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Kai Havertz coming to Chelsea


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45 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

No he didn't. See above. Thank you mr. Laughing stock. First you tried to make my view about him all about 1 pass only, now you're insulting me, I think I won this arleady.

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2020/09/14/match-report--brighton-vs-chelsea-

The selection
There is always much interest in how the first line-up of the season shapes up but it was uncertain when the team sheets were revealed exactly who would play where. There were options with the 11 chosen but once the whistle blew it was clear it would be Ruben Loftus-Cheek operating centrally behind Werner, with Havertz on the right and Mason Mount on the left.

From the Chelsea website. We played a 4231 with Havertz on the right. Not a 4222 like that sh*t posted above.

Think it's bedtime for you. 

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9 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2020/09/14/match-report--brighton-vs-chelsea-

The selection
There is always much interest in how the first line-up of the season shapes up but it was uncertain when the team sheets were revealed exactly who would play where. There were options with the 11 chosen but once the whistle blew it was clear it would be Ruben Loftus-Cheek operating centrally behind Werner, with Havertz on the right and Mason Mount on the left.

From the Chelsea website. We played a 4231 with Havertz on the right. Not a 4222 like that sh*t posted above.

Think it's bedtime for you. 

You already lost bro, look above :laugh2: You went from "he had a terrible debut you only focus on 1 pass" to "He played as a wide midfielder" even though you first said he played as a winger :wink:

Take theand try not to insult other members of the forum as soon as you're exposed, it can happen to anyone.

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1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

No ones ripping him to pieces or not going to give him a chance, people just have an issue with people saying he had a good debut. If CHO was on having that performance no one would have an issue saying it was pretty sh*t. 

I was referring to Madrid fans ripping players.  I think most are sticking up for him on here to be honest.  He's more than likely going to put in a few more performances like that before he's properly up and running.  Just a few murmurings of discontent from the fans already, let's see how patient fans on here are after a month or so.  I'm just hoping people have some common sense and give him time before judging him, and by that I mean a few months.  I mean some players only show their true potential in their second season, just look at Kepa... oh wait he got worse.

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14 minutes ago, DarkMata said:

I was referring to Madrid fans ripping players.  I think most are sticking up for him on here to be honest.  He's more than likely going to put in a few more performances like that before he's properly up and running.  Just a few murmurings of discontent from the fans already, let's see how patient fans on here are after a month or so.  I'm just hoping people have some common sense and give him time before judging him, and by that I mean a few months.  I mean some players only show their true potential in their second season, just look at Kepa... oh wait he got worse.

You would think the morons who were calling Pulisic out after a few weeks would have learned to shut the f**k up, unfortunately they wont have and will continue to spew their nonsense all over the place.

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Quality debate this. About the quality of a player in his first match 5 days into a stint with a new club, teammates and country, without a preseason and in a team where most players are still regaining match fitness. Wait for a few games, the situation is exceptional. I doubt anyone could have done much given the circumstances.

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1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

You already lost bro, look above :laugh2: You went from "he had a terrible debut you only focus on 1 pass" to "He played as a wide midfielder" even though you first said he played as a winger :wink:

Take theand try not to insult other members of the forum as soon as you're exposed, it can happen to anyone.

I never changed my argument. You said he was played out of position, i've proved he wasn't.

https://m.football-lineups.com/team/Bayer-Leverkusen/

Leverkusen's starting formations last season. Inter and Rangers in Europe and Leverkusen played a 4231. 

https://www.transfermarkt.us/kai-havertz/leistungsdaten/spieler/309400/saison/2019/plus/1

Kai's position in those games, both at 'RW'. Or on the right of a trio behind a lone striker. The same as what he played the other night for us. 

I can keep proving you want if you'd like? He wasn't in an unknown position and he didn't have a good game. 

40 minutes ago, DarkMata said:

I was referring to Madrid fans ripping players.  I think most are sticking up for him on here to be honest.  He's more than likely going to put in a few more performances like that before he's properly up and running.  Just a few murmurings of discontent from the fans already, let's see how patient fans on here are after a month or so.  I'm just hoping people have some common sense and give him time before judging him, and by that I mean a few months.  I mean some players only show their true potential in their second season, just look at Kepa... oh wait he got worse.

Pulisic took months to really settle in at Chelsea, i imagine Kai will take even longer with a second language and the extended break everyone has ended up having. For me this is a season for the players to gel together then we challenge for silverware next year. 

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Just now, RIP Mourinho said:

I never changed my argument. You said he was played out of position, i've proved he wasn't.

https://m.football-lineups.com/team/Bayer-Leverkusen/

Leverkusen's starting formations last season. Inter and Rangers in Europe and Leverkusen played a 4231. 

https://www.transfermarkt.us/kai-havertz/leistungsdaten/spieler/309400/saison/2019/plus/1

Kai's position in those games, both at 'RW'. Or on the right of a trio behind a lone striker. The same as what he played the other night for us. 

I can keep proving you want if you'd like? He wasn't in an unknown position and he didn't have a good game. 

He didn't play as a winger, he was a wide midfielder, just because you found a handful of games where he played as the inside-forward on the right wing it doesn't prove that he played that position on his debut at all, there is a difference from playing as a winger and as a wide midfielder. He's 21 years old only, he also played a handful of games as a striker, just like RW it's a more advanced position, he was never used in a deeper position like Lampard used him on his debut, even so he did ok.

A RW with 7 recoveries and 3 tackles? He was playing much deeper than in Leverkusen because he was not a RW, and the Leverkusen fan that is on this forum agrees with me.

Take the L and stop whining, his debut was decent.

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Can't expect much from him in that game, he's literally only just joined, has been training with the squad for less than a week and is only recently back from his holidays. You need to also factor in that he's still only 21 and has literally just moved to another country. He will need time to get up to speed

Just hope some people don't write him off like they decided to write Pulisic off when he first joined. He went from being someone that isn't good enough for Chelsea to one of our best players in a season

Also fair play to him, he ran back half of the field to make a tackle after losing possession. That's the type of mentality we want in our dressing room 

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34 minutes ago, DarkMata said:

Transfermarkt is pretty damn accurate with its stats and this is what they have for Kai's position last season and vs Brighton.

1958145760_ScreenShot2020-09-16at16_56_34.thumb.png.e3690fbab7e7dfd47130234f011b2be1.png

997873482_ScreenShot2020-09-16at16_57_01.png.5061538b9b2134231dc061cbd3a113a8.png

Whoscored has the 4-2-2-2 formation which I posted on the previous page, with RLC ahead of Kai, Transfermarkt has this:

N.thumb.png.a47dbe2119145ff6681603613ceec242.png

Still RLC is shown ahead of Kai just in a different formation, this is a 4-4-2 and Kai is a WIDE MIDFIELDER, otherwise it would mean that we played a 4-2-4 formation which really wasn't the case as Kai was getting the ball deep most of the time and his stats show which kind of a game he played...

He clearly isn't a wide midfielder he is an attacking midfielder first and foremost and that's what he should play, I don't think that Mount should be playing wide either.

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48 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

N.thumb.png.a47dbe2119145ff6681603613ceec242.png

Still RLC is shown ahead of Kai just in a different formation, this is a 4-4-2 and Kai is a WIDE MIDFIELDER, otherwise it would mean that we played a 4-2-4 formation which really wasn't the case as Kai was getting the ball deep most of the time and his stats show which kind of a game he played...

He clearly isn't a wide midfielder he is an attacking midfielder first and foremost and that's what he should play, I don't think that Mount should be playing wide either.

If you click the tab that says line-ups it tells you the positions. 

1260858862_ScreenShot2020-09-16at18_35_10.thumb.png.1ca2a09490361274806845ea4ea2130a.png

 

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23 minutes ago, DarkMata said:

If you click the tab that says line-ups it tells you the positions. 

1260858862_ScreenShot2020-09-16at18_35_10.thumb.png.1ca2a09490361274806845ea4ea2130a.png

 

4-4-2 means he was a RM or they got it wrong and he was supposed to play more forward in a 4-2-4 as the RW (I didn't notice that). Or it's just an outdated position name that they don't use anymore (Right midfielder)...

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3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

4-4-2 means he was a RM or they got it wrong and he was supposed to play more forward in a 4-2-4 as the RW (I didn't notice that). Or it's just an outdated position name that they don't use anymore (Right midfielder)...

The exact name of the position doesn't really matter, I'm pretty sure Frank wanted him to be more attacking thats why he's here, but we weren't very attacking as a team all game.  I think the 2 in midfield where out numbered causing Kai and Mount to trackback more than Lampard expected.  The fact they had more possession than us shows we where unable to control the game.  If we had 60-70% of possession that we normally do vs the lower teams it would have given the likes of Kai more licence to get forward and we could have pinned them more in their own half resulting in everyones position being higher up the pitch.  

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7 hours ago, UnexpectedGuest said:

Kai did play as a RW for us last season, but when I watched the Chelsea game I felt like he was positioned very wide in comparison to his games with us. He´s not a natural winger, he obviously lacks the pace and acceleration for it. He´s a tall guy after all. He likes to cut inside on his left foot from that position, you won´t see him making runs down the touchline and putting in crosses. He occupies basically the same spaces that Messi does in Barcelona. Opening up the wing for the full-back and trying to receive the ball between the lines and turn. And I am obviously not comparing him to Messis quality, he just uses similar positions.

 

Besides the fact that he looked a bit nervous and sloppy (the sloppiness isn´t out of the ordinary with him sometimes), I think the game didn´t really suit him as Brighton had more posession than you and he barely had players around him offensively to link up with. I just hope for you guys that Lampard finds the right place for him to shine.

@Gol15 @RIP Mourinho et al. Why don't you all try to read the learned opinion from our Leverkusen friend here? He played wide right, not as wide as Lampard played him against Brighton. He is obviously not a winger.

also, if CHO had put the same performance after being at Chelsea for one week and one game, he would have been given the benefit of the doubt. As it stands, he would have been called off as Loftus-Cheek has been, and probably right so.

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37 minutes ago, RMH said:

@Gol15 @RIP Mourinho et al. Why don't you all try to read the learned opinion from our Leverkusen friend here? He played wide right, not as wide as Lampard played him against Brighton. He is obviously not a winger.

also, if CHO had put the same performance after being at Chelsea for one week and one game, he would have been given the benefit of the doubt. As it stands, he would have been called off as Loftus-Cheek has been, and probably right so.

I did agree with UnexpectedGuest. I argued about the same point, I only took it further and discussed about it because you see some people here think that our gameplan was flawless and that nobody was played out of position...

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I guess fans can't be objective about criticism nowadays. He played an average game whilst barely having any touches and a bad pass. 

Give him time. He just recently moved overseas, in a new environment with new people, in a new league speaking a foreign language for the first time.

Even C.Ronaldo had a year or two before his breakout season.

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10 hours ago, Bluesince66 said:

Jesus, we need to give the boy time,it will take at least a month or 2 to really start to settle, and dropping him from games won't help him.Our fans at times can be so impatient. 

My thought is that he hasn't even been with Chelsea long enough to likely learn everyone's name, but fans are expecting him to immediately show some creative wizardry.  

Being creative is part knowing your team-mates, having a read on where they are going to go and what they are going to do so that you can make split second decisions on what to do with the ball.  It's really hard to be that with a bunch of guys you just met a few days ago.  To my knowledge Timo is the only dude out there that Kai has ever played on the same team with before.  

Pulisic had his struggles at the beginning of the season last year too, and the whole time Lampard was basically like "Chill out, he's young and it's his first year in the EPL, give him time." and it worked out and he played so well late in the season that Lampard awarded him the #10.  And in that case I will point out that Pulisic had the advantage of a full offseason of training with the team.  

Kai just landed like a couple days ago, didn't have a full offseason to train with the team, just a few days.  He is also a young player and he has to get used to everyone speaking English as it's not his primary language (also unlike Pulisic)   

I mean if there was ever a time to say "let's have some patience here" it's now.  

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We definitely played 4231, and Havertz had a quite game on the right. 

Not that it really matters, he has barely trained, and even though he has played the position well before, i think the main reasons he didnt shine were fitness, and familiarity with his team mates, and Lampards tactics. 

No drama's I dont think anyone would expect him to hit the ground running, i think Ziyech will take time aswell, since his last competitive game was February. 

Plenty more to come from Kai.

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On 16/09/2020 at 21:23, Gol15 said:

 

N.thumb.png.8fcfbcc60787fd77e06ed300c26c6dea.png

 

I'm not sure where this chart is from but it's misleading. Unfortunately my provider blocks screenshots but even from minutes 5-10 you can clearly see that Chelsea's formation is 4-2-3-1

 

Quote

In front of him RLC was trying to occupy the same position where Kai would naturally go to, this also prevented him from making more passes in the final third.

Was this actually the case, or is it more a of a post-hoc justification? Havertz didn't make many passes in the final third because he saw so little of the ball, and he saw so little of the ball because he would often take up unfamiliar positions (to the rest of the team).

Watching the game on replay it was extremely weird that both Jorginho/Kante and Christensen/Zouma looked for the left-sided Alonso/Mount rather than playing to James/Havertz on the right. I don't know why the attack was so left-side oriented other than perhaps it was Lampard's instruction to take advantage of the space left behind Lamptey.

One thing I noticed with Havertz is he tried to play little exchanges with Kante/Jorginho but never received the return ball. Part of that is down to unfamiliarity because as the top threat at Leverkusen, he demands the ball, whereas at Chelsea he starts off as just another cog in the machine. Part of it was him not reading the tempo of Brighton's press very well, as he would await the return ball in a compromised position with a defender or two breathing down his neck. However, we also need to recognise that recieving the ball in tight spaces is a huge part of his game and his talent, and the other players need to build their own confidence in giving him the ball too.

 

 

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