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The Rising Sun

How to end this season ?

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With VAR already making a great job of cocking up this season already, we cant just allow the game to fall into a free-fall of changes, either on the pitch or in the league demographics. Their will be a plethora of changes for next season off the pitch, but we need to stick to the plan, 20 teams play each other home/away over 9 months, if that cannot be achieved then we should cancel it all until a vaccine is in mass production.

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What would happen if we allow titles and promotion to be awarded after 29 games, if next season their is another outbreak, but this time it comes just 19 games into the season, then you have to do the same thing, which is ridiculous. 38 games in under 10 months, are its void.

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SkySports 2021 social distancing schedule:

6pm - Come fish with me. 

7pm - Ready, Steady, Hook.

8pm - Strictly Come Angling.

9pm - The Great British Lake Off.

10pm - Barbel Hunt

 

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1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

End the season. Give Liverpool the title. relegate no one. Promote Leeds and West Brom. Cancel the league cup. Relegate 4 next season and promote 2.

It's been the most sensible solution for months. Why are we f**king about with any other scenario. 

 

Your proposal means there would be an extra 2 teams in the Premier League. That means an extra 4 games. I also think the teams below Leeds & West Brom might have something to say about that solution.

Nobody has come up with a solution as to how next season starts so at the moment there is no next season. I can't see how you can have crowds back in a stadium before everybody has been vaccinated. If the virus remains it will spread like wild fire in packed stadiums. There may be a vaccine by the end of the year if we are lucky and maybe the end of this season can be played a year later.

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4 minutes ago, Andy North said:

Your proposal means there would be an extra 2 teams in the Premier League. That means an extra 4 games. I also think the teams below Leeds & West Brom might have something to say about that solution.

Nobody has come up with a solution as to how next season starts so at the moment there is no next season. I can't see how you can have crowds back in a stadium before everybody has been vaccinated. If the virus remains it will spread like wild fire in packed stadiums. There may be a vaccine by the end of the year if we are lucky and maybe the end of this season can be played a year later.

That's why I said cancel the league cup. If I was the 3rd best team in the Championship, 6 points off promotion places. I would rather the best two teams were not in the league next season. So yes, I imagine they should be quite happy.

Your second point does make sense. The PL will still be profitable with all games behind closed doors. But the football league will need fans otherwise it is not going to survive. I don't know how we solve that issue. 

1 hour ago, dkw said:

But thats basically creating 2 completely different rules for both ends of the league, the whole thing has to be completely consistent from top to bottom.

Why?

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1 hour ago, coco said:

What would happen if we allow titles and promotion to be awarded after 29 games, if next season their is another outbreak, but this time it comes just 19 games into the season, then you have to do the same thing, which is ridiculous. 38 games in under 10 months, are its void.

Why? After 19 games you could void it.

If Leeds and West Brom were level on points with Fulham, I would propose they stay where they are. But they aren't. If Liverpool were 1 point ahead of Man City, I would propose no one wins the league and it is voided. If half the season was left to play, I would propose voiding it.

Why does everything have to be so black and white!

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1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

End the season. Give Liverpool the title. relegate no one. Promote Leeds and West Brom. Cancel the league cup. Relegate 4 next season and promote 2.

It's been the most sensible solution for months. Why are we f**king about with any other scenario. 

Yes that was an option that crossed my mind when this all started, but since then, I've come to the opinion that you can't do one thing at one end of the table i.e promotion and title but do something different at the other end i.e no relegation, but saying that, this is still better than trying to somehow finish the season with all sorts of idea's such as neutral stadiums, foreign countries etc, why can't the football authorities who have made themselves look disgusting and thoughtless with how they have behaved, man up and get some respect back by announcing the season void and that they will be working to start next season when it is safe to do so. Stop having all these stupid meetings with 'Project Restart' (while rest of country is trying to keep people alive) and keep their head down and quietly go about making sure clubs can survive all this and the new season starts when ready to do so.

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40 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Why? After 19 games you could void it.

If Leeds and West Brom were level on points with Fulham, I would propose they stay where they are. But they aren't. If Liverpool were 1 point ahead of Man City, I would propose no one wins the league and it is voided. If half the season was left to play, I would propose voiding it.

Why does everything have to be so black and white!

Agreed, it should be a case by case basis.

For example if the final in Baku was called off on 50 minutes at 1-0 and was unable to be replayed then we shouldn't have been awarded the trophy.

If it was called off on 85 minutes at 4-1 then my stance is the opposite.

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12 minutes ago, Argo said:

Agreed, it should be a case by case basis.

For example if the final in Baku was called off on 50 minutes at 1-0 and was unable to be replayed then we shouldn't have been awarded the trophy.

If it was called off on 85 minutes at 4-1 then my stance is the opposite.

But their are literally millions of different scenarios, you have to draw the line somewhere, where do you draw it ?  is it right to draw the line after the event ?

Ok lets say 19 games is a void, and 29 games is a viable end point, where between 19 and 29 does the switch happen ?

What if we were leading the league by 2 points after 25 games ? or 1 point after 24 games ? or 3 point lead after 26 games? where is the line between void(19) and viable end(29).

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Some reports say that our players that are currently not in London have been told to fly back, implying that the club has some info and that maybe there might be some training sessions soon.

Ironically at the same time Juventus has around 7-10 players that are not in Italy at the moment and nobody is asking them to return, Serie A will not continue from the looks of it.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, coco said:

But their are literally millions of different scenarios, you have to draw the line somewhere, where do you draw it ?  is it right to draw the line after the event ?

Ok lets say 19 games is a void, and 29 games is a viable end point, where between 19 and 29 does the switch happen ?

What if we were leading the league by 2 points after 25 games ? or 1 point after 24 games ? or 3 point lead after 26 games? where is the line between void(19) and viable end(29).

Like @bisright1 said it shouldn't be black and white, a logical conclusion should be made weighing the length of time to go up against the points/match lead/deficits, my two hypotheical examples re Baku demonstrating the differences at both ends of the scale.

For example in 2002/2003 Sunderland and West Bromwich were about 20 points from safety while West Ham and Bolton were scrapping to avoid the third and final spot. In the event that that season ended early the former two should have been sent down while the latter two didn't with no Champion announced as it was too close between Arsenal and United.

Edited by Argo

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1 hour ago, bisright1 said:

That's why I said cancel the league cup. If I was the 3rd best team in the Championship, 6 points off promotion places. I would rather the best two teams were not in the league next season. So yes, I imagine they should be quite happy.

Your second point does make sense. The PL will still be profitable with all games behind closed doors. But the football league will need fans otherwise it is not going to survive. I don't know how we solve that issue. 

Why?

I think you would rather be in the Premier League with them. I'm sorry I don't see what the League cup has got to do with it. Do you mean next seasons League Cup?

Its all a total cock up and somewhere along the line somebody is going to get treated unfairly. At this point in time nobody knows when football of any sort will recommence and it may be that European competition won't get back to normal for a couple of seasons. We should just cancel the whole season and start again when we can.

Liverpool have been a beacon of morality over the years with the deaths at the Hillsborough disaster weighing heavily on their minds and for years their fans sought recognition of what happened on that dreadful day. Of all the fans around the country to understand that there are bigger things than football it is the Liverpool fans that should understand this. They should understand that the safety of the fans is paramount and that this season has been overtaken by events beyond anybody's control. I know they were very unlikely to have been caught but this season is marred by the tens of thousands that have died from Covid-19.

If this season really can't be played out I think Liverpool may be prepared to forego the Premier League title without too much complaint. The 2019/20 campaign would go down in Premier League history as the most worthy of injustices and would never be forgotten.

 

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This is STILL a thing eh? All primarily about money and secondary about Liverpool winning the title, no care about the lives it impacts.

All the resources it drains from the NHS

The players safety

The club staffs safety

The fans safety, when the morons inevitably gather at stadiums (especially those with something to celebrate)

All that dont matter because of money. Let the PL take a hit, they have racked in loads of the years. Not to mention the wages of many top players could be used to support them, their families and many, many other players AND clubs lower down 

Much a debate on the fairest way to end the season and maintain sporting integrity, but nothing the official channels put out does that.

How about this?

Nobody is relegated, nobody is promoted.

The current top two (or three, or four if level on points etc) from Championship, league 1 and 2  promotion places receive an EQUAL share of TV  (or bonus) money from the league they would have been promoted to based on their current standing.

No titles handed out, cups won already I.e. league cup voided out.

European places can be decided IF we can even have european games next season at a later date.

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What is quite clear is we all agree that none of us are interested in seeing some forced attempt at ending the season. We just differ slightly on what should happen if we end the season today with edge cases. 

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It does appear that a lot of fans have moved on and are more concerned with more personal issues. This has become more serious than football.

I understand why the Premier League etc are trying to work out what to do. It is their lively hood and at some point we would all dearly love there to be a game to go back to. The problem is that this crisis is so much bigger than they can handle. They can't decide anything without the government allowing them to start playing or re-opening the stadiums. They have no power at the moment and the longer this goes the less chance there is of the game being the same when it comes back.

This crisis could finish off a lot of smaller clubs and rebuilding gets harder and harder every day. The bigger clubs are also in trouble. Sponsorship deals could easily collapse and Sky/BT are losing advertising revenue like never before. No gate receipts, no TV money, sponsorship deals collapsing etc. This is very serious for football and we will see who the real sports people are at some point.

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Posted (edited)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52529679

What impact could a full 2020-21 Premier League season without fans have on clubs' finances?

With matches likely to be played behind closed doors for an extended period because of bans on mass gatherings amid the coronavirus pandemic, no fans means no matchday revenue.

Football Association chairman Greg Clarke has said it is hard to see fans returning to matches "any time soon" and the Premier League is preparing for the possibility of playing next season without fans.

Increasingly lucrative broadcasting deals and commercial opportunities mean matchday income contributes a smaller proportion of total revenue to clubs in the modern era than before - but it can still have a significant impact.

And it is the bigger teams who stand to lose more.

Football finance lecturer Kieran Maguire uses eight charts to show the potential financial impact of a 2020-21 season behind closed doors.

Who makes the most from matchdays?

The 'Big Six' clubs in the Premier League (Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United and Tottenham) had a collective matchday income of £495m in 2018-19, which represented 73% of the total made in the Premier League.

image.png.090f5cb1b16a443a0ccd87a35724fdf2.png

*Palace and Newcastle have not published 2018-19 accounts so 2017-18 figures used

Manchester United, whose Old Trafford stadium has the highest capacity and average attendance in the Premier League, generated over £4m per match in 2018-19.

There were eight teams in total making over £1m per home fixture during the season.

image.png.25c01ab67f4923bb9a923f198a468e37.png

Palace and Newcastle have not published 2018-19 accounts so 2017-18 figures used

 

How important is matchday income?

In the Premier League's first season in 1992-93, matchday income generated £89m (43%) out of a total of £205m.

The matchday share is now only 13%, although the absolute figure has increased to £677m.

image.png.f00431dc6ffe3539012451220389698f.png

However, within those totals there is a range of income from matchday fans.

image.png.6db4385b9ce29e1eb4b80d0d9dbaedb8.png

 

Palace and Newcastle have not published 2018-19 accounts so 2017-18 figures used

This is because of a combination of stadium capacity differences, participation in domestic and European cup competitions and some clubs having more lucrative corporate hospitality.

Arsenal generated nearly a quarter of their total income from matchday last season, which makes them vulnerable financially to an extended period without matches taking place.

And who has money in the bank?

Arsenal had the second highest cash reserves last summer but much of that will have been spent since.

image.png.a453c6852c2c6fb2cd2d463e95ec5e44.png

Palace and Newcastle have not published 2018-19 accounts so 2017-18 figures used

Matchday income and wages

Fans often claim they pay players' wages. While this is true when taking into consideration the global broadcasting deals paid for by fan subscriptions, matchday income represents 22% of the total wage bill.

Again, there is a wide variation in terms of the contribution made by fans of individual clubs.

The fans of Arsenal and Tottenham, both with 60,000-plus capacity stadia and significant corporate and football tourist matchday income, contribute over 40p in every £1 of wages.

At the other end of the scale there were seven clubs whose fans' matchday contributions made up 10p or less per £1 of wages.

image.png.f197c1ca241fe19cb16145896a9e44ef.png

Palace and Newcastle have not published 2018-19 accounts so 2017-18 figures used

The Premier League total wage bill for 2018-19 was just over £3bn and wages have increased by 2,811% since 1992-3, compared to a rise in general inflation during the same period of 108%.

image.png.c014ef2d081e67b973e24ac4ee5e85d7.png

If there is a shutdown for a full season then clubs' wage bills will fall as there will be fewer matchday staff required in areas such as catering, security and stewarding. These costs, however, make up a relatively low element of the overall wage cost.

Manchester United, for example, employed 3,340 staff on matchdays at Old Trafford. Assuming they are on the national living wage and working a six-hour shift, this works out at less than £5m over a year - United's total wage bill in 2018-19 was £332m.

Profits and losses

Premier League clubs made a collective loss of £384m in 2018-19.

This was underwritten by a combination of player sales and owner handouts. With the transfer market expected to collapse as a result of Covid-19 and many owners facing significant falls in their wealth, then some clubs could face challenging times ahead, as will of course many other businesses.

image.png.a054ff72bdcfa533c715ad9476310851.png
Palace and Newcastle have not published 2018-19 accounts so 2017-18 figures used
 

If the Premier League is unable to replace the £677m matchday revenue during a season-long lockdown, then there will presumably be more clubs who need to negotiate wage reductions with players or face the possibility of going out of business.

Premier League football is not immune from the virus.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Boyne

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4 hours ago, bisright1 said:

That's why I said cancel the league cup. If I was the 3rd best team in the Championship, 6 points off promotion places. I would rather the best two teams were not in the league next season. So yes, I imagine they should be quite happy.

Your second point does make sense. The PL will still be profitable with all games behind closed doors. But the football league will need fans otherwise it is not going to survive. I don't know how we solve that issue. 

Why?

Your saying the title is givrn, even though its not actually been won. But also saying don't relegate anyone, it's 2 different endings to the season for the different ends of the table, and I can't see how that's right. Either both are completed, Liverpool are awarded the title, and the 3 teams at the bottom go down or no one wins anything and no one is relegated, it can't be a mixture of both. 

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9 minutes ago, dkw said:

Your saying the title is givrn, even though its not actually been won. But also saying don't relegate anyone, it's 2 different endings to the season for the different ends of the table, and I can't see how that's right. Either both are completed, Liverpool are awarded the title, and the 3 teams at the bottom go down or no one wins anything and no one is relegated, it can't be a mixture of both. 

Why?

No one loses out by Liverpool being given an honorary title. Personally I would rather that than listen to them moan for years about how unfair life is. 

But genuine clubs and fans lose out by the relegation. A relegation that no one can agree who should be in it because it's that close. 

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14 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Why?

No one loses out by Liverpool being given an honorary title. Personally I would rather that than listen to them moan for years about how unfair life is. 

But genuine clubs and fans lose out by the relegation. A relegation that no one can agree who should be in it because it's that close. 

But they haven't won it, that's it, you can't just give a title to a team that hasn't won it. Then what about the other leagues, they haven't won it either but do they get awarded it? 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, dkw said:

But they haven't won it, that's it, you can't just give a title to a team that hasn't won it. Then what about the other leagues, they haven't won it either but do they get awarded it? 

Why? I don't care about other leagues, but why can't we award it to a team that hasn't won it. 

The alternative is they are not awarded the title. Can you imagine how insufferable Liverpool fans will be then! Give them their sodding title.

Edited by bisright1

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4 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

Why? I don't care about other leagues, but why can't we award it to a team that hasn't won it. 

The alternative is they are not awarded the title. Can you imagine how insufferable Liverpool fans will be then! Give them their sodding title.

Erm, because they haven't won it... 

And why do you not care about other leagues? Its absolutely much more important they get what they need, they should be the bloody priority in all this as it could see the demise of many great clubs. 

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Would Liverpool accept the title today?

Juventus for example doesn't want to accept the title in this way.

Would Chelsea accept the title in this way if the club were to be in the same situation?

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If during the London Marathon someone is two miles from the finish and way out in front of the rest of the field and there's a bomb scare then the race would be stopped and it would be voided because it hadn't finished. You couldn't just award the race to the guy in front even if he was clearly going to win same goes for Liverpool.

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“Clubs in the top two German divisions have returned 10 positive results from 1,724 coronavirus tests, says the German football league.“


And that’s the risk of football returning. That’s Germany who have it better controlled than us. 

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2 hours ago, dkw said:

Erm, because they haven't won it... 

And why do you not care about other leagues? Its absolutely much more important they get what they need, they should be the bloody priority in all this as it could see the demise of many great clubs. 

I don't care what other leagues do. It has no relevance to this one question. 

In this hypothetical situation the league can award Liverpool the title or they can void it. Doesn't matter what happens elsewhere in any decision. 

I would rather they give it to Liverpool. Because ironically that would end up being more painful to Liverpool fans than if they were denied it. 

 

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