals this season. Therefore Lampard has sacrificed one of the Central Midfielders to play an attacking mid, one of the reasons for that is Jorginho, Kante & Kova will not give you much in the attacking third of the pitch. The issue with this seems to be that players are taking time adjusting to 4-2-3-1 from 4-3-3 which we played majority of last season, players are getting caught out of position creating huge gaps in midfield and this is understandable. 

I personally believe if we had the transfer window available we may not have signed Kova and gone after a Central Midfielder who may have been able to offer a little more going forward. I think one of the biggest problems for us has been the injury to RLC as I see him being the missing piece to the way that Lampard wants to play, he allows us to play 4-3-3 and offer us balance between attack and defense. I think once RLC is up to speed Lampard will revert to 4-3-3 as his go to formation to create that balance but for the mean time itll be 4-2-3-1 against teams outside the top 6 and potentially 4-3-3 against the top teams with the usual 3 in Midfield.

I think we should continue to play 4-2-3-1 however Lampard needs to sacrifice a attacking mid especially if we are a goal up and we are losing control in midfield similar to the Leicester game. We lost our momentum in the 2nd half and found it incredibly difficult to wrestle it back I just felt at the time that Pedro shouldve been replaced by Kova a lot earlier to gain control again.

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On 21/08/2019 at 04:46, g3.7 said:

there is the slight feeling - not so much just because lamps is the manager, but more the fact that everyone who has ever played for us since 1999 is now on the coaching staff - of having left the house in a rush and telling the babysitter you promised the kids they can do some baking tonight...

and that is fine, because you expect it to be a bit messy.

and yes, licking the spoon is fun.

but then, as the wild pear tree enters its fourth hour, just before the beautiful, revelatory ending, the thought occurs to you: "am I coming home to a cake or has the entire house burned down?"

hahaha...Both! But it's all gonna be worth it when that sweet sweet chocolate hits my lips.

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